What do you think about guitars during mass?

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At a college chapel I know that will remain nameless, there was once a decision to have all of the servers wear white lace gloves.

The gloves mysteriously disappeared, never to be seen again. According to legend, they are still somewhere in the sacristy.
I have heard of certain sacred artworks disappearing during remodels, too. I am sure there are “treasures” in the walls and under the floorboards of churches around the world!

There are probably a few organs missing vital parts for similar reasons! 😃
(I can only imagine what would happen if some guitarists didn’t take their instruments home with them! 😉 )
 
I am a big fan of the organ. I feel this is a very good way to celebrate the mass. I wish the organist at my Church would play it more instead of the piano.

What do you think about pianos, guitars, and etc. in place of the organ?

Could anyone see these instruments as dangerous?

Some opinions that I have heard is that the guitar symbolizes a sinful musical genre (rock-and-roll) and the instrument is simply not reverent enough. I personally cannot see any problem with using these for worship as long as the tabernacle is not in the same room!!!

God Bless
I think any **instrument used to help give God glory is okay! 👍
 
I think **an****y instrument used to help give God glory is okay! 👍
However, while that approach may work for Protestant ecclesial communities, it is not that way with the Church. Our form of worsihip is cultic and sacrificial, with norms and rubrics that are centuries old and based, in part, on what was used by Ancient Israel in her sacrificial Temple worship.

Because the Mass is the Church’s greatest prayer, care must be taken to ensure that it is celebrated worthily and with all of the sacredness this liturgy requires. That is why we cannot take an “anything goes” approach when it comes to the Mass.
 
However, while that approach may work for Protestant ecclesial communities, it is not that way with the Church. Our form of worsihip is cultic and sacrificial, with norms and rubrics that are centuries old and based, in part, on what was used by Ancient Israel in her sacrificial Temple worship.

Because the Mass is the Church’s greatest prayer, care must be taken to ensure that it is celebrated worthily and with all of the sacredness this liturgy requires. That is why we cannot take an “anything goes” approach when it comes to the Mass.
Did they have an organ when the church was started? If it were that big a deal whether a guitar or an organ or piano or whatever instrument were used, then wouldn’t their be a rule in place from the Vatican? I think it all is just a matter of personal preference. The same music can be played with a guitar as an organ.
 
Did they have an organ when the church was started? If it were that big a deal whether a guitar or an organ or piano or whatever instrument were used, then wouldn’t their be a rule in place from the Vatican? I think it all is just a matter of personal preference. The same music can be played with a guitar as an organ.
No. It is not a matter of personal opinion. As you are not yet Catholic, you would not be expected to understand that. I can understand your stance based on your current situation. However, what happens during the Mass is incompatible with the form of worship engaged by the Protestant ecclesial communities. Protestant ecclesial communities have only the Word. The Church has both the Word and the Sacrifice. There is also a high degree of sacredness involved. The music has to fit what goes on during the Mass, not the other way around.

Had you read through the entire thread, you would have seen that there are statements issued by the Holy See, including documents written by the Popes on this very matter.

The same piece of music cannot be played with a guitar as it would be on the organ. Sacred music written for the organ does not translate well on the guitar.
 
Excuse my ignorance. I am just trying to say that guitars *can *be played with reverence at Mass. They do it at my Catholic Church and it sounds very nice.
 
sckcd,

Same yourself some time.

Read post #391.

When this thread got confusing, I asked my bishop. I was referred to one of his staff, who sent me a very kind email, which I posted in this thread (Post #391).

Catholics are in submission to their bishops. We do no wrong to obey our bishops. As far as I’m concerned, the priest who answered my question assured me that pianos and guitars are allowed at Mass, at least in our diocese. Because the Conference of Bishops approved their use, they are no doubt allowed in many other dioceses.

People who try to tell you that these two instruments can’t be used are interpreting the documents themselves instead of relying on their bishops to interpret the documents. My feeling is, we do no wrong when we obey our bishops. We take a chance on doing wrong by going outside of what our bishops say.
 
