What do you think about guitars during mass?

[albertziggy]

Also that they not be contaminated by the laity. Francis was terrified of the laity. To this day the more traditional communities of Franciscans spend very few hours a day among the laity.

Hi Br. JR:

I am a bit confused. Why should our Father Francis be terrified by contamination by the laity? Is not the world the ‘cloister’ of the Franciscan Family? Franciscans are supposed to immerse themselves in the world to ‘give birth to Christ’ and be a ‘Brother to all’… It was because of Francis’ risk of exposure to the laity that the Order of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance was born.

Thanks.

albertziggy

 

[Sarabande]

JReduction - OT, but the history on the Franciscans is interesting and thank you for that. I was fortunate to have been able to study music in Italy for a summer and stayed in Spoleto which is just the next train stop over from Assisi.

At the Cattedrale di S. Maria in Spoleto, there is a room off the main part of the cathedral. In it houses an actual letter by St. Francis of Assisi. It gave me chills being able to see something written by his hand.

Along the topic of this thread, we had a Franciscan community minister to our rural, mountain farming parish for a couple summers in a row. They came from the neighboring state to help out that part of the diocese as the bishop had thrown the parishes in the farming communities up there in a bit of disarray and turmoil. Very sad, but a totally different topic, so won’t go into it there. One of the things that came out of those problems was that the parish no longer had an organist, as one minute the parish was open, the next minute it was closed and it kept going back and forth - it kind of ruined the parish. There were two particular Franciscans, who decided to have all the parts of the mass chanted in Latin and then any hymn that was sung was a traditional hymn - I remember very clearly that they would choose “All Creatures of Our God and King”. I never experienced Latin chanting with Franciscans before, so now that you have described the history, those two Franciscans, I’m assuming, were unusual. They were also the only Franciscans I met (I don’t know many, so it’s not saying much) who publicly would lay prostrate in front of the Blessed Sacrament after mass. These men were younger, so maybe that was the difference?

 

[pnewton]

I really don’t think your rudeness is necessary. Do I actually have to take such a step as reporting it? Can’t I simply point it out, the way Christians are supposed to before they take it to a needlessly higher level?

I have not been rude to you in the least. I do not know what I have done to deserve all this uncharitable comments, although I suspect it has more to do with you than me. If you wish to point it out, then do so. I truly do not see it, unless you think that disagreeing is rude.

Well, duh, I get that. It was just an example of people not listening to the proper authority, bishops included in those who sometimes don’t listen. And I’ve been in this thread from early on.

“Duh?” Is this an example of the good manners on which you lecture me? Your sentence blurs two issues, one of which has no bearing on this topic. One is the response of the laity. This area has nothing to do with whether we allow guitars.

The second area is the response of the bishops. This was the only area of discussion when you introduced Humane Vitae. I have asked if you knew where the USCCB have contradicted and area of faith and morals, specifically HV. They have not. In areas of discipline, they still are required to do what they are mandated to do. However, there is a procedure for the bishops to use their judgement. They can even petition for indults. This is part of the process. In any case, since guitars are not banned, there is no need for such process.

 

[Cat]

pnewton, if you are rude, then I am positively incorrigible and certain other members (which shall remain nameless!) are sociopathic!

Seriously, you’re one of the most reasonable people on all of CAF, and I always appreciate your calm, well-researched, and well-written posts, even if we happen to disagree.

 

[CTA1967]

pnewton, if you are rude, then I am positively incorrigible and certain other members (which shall remain nameless!) are sociopathic!

Seriously, you’re one of the most reasonable people on all of CAF, and I always appreciate your calm, well-researched, and well-written posts, even if we happen to disagree.

I guess your Garfield comic is an accurate portrayal of what happens online in general.

 

[pnewton]

pnewton, if you are rude, then I am positively incorrigible and certain other members (which shall remain nameless!) are sociopathic!

I get angry and uncharitable, althoug I usually catch myself, but not on this topic. I have even tried a little comic relief because I don’t understand all the friction. This is nothing but a disciplinary issue that could change at any time. I think pretty much all of us would follow in step if any new direcetion is given. We are a rather obedient bunch here, even when we disagree.

 

[JReducation]

Hi Br. JR:

I am a bit confused. Why should our Father Francis be terrified by contamination by the laity? Is not the world the ‘cloister’ of the Franciscan Family? Franciscans are supposed to immerse themselves in the world to ‘give birth to Christ’ and be a ‘Brother to all’… It was because of Francis’ risk of exposure to the laity that the Order of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance was born.

