What do you think about guitars during mass?

[benedictgal]

Or the ballgame or a horror movie, or for me specifically, the skating rink.

Real sacred. I can just feel the reverence.

It’s all personal opinion. And fortunately, the Catholic Church does not base its teachings on the whims of personal opinion. “An adult faith does not follow the waves of fashion and the latest novelty.” (Or also the most ancient novelty.)

Those of you who inspired captainbernie to quit playing guitar in his local Mass have an awful lot to answer for. Silencing someone who is using a gift from the Lord is serious business.

I agree, the statement about concentrating on the Sacrifice instead of strumming folk hymns is absolutely insulting, and calls into question everything this poster has ever said. As a pianist in Mass, I worship on two planes, and one of those planes is the practical–which hymnal do I need to have open and ready, following the cantor during the Psalm, waiting for Father to finish the Consecration, etc.

I understand how captainbernie feels because I felt the same way during this thread. I just decided that the best thing to do was follow the written teachings of the Catholic Church and obey the bishop and priest whom I know and love, rather than cave in to people on a computer forum who I don’t know from Adam, and who might not even be who or what they say they are.

Again, with all due respect, you seem to play the obedience card a bit in these threads. After awhile, the argument becomes old. The bishops are also bound to obey the same documents that I cite, which are the authoritative ones from the Holy See. While they are granted limited authority within their diocese regarding the Liturgy, bishops need to use these documents as a guide when making their decisions and determinations.

The organ has had pride of place for several centuries. In this article, which appeared in Musicam Sacram, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger outlines the importance of the organ and the overall character of what constitutes genuine Sacred Music:

musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/liturgy&music.pdf

Here is one snippet of the article, which is a reprint of the lecture he presented on Sacred Music and the Liturgy:

And so, conventional (indeed, even conciliar!) terms like the
“treasury of sacred music,” the “organ as queen of instruments” or the “universality of Gregorian chant” now appear as “mystifications” whose purpose is “to preserve a particular form of power.” A certain administration of power (so we are told) feels threatened by the processes of cultural change. It (allegedly) reacts by masking its effort at self-preservation in the guise of love for tradition. Gregorian chant and Palestrina are said to be the tutelary deities of a mythicized ancient repertory, ingredients of a Catholic counter-culture supported by re-mythicized and super-sacralized archetypes. In fact, the entire historical liturgy of the Church is claimed to be more concerned with the representation of a cultic bureaucracy than with the singing activity of the congregation. And finally, the content of Pope St. Pius X’s motu proprio on church music is called a “culturally shortsighted and theologically worthless ideology of sacred music.”

The statements that he presents here are echoed throughout this thread by folks, well-meaning as they are, who mischaracterize the organ as sounding spooky, without even taking the time to understand why the Church makes the statements that she does.

 

[Stephen3970]

I am a big fan of the organ. I feel this is a very good way to celebrate the mass. I wish the organist at my Church would play it more instead of the piano.

What do you think about pianos, guitars, and etc. in place of the organ?

Could anyone see these instruments as dangerous?

Some opinions that I have heard is that the guitar symbolizes a sinful musical genre (rock-and-roll) and the instrument is simply not reverent enough. I personally cannot see any problem with using these for worship as long as the tabernacle is not in the same room!!!

God Bless

As a musician and a guitarist, I would disagree with labeling any musical genre as inherently sinful, it is simply a communication medium - the real question is what is being communicated? Pornography appears in magazine format but that does not make magazines themselves sinful.

Saying that you do not have a problem with guitars as long as the tabernacle is not in the room is also inconsistant - if they are being used in the palce of an organ then one has to assume that this is at mass where the elements are being consecrated and the faithful recive the body and blood of Christ. Either guitars and pianos are acceptable or they are not.

I will say this, I do no thtink that guitar and piano should be replacing the organ. other instruments can certainly be used but if there is an organ and organist available then it would be silly to not make use of it. However, in cases where a competent organist is not available, I see no problem with a piano or guitar providing musical accompaniment.

However, it is unfortunate that when a guitar IS brought in, it is usually with the intent of also bringing in the substandard, “kumbaya”, camp fire sing-alongs that are pawned off as “praise and worship”. I believe Guitar can be tastefully used in worship but the problem is that many guitarists lack the skill to do so.

my $.02

 

[benedictgal]

Something else to be noted are remarks that Pope Benedict once made about the state of music today (which, sadly, some on this thread will easily discount as mere personal opinion):

“A church which only makes use of utility music has fallen for what is, in fact, useless. She too becomes ineffectual. For her mission is a far higher one. The church must not settle down with what is merely comfortable and serviceable at the parish level; she must arouse the voice of the cosmos and, by glorifying the creator, elicit the glory of the cosmos itself, making it also glorious, beautiful, habitable and beloved. Next to the saints, the art which the church has produced is the only real apologia for her history. The church is to transform, improve, humanise the world, but how can she do that if at the same time she turns her back on beauty, which is so closely allied to love? For together beauty and love form the true consolation in this world, bringing it as near as possible to the world of the resurrection.”

He gives us a clear blueprint for what we need in music today. Unfortunately, there are some who perhaps need to buy batteries or get a better charger for their liturgical GPS.

 

[Indyann]

Again, with all due respect, you seem to play the obedience card a bit in these threads. After awhile, the argument becomes old. The bishops are also bound to obey the same documents that I cite, which are the authoritative ones from the Holy See. While they are granted limited authority within their diocese regarding the Liturgy, bishops need to use these documents as a guide when making their decisions and determinations.