Excuse my ignorance. I am just trying to say that guitars *can *be played with reverence at Mass. They do it at my Catholic Church and it sounds very nice.
Please, also, excuse me if I sounded as though I was bringing down the liturgical hammer on you. That is why I qualified what I wrote as trying to understand you from your background. By the way, welcome to the Church.

The organ remains the instrument that has the pride of place in the Church. Earlier in this thread, I don’t remember how many pages earlier, Sarabande posted an article written by our currently Pope, Benedict XVI, back when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, on the importance of the organ. Reading this piece might give you some insight as to why some of us on this thread don’t really think much of guitars during the Mass.

Although Cat wrote to her bishop, the response that she received from the direcror of worshiop for her diocese is relevent to only her diocese. What is okay in one area, may not be so in another. Furthermore, the reply coming from the director, as I read it, left out a very key provision in the responsem coming from Musicam Sacram, an authoritative document issued by the Holy See:
  1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44
This key phrase was missing in the response that the priest, who serves as the director of worship for Cat’s diocese, gave to Cat. I respect the practice going on in Cat’s diocese. It may be similar to what happens in other dioceses. However, what happens in Cat’s diocese may differ from what happens in a diocese that is next to hers, another diocese in the same state, or a diocese clear across the world. The only one who can make something universal is the Holy Father, acting through and with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

Something else to consider is the mischaracterization here in this particular thread that disagreeing with one’s bishop equates with disobedience. We can charitably disagree with our own bishop on matters such as instruments being used for the Mass, but, not disobey. Just because a bishop allows guitars in the Mass, that does not mean that we should ditch the organ completely. “Allow” does not equate to “require”. Now, if the bishop were to allow something that is squarely contrary to what the authoritative documents of the Holy See say (such as prohibiting the use of Latin in the Mass or even prohibiting the celebrant from saying Mass facing the altar), then one can charitably point out the error. If the bishop remains obstinate, then, one writes to Rome, for the practice that the bishop is engaging in is wrong. Obedience also flows both ways. Just as we are expected to be obedient to the bishop, he, too, owes his obedience to the Holy Father.

Sadly, two of the big publishing companies have composers who primarily write their pieces with something other than the organ in mind. Between GIA and OCP, OCP, in my opinion, is the worst. Very little of its modern stuff is suited for the organ. Thus, when you have publishing houses promoting bad music, the parishes who subscribe to these services are often stuck with the chaff. Unfortunately, while you can put on the most expensive Chanel lipstick on a pig, it’s still a sow, only with she’s wearing top dollar lipstick.

This may sound harsh, but, we need to look at our Church’s liturgical roots and her strong Tradition. Gregorian Chant, which some have panned here and in other threads, actually takes its roots and form from Ancient Israel. Ancient Israel, as part of her worship, chanted the psalms. Jesus was very familiar with this form of prayer. In fact, the accounts of the Last Supper allude to that. When it notes that they “sang a hymn of praise” as they were walking to the Kidron Valley, they were chanting one of the psalms.

The Church is the New Israel. Not only did she appropriate the form of the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel (in the perfected from which Jesus instituted on Holy Thursday), she also approrpiated the chanting of the pslams.
 
This key phrase was missing in the response that the priest, who serves as the director of worship for Cat’s diocese, gave to Cat.
I still think you’re blowing that out of proportion. If I recall correctly, Cat said the documents were given to her in links, which would mean that she copied short excerpts from those websites.

But I also don’t think that “anything goes.”
I don’t think it’s so much a controversy over whether we should be reverent or not, but rather how we should go about being reverent. This thread shows how we can agree on certain ideals, but disagree on the precise details. And I realize that as a clarinetist at mass, I have a responsibility to support the worship rather than drown it out, as so many of the documents we posted state. Although, if I may say so myself, the clarinet is a difficult instrument to do any drowning out with. 😉

Edit: Going back to the actual title of the thread (I’d kind of forgotten it :p), I’ll add that I’m also a self-taught guitarist. However, I’ve never really thought of playing the guitar myself at mass, as I’m mostly familiar with blues-rock and progressive rock styles of playing.
 