Thanks.

albertziggy

This is avery interesting question that you raise. The history is equally interesting. Let’s just focus on the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. The original rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, which was abrogated by Pope Paul VI, had very strict rules about how the Brothers and Sisters were to engage with the world. If you have a copy of it, observe how they were not to participate in any type of secular recreation. They were not to bear arms for any state or government. They were not to make oaths. They wore the habit of penance. They lived outside of the enclosure, but they surrounded themselves with rules that kept them separate from the secular world. Their presence and their work was the means by which the Gospel was proclaimed, without becoming part of the world around them. The new rule, promulgated by Paul VI in 1978, grants more latitude to the Brothers and Sisters of Penance with respect to their engagement with the secular world than did the original rule written by our holy Father Francis.

The idea was that the entire order was to be a presence in the world, thus we were not to be monks, except for the Poor Clares, but we were to be monastic, keeping a safe distance from secularism. This has not really changed. Even with the reform of the Third Order Rule by Pope Paul VI, the distance between the SFO and secularism must be protected. Of course in Francis’ time there was no such term as secularism. It is not spelled out as clearly. But the concept is there. In Francis’ time, the laity was very absorbed in the things of the world. It was a society of struggle for power on the part of the wealthy and survival on the part of the poor. Francis never wanted any of his brothers and sisters in the middle of that mess or to be contaminated by either group. The focus must always be on the Gospel, not on attaining power by the poor or retaining power by the rich.

I hope this clarifies the meaning of the ancient translators and writers. Bonaventure writes quite well on this concept. If you can get you hand on a book called The Disciple and the Master, it would be wonderful. I’m not sure if it’s still in pring. It’s a collection of Bonaventure’s sermons on Francis’ spirituality and his theology. He speaks of this concern that Francis and he (Bonaventure) shared.

I believe that it’s a legitimate concern even for our day. The issues may have changed, but there is still reason for concern.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

JReduction - OT, but the history on the Franciscans is interesting and thank you for that. I was fortunate to have been able to study music in Italy for a summer and stayed in Spoleto which is just the next train stop over from Assisi.

At the Cattedrale di S. Maria in Spoleto, there is a room off the main part of the cathedral. In it houses an actual letter by St. Francis of Assisi. It gave me chills being able to see something written by his hand.

Along the topic of this thread, we had a Franciscan community minister to our rural, mountain farming parish for a couple summers in a row. They came from the neighboring state to help out that part of the diocese as the bishop had thrown the parishes in the farming communities up there in a bit of disarray and turmoil. Very sad, but a totally different topic, so won’t go into it there. One of the things that came out of those problems was that the parish no longer had an organist, as one minute the parish was open, the next minute it was closed and it kept going back and forth - it kind of ruined the parish. There were two particular Franciscans, who decided to have all the parts of the mass chanted in Latin and then any hymn that was sung was a traditional hymn - I remember very clearly that they would choose “All Creatures of Our God and King”. I never experienced Latin chanting with Franciscans before, so now that you have described the history, those two Franciscans, I’m assuming, were unusual. They were also the only Franciscans I met (I don’t know many, so it’s not saying much) who publicly would lay prostrate in front of the Blessed Sacrament after mass. These men were younger, so maybe that was the difference?

Actually, your friars were not so unique. As I stated before, those brothers who are priests follow the guidelines of the local bishop when working in one of his parishes. So they probably followed the guidelines of the local diocese. As to prostrating before the Blessed Sacrament, that’s a very ancient Franciscan tradition still in practice today. We inherited that from our holy Father Francis. The friars and the nuns still do it. I’m not sure if the Secular Order does it.

As you said in your post, there were many hymns written that have been used by Franciscans that were not Gregorian chant. There was never an exclusive attachment to Gregorian chant in the mass. The custom has been to go with the local diocese when in a diocesan parish. This has not changed. Obedience to the local bishop on matters that affect the bishop’s parishes is binding to the friars, without question. Some people are bothered by the last part of that statement, “without question”. But that’s the way it is spelled out in the Rule of St. Francis, even for the Secular Franciscans.

In my diocese the Secular Franciscans are submissive to the local bishop and he has them all involved in working in Respect Life along with the brothers, prison ministry, and retreat ministry. These were the conditions under which the Secular Franciscans were allowed to enter the diocese, that they serve the needs of the diocese. Because they are a real religious order, they must comply with canon law as any other religious order.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EasterJoy]

I have no problem with guitars, assuming the playing is done so it does not distract from the Mass. When I am out of town with the family, we visit a church in a vacation town. The music is exclusively guitar. It is done reverently, though perhaps too loudly.

The issue that worries me is turning the sacred into performance. The Mass is not intended for our entertainment.

I know what you mean. Performance for the sake of the sacred is fine, as long as it is not secular performance that is more entertainment than prayer.

After all, “Silent Night” was composed for the guitar, because the organ was broken. Let’s face it: some parishes have either organs or organists that make you wish the organ was broken. In that case, Franz Gruber’s guitar music would certainly be OK!