I have not been rude to you in the least. I do not know what I have done to deserve all this uncharitable comments, although I suspect it has more to do with you than me. If you wish to point it out, then do so. I truly do not see it, unless you think that disagreeing is rude.

“Duh?” Is this an example of the good manners on which you lecture me? Your sentence blurs two issues, one of which has no bearing on this topic. One is the response of the laity. This area has nothing to do with whether we allow guitars.

The second area is the response of the bishops. This was the only area of discussion when you introduced Humane Vitae. I have asked if you knew where the USCCB have contradicted and area of faith and morals, specifically HV. They have not. In areas of discipline, they still are required to do what they are mandated to do. However, there is a procedure for the bishops to use their judgement. They can even petition for indults. This is part of the process. In any case, since guitars are not banned, there is no need for such process.
Perhaps reading your words on the screen, without benefit of hearing your voice or seeing your expression, gave me the impression that you were being rude when you were merely being blunt or abrupt. I don’t know. Seemed rude to me. Perhaps I misinterpreted or misread your tone. That’s easy to do when all you have to go on are written words. The “well, duh” was in response to how I “heard” the words. If I was wrong, then I apologize. I don’t know you, I don’t know how you usually talk or write, I was going on how it seemed to me.

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I never said that the USCCB did anything, one way or the other. I don’t remember even bringing them up. I mentioned bishops, who are human and, as with other humans, capable of being more or less obedient to Rome. I have had experience of this and have heard from others who have also. I certainly am not accusing the USCCB of anything. I do think that disobedience or rebellion and even resistance to Rome is a problem in this country, the only one I’ve been to, the one I live in. I think that this rebellion and resistance is exceedingly relevant to the specific topic of guitars at Mass and to the state of liturgical worship here in general.

We disagree. I am willing to leave it at that.
 
Sacred music written for the organ does not translate well on the guitar.
One would need to be an expert guitarist and musician to make this assertion.

We have had this discussion several times before over a particular piece of Advent music!

A reasonable portion of what many people think is “sacred music writen for organ” in terms of hymn tunes in fact came from origins that had nothing whatsoever to do with the organ in the first place. Folk tunes, Genevan psalter tunes, chant hymns, Playford dances …

Much traditional church hymnody in fact works very well on a guitar played by someone with sufficiently broad musical experience to know how to pull it off. It will not work for a cathedral-sized congregations and I would never even attempt such a thing. It works very well in smaller-scale settings with musicians who know that they are doing and know when their approach works and when it does not.

If you wish to assert that you have heard guitarists play “organ music” badly and therefore this proves it is not possible for a guitarist to play traditional music well, then I will find you any number of recordings you like that, on the same logical basis, prove that it is not possible for a tenor to sing Nessun Dorma successfully.
 
One would need to be an expert guitarist and musician to make this assertion.

We have had this discussion several times before over a particular piece of Advent music!

A reasonable portion of what many people think is “sacred music writen for organ” in terms of hymn tunes in fact came from origins that had nothing whatsoever to do with the organ in the first place. Folk tunes, Genevan psalter tunes, chant hymns, Playford dances …

Much traditional church hymnody in fact works very well on a guitar played by someone with sufficiently broad musical experience to know how to pull it off. It will not work for a cathedral-sized congregations and I would never even attempt such a thing. It works very well in smaller-scale settings with musicians who know that they are doing and know when their approach works and when it does not.

If you wish to assert that you have heard guitarists play “organ music” badly and therefore this proves it is not possible for a guitarist to play traditional music well, then I will find you any number of recordings you like that, on the same logical basis, prove that it is not possible for a tenor to sing Nessun Dorma successfully.
Let me explain. The “Attende Domine” is chant, but, it translates well into the organ. But, when strummed on the guitar (and I have heard it), it sounds really bad. I had told the youth leader at the Cursillo to not play the guitar for that particular hymn because it sounds better either with the organ or without. Ditto for “O Sun of Justice” and “O Come, O Come Emmanuel”.

Conversely, as much as I cannot stand “They’ll Know We are Christians”, it was meant for the guitar. Played on the organ, as I heard it Saturday night, it sounds terrible, as does an equally bad song, “Pan de Vida.”
 
One would need to be an expert guitarist and musician to make this assertion.

We have had this discussion several times before over a particular piece of Advent music!

A reasonable portion of what many people think is “sacred music writen for organ” in terms of hymn tunes in fact came from origins that had nothing whatsoever to do with the organ in the first place. Folk tunes, Genevan psalter tunes, chant hymns, Playford dances …

Much traditional church hymnody in fact works very well on a guitar played by someone with sufficiently broad musical experience to know how to pull it off. It will not work for a cathedral-sized congregations and I would never even attempt such a thing. It works very well in smaller-scale settings with musicians who know that they are doing and know when their approach works and when it does not.
To a certain, significant extent, this is true. There were many compositions (hymns and certain organ instrumentals works) written specifically for organ, but many others had been transcribed for organ and sometimes for other instruments. For instance, people tend to think that the popular piece used for weddings “Trumpet Voluntary” was written for organ and trumpet, when in actuality it was written for orchestra and later transcribed for organ or organ and trumpet. Another popular piece is Bach’s “Herz und Mund and Tat and Leben” aka “Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring” (Not the literal translation, but known by English speakers as such). The chorale was originally scored for voices and a typical, small baroque orchestra, yet it has been transcribed by various editors for organ and piano as well as guitar – which can sound absolutely lovely on guitar IF played by an accomplished musician and that extends to any kind of instrument. I’ve had to deal with lousy “musicians” in general who couldn’t play the transcriptions of that work either on piano or organ and it is torture trying to work with them. The transcription I have of it, and many others have, consists of triplets upon triplets and it has occurred to me that non-musicians or lesser instrumentalists can’t play, or have a difficult time of playing triplets like that in succession.

I think a major component of something sounding “right” with a different instrument depends on the transcriber. For instance, I have a number of vocal scores that have reduced accompaniments from orchestra to a piano or an organ. Some of the reductions you can tell was not done by someone who understands how to play the piano or organ. The musician who did the reduction is talented and able, but he/she might have been a string musician. Now if the musician understands the instrument he/she is transcribing for, you will be able to tell. It’s sort of like someone who writes for the voice, but doesn’t have enough experience to know how the voice works, the different vocal ranges, how something would sound with various intervals, etc. When my husband first started composing art songs for me, he didn’t understand this either and so I helped him with this, especially for my specific vocal range and fach.

Also, certain works just don’t transcribe well for the new instrument(s). It’s sometimes because the timbre of the instrument just doesn’t sound right or if the transcriber has to change the key it was originally in to work with a certain instrument, the key just doesn’t work. I love Albinoni’s second movement from one of his Oboe Concerto in D minor. It’s one of my favorite works, but transcribing it for organ and trumpet wouldn’t provide the right textures and sounds that you would hear with the oboe and orchestra. One could even try it for oboe and organ, but then the organ would have work hard at playing soft enough to not drown out the oboe, that you would lose the intricacies in the “orchestral” accompaniment that Albinoni intended for the listener to hear.

In regards to what is often heard at mass, though, is that the tendency is not hearing an accomplished guitarist play. Many of the ones I’ve experienced had little or no training and they were not able to successfully transcribe a piece of sheet music written or transcribed for piano or organ without making it sound “cheesed out”. I think this is what benedictgal might be referring to. (If I’m wrong, Benedictgal, please correct me.) She has probably heard untrained or little-trained guitar players make a dog’s breakfast out of organ/piano sheet music for hymns or a poorly transcribed piece of sheet music for guitar. If there were more well-trained guitarist musicians like you playing at mass, it would be a different story, because there is that reality in certain parishes and areas where a parish doesn’t have an organ or piano, or an organ out of commission, or an accomplished organist/pianist in their parish.
 