I got this history from icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME02/Silent_Night_History.shtml, and the thought of having been there makes me sigh:
“Christmas Eve 1818. In 1818 the carol “Stille Nacht! Heilige Nacht” was heard for the first time in a village church in Oberndorf, Austria. The congregation at that Midnight Mass in St. Nicholas Church listened as the voices of the assistant pastor, Father Joseph Mohr, and the choir director, Franz Xaver Gruber, rang through the church to the accompaniment of Father Mohr’s guitar. On each of the six verses, the choir repeated the last two lines in four-part harmony. On that Christmas Eve, a song was born that would wing its way into the hearts of people throughout the world. Now translated into hundreds of languages, it is sung by untold millions every December from small chapels in the Andes to great cathedrals in Antwerp and Rome.”

So I think that we ought to be able to agree that it is not the guitar that is the offender here, but the musical genres that musicians try to make sound sacred on the guitar, in vain.

 

[pnewton]

After all, “Silent Night” was composed for the guitar, because the organ was broken. Let’s face it: some parishes have either organs or organists that make you wish the organ was broken. In that case, Franz Gruber’s guitar music would certainly be OK!

Sabatoge maybe?

 

[JReducation]

Sabatoge maybe?

LOL I don’t know about sabbotage. I attended a mass at St. Peter’s Basilica when I was a student in Rome. I’ll never forget it. It was midnight mass. The music was in Latin, chant, organ, etc. The whole works, except one problem. There must have been something wrong with the sound system, because you could not hear it. It sounded like it was coming from the other side. It was spooky. I’ve attended mass there many times and I have had a bad experience with the music. But that year it was creepy. You felt that you wanted to bang on the ceiling and tell the upstairs neighbor to knock it off, because that’s what it sounded like, when you hear someone else’s music through a distance.

Goes to show you, strange things can happen even at the Vatican.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[EasterJoy]

Sabatoge maybe?

Good ends are not arrived at by evil means. You just have to pray the poor thing gives out.

It is not evil to give able guitarists direction so that they can ably replace a disabled organ, though.

 

[benedictgal]

Good ends are not arrived at by evil means. You just have to pray the poor thing gives out.

It is not evil to give able guitarists direction so that they can ably replace a disabled organ, though.

Although, I can tell you from personal experience, the folks in my dad’s former parish are very capable of singing acapella when either the organ has died or they did not have an organist that evening. In my own parish, when we have had no choir and no musician, we have done very well on our own.

The traditional hymns are not very difficult to sing without accompanyment. In fact, they sound rather well, and, as I have seen and heard, and can personally attest to, people will sing. We should not underestimate what they can do.

 

[Gertabelle]

Let’s face it: some parishes have either organs or organists that make you wish the organ was broken.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Um, oh, I mean resent that remark

 

[JReducation]

I know what you mean. Performance for the sake of the sacred is fine, as long as it is not secular performance that is more entertainment than prayer.
After all, “Silent Night” was composed for the guitar, because the organ was broken. Let’s face it: some parishes have either organs or organists that make you wish the organ was broken. In that case, Franz Gruber’s guitar music would certainly be OK!

I got this history from icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME02/Silent_Night_History.shtml, and the thought of having been there makes me sigh:
“Christmas Eve 1818. In 1818 the carol “Stille Nacht! Heilige Nacht” was heard for the first time in a village church in Oberndorf, Austria. The congregation at that Midnight Mass in St. Nicholas Church listened as the voices of the assistant pastor, Father Joseph Mohr, and the choir director, Franz Xaver Gruber, rang through the church to the accompaniment of Father Mohr’s guitar. On each of the six verses, the choir repeated the last two lines in four-part harmony. On that Christmas Eve, a song was born that would wing its way into the hearts of people throughout the world. Now translated into hundreds of languages, it is sung by untold millions every December from small chapels in the Andes to great cathedrals in Antwerp and Rome.”

So I think that we ought to be able to agree that it is not the guitar that is the offender here, but the musical genres that musicians try to make sound sacred on the guitar, in vain.

The bold is mine.

I believe this is the point. Liturgical music must be just that, liturgical. It’s purpose must be to pray, not to entertain or send one on an emotional trip or high. That is not prayer. You have the right of it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[albertziggy]

This is avery interesting question that you raise. The history is equally interesting. Let’s just focus on the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. The original rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, which was abrogated by Pope Paul VI, had very strict rules about how the Brothers and Sisters were to engage with the world. If you have a copy of it, observe how they were not to participate in any type of secular recreation. They were not to bear arms for any state or government. They were not to make oaths. They wore the habit of penance. They lived outside of the enclosure, but they surrounded themselves with rules that kept them separate from the secular world. Their presence and their work was the means by which the Gospel was proclaimed, without becoming part of the world around them. The new rule, promulgated by Paul VI in 1978, grants more latitude to the Brothers and Sisters of Penance with respect to their engagement with the secular world than did the original rule written by our holy Father Francis.