“Strumming” on the guitar is key, here. Too many people, in a number of settings, think that if they can strum a dozen chords, they know how to play the guitar. Makes me want to bang my head against the wall.
 
“Strumming” on the guitar is key, here. Too many people, in a number of settings, think that if they can strum a dozen chords, they know how to play the guitar. Makes me want to bang my head against the wall.
OTOH, church musicians have to start somewhere.

I started playing the piano in church when I was in 6th grade. (Protestant). I didn’t know how to sight-read yet (I didn’t start taking piano lessons until I was in 3rd grade), so the music minister would give me the hymns the week before and I would practice them.

I must have sounded quite awful, compared to the experienced gospel pianists who usually played in our church.

But the church allowed me to sound awful so that I would gain the experience and eventually sound awesome.

One of the things they did was schedule me to play during the Sunday evening vesper service, which even way back then was very casual compared to the Sunday morning worship services. Most of the people who came to Sunday evening services were elderly people who loved to encourage young people and who were willing to overlook a wooden style and a few missed notes.

Also, the song leaders made sure not to throw anything at me at the last minute, although eventually, as I improved, the song leaders would ask for requests, and when I stared at them with a deer in the headlight look, they would tell me to just play the right hand.

Another thing that helped me to learn to play for congregational singing is my piano teacher, who was the church organist/pianist/choir director for one of our largest Lutheran churches for over 30 years. SHE trained me to play in church and found opportunities for me to play. My first “job” was playing at a United Brethren Church on the other side of town–I was paid $5.00 a week.

My point is, everyone starts out with a certain lack of experience and expertise. Now I realize that perhaps the Holy Mass is NOT the appropriate place to “practice” and gain experience. But most Catholic churches do not seem to have a lot of other venues for children, teenagers, and new musicians to “practice.” There are no “Singspirations”–I think there should be. In the old days, the Catholic Churches created the “oratory,” during which music was played and sung without a Mass. I wish that Catholic Churches would do this.

Another possibility is that a child, teenager, or new musician with little skill can find a gig in the Protestant churches in the area, and learn how to play well, and then come back to the Catholic Church. Of course, there is quite a bit of risk in that approach.

What I’m saying here is that the ONLY way to gain experience and skill accompanying congregational music on ANY instrument is to accompany congregational music. You cannot practice this at home in your living room, or in an empty sanctuary during the week, or strumming the guitar down at the lagoon for a group of admiring businesspeople on lunch break.

You have to practice by actually doing it.

But what I’m hearing some of you say is that in order to please the liturgical requirements of the Catholic Mass, a musician must already be an “expert,” especially if they play the guitar. They aren’t allowed to strum for awhile, and then gradually, over the course of months or YEARS, learn to add the plucking skills.

Is it any wonder that there are so few musicians who are willing to step up and say, “I’m not very good, but I’ll be happy to play the best I can at Mass to serve Jesus and His people.”

We drive them out.

Interestinly, at the beginning of the year, our parish (over 7000 people) hired a new organist who was frankly, awful. Just awful. He didn’t even know the liturgy and would blast out at the wrong time.

Some people in the Church were calling for his resignation (before he even had a chance to improve.)

I didn’t enjoy listening to him, but I tried not to criticize him. And you know something? He’s improved immensely as he’s gotten a lot of practice playing for up to eight Mass every weekend, plus funerals and weddings. He plays beautiful preludes and postludes, and is gradually learning to accompany not only a cantor, but also a congregation. Give him another year, and I think he’ll be quite lovely to listen to.

But we have to give him that year without complaining about his deficiencies. And frankly, I think that we need to compliment him more to let him know that his efforts are paying off.
 
OTOH, church musicians have to start somewhere.

I started playing the piano in church when I was in 6th grade. (Protestant). I didn’t know how to sight-read yet (I didn’t start taking piano lessons until I was in 3rd grade), so the music minister would give me the hymns the week before and I would practice them.

I must have sounded quite awful, compared to the experienced gospel pianists who usually played in our church.

But the church allowed me to sound awful so that I would gain the experience and eventually sound awesome.

One of the things they did was schedule me to play during the Sunday evening vesper service, which even way back then was very casual compared to the Sunday morning worship services. Most of the people who came to Sunday evening services were elderly people who loved to encourage young people and who were willing to overlook a wooden style and a few missed notes.

Also, the song leaders made sure not to throw anything at me at the last minute, although eventually, as I improved, the song leaders would ask for requests, and when I stared at them with a deer in the headlight look, they would tell me to just play the right hand.

Another thing that helped me to learn to play for congregational singing is my piano teacher, who was the church organist/pianist/choir director for one of our largest Lutheran churches for over 30 years. SHE trained me to play in church and found opportunities for me to play. My first “job” was playing at a United Brethren Church on the other side of town–I was paid $5.00 a week.

My point is, everyone starts out with a certain lack of experience and expertise. Now I realize that perhaps the Holy Mass is NOT the appropriate place to “practice” and gain experience. But most Catholic churches do not seem to have a lot of other venues for children, teenagers, and new musicians to “practice.” There are no “Singspirations”–I think there should be. In the old days, the Catholic Churches created the “oratory,” during which music was played and sung without a Mass. I wish that Catholic Churches would do this.

Another possibility is that a child, teenager, or new musician with little skill can find a gig in the Protestant churches in the area, and learn how to play well, and then come back to the Catholic Church. Of course, there is quite a bit of risk in that approach.

What I’m saying here is that the ONLY way to gain experience and skill accompanying congregational music on ANY instrument is to accompany congregational music. You cannot practice this at home in your living room, or in an empty sanctuary during the week, or strumming the guitar down at the lagoon for a group of admiring businesspeople on lunch break.

You have to practice by actually doing it.

But what I’m hearing some of you say is that in order to please the liturgical requirements of the Catholic Mass, a musician must already be an “expert,” especially if they play the guitar. They aren’t allowed to strum for awhile, and then gradually, over the course of months or YEARS, learn to add the plucking skills.

Is it any wonder that there are so few musicians who are willing to step up and say, “I’m not very good, but I’ll be happy to play the best I can at Mass to serve Jesus and His people.”

We drive them out.

Interestinly, at the beginning of the year, our parish (over 7000 people) hired a new organist who was frankly, awful. Just awful. He didn’t even know the liturgy and would blast out at the wrong time.

Some people in the Church were calling for his resignation (before he even had a chance to improve.)

I didn’t enjoy listening to him, but I tried not to criticize him. And you know something? He’s improved immensely as he’s gotten a lot of practice playing for up to eight Mass every weekend, plus funerals and weddings. He plays beautiful preludes and postludes, and is gradually learning to accompany not only a cantor, but also a congregation. Give him another year, and I think he’ll be quite lovely to listen to.

But we have to give him that year without complaining about his deficiencies. And frankly, I think that we need to compliment him more to let him know that his efforts are paying off.
Good points. As one who plays the hated bass guitar and hated pop styles rather then high Church music I give my experience. I was working the sound board, an ex school sax player who was asked to step up on bass when our keyboard and bass players left for school. My contribution was to play the root of the chord and keep a steady beat no more was asked of me as our guitarist and drummer filled the sound.

Sort of like the start up church in Robert Duvall’s movie The Apostle our church families are accepting of the praise leaders lack of technical skill.
 
OTOH, church musicians have to start somewhere.

… Edited rest of post by me…
Cat - I don’t disagree with you in regards to that. We all started out as a beginner musician at mass or service, and I have no problem with that. I totally understand giving a person a year to improve and get used to what they’re doing. That is common courtesy at most churches. You are right, that is how we learn and gain experience. But, with the examples you gave, it appears that everyone continued their studies and practice - such as yourself, the organist that was hired at that church, etc.