The idea was that the entire order was to be a presence in the world, thus we were not to be monks, except for the Poor Clares, but we were to be monastic, keeping a safe distance from secularism. This has not really changed. Even with the reform of the Third Order Rule by Pope Paul VI, the distance between the SFO and secularism must be protected. Of course in Francis’ time there was no such term as secularism. It is not spelled out as clearly. But the concept is there. In Francis’ time, the laity was very absorbed in the things of the world. It was a society of struggle for power on the part of the wealthy and survival on the part of the poor. Francis never wanted any of his brothers and sisters in the middle of that mess or to be contaminated by either group. The focus must always be on the Gospel, not on attaining power by the poor or retaining power by the rich.

I hope this clarifies the meaning of the ancient translators and writers. Bonaventure writes quite well on this concept. If you can get you hand on a book called The Disciple and the Master, it would be wonderful. I’m not sure if it’s still in pring. It’s a collection of Bonaventure’s sermons on Francis’ spirituality and his theology. He speaks of this concern that Francis and he (Bonaventure) shared.

I believe that it’s a legitimate concern even for our day. The issues may have changed, but there is still reason for concern.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Hi Br JR:

Wow! Many thanks for the clarification! I am really learning a lot from you! Thanks also for the reference on Bonaventure. Will try to look for it in the library.

In Christ,

albertziggy

 

[Bluegoat]

Although, I can tell you from personal experience, the folks in my dad’s former parish are very capable of singing acapella when either the organ has died or they did not have an organist that evening. In my own parish, when we have had no choir and no musician, we have done very well on our own.

The traditional hymns are not very difficult to sing without accompanyment. In fact, they sound rather well, and, as I have seen and heard, and can personally attest to, people will sing. We should not underestimate what they can do.

Ha, you should try my old parish. Hymns used to die out in the middle because they no longer resembled anything like music! And these were easy, familiar hymns.

 

[Bluegoat]

Sabatoge maybe?

At a college chapel I know that will remain nameless, there was once a decision to have all of the servers wear white lace gloves.

The gloves mysteriously disappeared, never to be seen again. According to legend, they are still somewhere in the sacristy.

 

[EvelynEVF]

One thing I’ve noticed about tunes, along the lines of what benedictgal writes: We sing the traditional hymns in the back of LotH to begin daily Mass and prayer. I can sight read everything in there. I’ve never had an issue with that music, and often I can anticipate what will come next, like a poetic form or something. We do it a cappella, and with the exception of a couple people who couldn’t sing anything no matter how much help they had, we do fine.

The more modern stuff has more complex rhythms, more syncopation, and unexpected intervals. It’s much harder to sight read or anticipate, so it would be much harder to carry the tunes unaccompanied. Many seem to be written more for performance than congregational singing. Even when there are musicians, there are a couple songs I’ve heard at each of several Masses where each choir group does the rhythm and sometimes even the notes differently. It does me no good even if I can sight read it, because they aren’t actually following the music!

So I think a cappella and traditional music will have to go hand in hand. Or at least traditional music first, before instruments disappear.

 

[Bluegoat]

One thing I’ve noticed about tunes, along the lines of what benedictgal writes: We sing the traditional hymns in the back of LotH to begin daily Mass and prayer. I can sight read everything in there. I’ve never had an issue with that music, and often I can anticipate what will come next, like a poetic form or something. We do it a cappella, and with the exception of a couple people who couldn’t sing anything no matter how much help they had, we do fine.

The more modern stuff has more complex rhythms, more syncopation, and unexpected intervals. It’s much harder to sight read or anticipate, so it would be much harder to carry the tunes unaccompanied. Many seem to be written more for performance than congregational singing. Even when there are musicians, there are a couple songs I’ve heard at each of several Masses where each choir group does the rhythm and sometimes even the notes differently. It does me no good even if I can sight read it, because they aren’t actually following the music!

So I think a cappella and traditional music will have to go hand in hand. Or at least traditional music first, before instruments disappear.

I have noticed this a lot too. Many modern songs sung in church seem very irregular and difficult for someone who can’t sight read at least a bit. Some are also vocally difficult. I tend to think they were not intended for congregational singing, but rather for a choir. Someone has chosen them inappropriately.

On the other hand, there are some modern hymns that are just lame, musically, they are easy to sing, but have no spirit. I think they are just bad songs.

That isn’t really confined to modern stuff though. I remember going through an old Victorian hymn book with a friend one to find music for a hymn-sing. There was a ton of lame stuff, and not surprisingly, most is never used anymore. The main difference was that instead of sounding like an anti-depressant commercial like the modern lame stuff, they sounded like something from a really uninspired temperance meeting.