Many organists I know began playing for their parishes at young ages - around 8 to 10, so it is not unusual. What they would play were works which they could do well and nothing too difficult. Ones I knew started out with simple Bach organ pieces at 10 and the simple traditional hymns and then moved on to more complex organ works as they got older. I’ve worked with some very talented teenage organists who would substitute to get their chops in and what was so important was that they were musicians - they could play the music as written, with a steady rhythm, etc. Sometimes, the logistics of forgetting to come in right away with the acclamations or maybe playing a little too loudly because they weren’t used to the organ were a slight issue, but something that was usually improved upon. It’s easy to “forgive”, for lack of a better word, because I don’t want it to seem as if they were being criticized. I was always happy to give them pointers and make them feel better, especially if the pastor or another priest would storm upstairs and yell at them for playing prelude music during confessions (something the poor kid was not aware of at the time - the music director had forgotten to tell the kid) or didn’t come in on the acclamations right away, etc.

When I began cantoring masses, I basically sang simple hymns, later joining choirs that required more training and then also working on more complex sacred vocal music. Sometimes I’d forget to bring people in or maybe sang a wrong note or skipped a line during the psalm and so on and so forth when I first began. I’m definitely not perfect now and I still make a mistake once in a while. You know, sometimes early in the morning, your head just isn’t working right and your brain doesn’t communicate with what you see on the page. As a first year music teacher, I felt like I was all thumbs when I began and then got my feet grounded as the year went on and then the following year was soooo much easier. We all go through that.

I can only speak for myself, but most of the time, at least from what I’ve experienced, many guitar players and even organ players (I worked with one who was an arrogant and pompous person, he literally only had one and a half organ lessons and never practiced - thus I would never call him an “organist”.) do not pursue any real lessons. Some don’t even care if they make mistakes or they’re in denial about making mistakes - so they never improve themselves. Many of the guitarists I worked with at masses and met were self-taught, so they basically knew how to strum and some were indignant about ever taking lessons. They didn’t think they needed it.

----- Just to make clear - I never made an indication to them about taking lessons, they just would give that info to me. For some reason, people, even people I just meet, have this tendency of wanting to tell me everything about themselves - sometimes more info than I want to know, if you know what I mean. 😛 I know how to act like a professional in these situations and treat them with respect. I’m not even the kind who asks other musicians where they studied and who they studied with. I don’t like doing that. It doesn’t matter to me how they got their training - as long as they are good musicians - because I’ve worked with organists and other instrumentalists who touted their PhDs and expertise, but they couldn’t play worth you-know-what and then worked with incredible classically trained musicians who never got their college degrees or went to any kind of conservatory but can play those PhDs under the table. ------

So, basically, you are left with these people who play instruments, but really don’t improve through the years because they never try to get further along with their abilities. I think these are the kinds some of the people are talking about here.
 
Consider, I believe the talk is about a pipe organ, not an electronic keyboard with an organ setting. By its natural it is immobile built for a specific building. As the Church mandates certain things happen within the building I can see how it will try to avoid things with mobility and able to be of dual usage.
Interesting, the only church within 5-10 miles of my house that has a real pipe organ in a Methodist church. But in those 5-10 miles there are at least 4 Catholic churches. There is a pipe organ in a Catholic church about 15 miles away and one at the Cathedral about 20 miles away.

But I agree with the commenter who says that inanimate things are morally nuetral.
 
Sarabande makes an important distinction. People who are learning are supposed to be practicing outside of the performance venue. Accompanying is hard even when you know the music already. The kids at school Mass will experiment with chanting the psalm and that sort of thing, so maybe there is a precedent for making it a learning experience. A Singspiration would be a wonderful thing, and a good chance to gain familiarity with hymns outside the usual repertoire, too.
 
On the rare occasion that we don’t have an organist, our cantor plays the guitar. Although I prefer the organ, it’s better than no instrument at all!
 
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