The organ has had pride of place for several centuries. In this article, which appeared in Musicam Sacram, the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger outlines the importance of the organ and the overall character of what constitutes genuine Sacred Music:

musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/liturgy&music.pdf

Here is one snippet of the article, which is a reprint of the lecture he presented on Sacred Music and the Liturgy:

The statements that he presents here are echoed throughout this thread by folks, well-meaning as they are, who mischaracterize the organ as sounding spooky, without even taking the time to understand why the Church makes the statements that she does.

You still didn’t answer the question as to WHY the Church would choose an instrument that was used to rally the crowd at Christian martyrdom to hold Pride of Place.

I read the link, and I didn’t see any answer to my question.

If you don’t know, just say “I don’t know.”

Other than the fact that it is loud, I can’t think of any other reason.

I would think the Church would choose the lute, tambourine or another instrument mentioned in the Old Testament.

 

[Stephen3970]

What’s wrong with drums?

Too ethnic maybe?

“Pride of place”? Did they have organs in Hawaii or the Philipines when those islands were evangelized? Mmmmmmmm. Is the Church strictly classical? I don’t think so.

It had better be Christ centered.

“Too ethnic” is nothing but a strawman. Nothing wrong with drums in and of themsleves but I personally find them distracting. This is because 9 times out of 10 the drummer is heavy handed and actually detracts from worship.

 

[ibkc]

You still didn’t answer the question as to WHY the Church would choose an instrument that was used to rally the crowd at Christian martyrdom to hold Pride of Place.

Why do guitarists play an instrument in mass that is associated with anti-Christian rock music? That question has just as much relevance as the one you ask, perhaps even more so, because pipe organs as we know it are a different instrument entirely from the hydraulus used in ancient times.

 

[Indyann]

Why do guitarists play an instrument in mass that is associated with anti-Christian rock music? That question has just as much relevance as the one you ask, perhaps even more so, because pipe organs as we know it are a different instrument entirely from the hydraulus used in ancient times.

And from which instrument did the modern guitar evolve?

guyguitars.com/eng/handbook/BriefHistory.html

 

[ibkc]

And from which instrument did the modern guitar evolve?

I would say that doesn’t matter; the guitar in its modern form is the form where the negative association lies.

My intention in bringing this up is simply to illustrate how utterly ridiculous your argument is. The Church has given special status to the organ and has not given special status to the guitar. Those who have a problem with this need to take it to the Holy See rather than demanding explanations from those who are simply pointing out the fact.

 

[benedictgal]

You still didn’t answer the question as to WHY the Church would choose an instrument that was used to rally the crowd at Christian martyrdom to hold Pride of Place.

I read the link, and I didn’t see any answer to my question.

If you don’t know, just say “I don’t know.”

Other than the fact that it is loud, I can’t think of any other reason.

I would think the Church would choose the lute, tambourine or another instrument mentioned in the Old Testament.

The instruments mentioned in the psalms were not a part of the cultic, sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. In fact, the human voice was the preeminent instrument, as the psalms were chanted.

Of all of the instruments, the organ, believe it or not, is a better fit for guiding the voice through sacred music. You cited the secular use of the organ in ancient Rome; however, it was fitting enough for the early Church to deem as sacred. Why not take the Church at her word about that?

Here is what the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy says about the organ:

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

Musicam Sacram repeats this:

"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lift up men’s minds to God and higher things.

In addition, Pope Pius XII also made reference to the organ in his Instruction on Sacred Music:

B. The classic organ and similar instruments.

1. The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ.

1. An organ destined for liturgical use, even if small, should be designed according to the norms of organ building, and be equipped with the type of pipes suitable for sacred use. Before it is to be used it should be properly blessed, and as a sacred object, receive proper care.

1. Besides the classic organ, the harmonium or reed organ may also be used provided that its tonal quality, and volume are suitable for sacred use.

1. As a substitute, the electronic organ may be tolerated temporarily for liturgical functions, if the means for obtaining even a small pipe organ are not available. In each case, however, the explicit permission of the local Ordinary is required. He, on his part, should consult the diocesan commission on sacred music, and others trained in this field, who can make suggestions for rendering such an instrument more suitable for sacred use.

Neither document says that about any other instrument. While it makes allowances for them, MS carries a rather interesting stipulation:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

Interestingly enough, this same statement is echoed in the document issued by Pope Pius XII:

1. Musical instruments which by common acception, and use are suitable only for secular music must be entirely excluded from all liturgical functions, and private devotions.

The guitar’s main connotation and association has always been secular. Les Paul didn’t exactly invent the electric guitar for use in the Mass.

 

[captainbernie]

Look at it this way, maybe now you can spend more time focusing on Christ’s sacrifice instead of which folk song to strum next.

Thank you for that.

 

[Indyann]

I would say that doesn’t matter; the guitar in its modern form is the form where the negative association lies.

My intention in bringing this up is simply to illustrate how utterly ridiculous your argument is. The Church has given special status to the organ and has not given special status to the guitar. Those who have a problem with this need to take it to the Holy See rather than demanding explanations from those who are simply pointing out the fact.

Mine is not an argument at all. It is merely curiosity.

I am a mom and am quite familiar with “Because I’m your Mother and I said so”.

Sorry you find my question “utterly ridiculous.”

And I didn’t demand anything. I merely asked a question.

I find your response “utterly ridiculous”, not to mention, not helpful at all.

 

[Indyann]

The instruments mentioned in the psalms were not a part of the cultic, sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. In fact, the human voice was the preeminent instrument, as the psalms were chanted.

Of all of the instruments, the organ, believe it or not, is a better fit for guiding the voice through sacred music. You cited the secular use of the organ in ancient Rome; however, it was fitting enough for the early Church to deem as sacred. Why not take the Church at her word about that?

Here is what the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy says about the organ:

Musicam Sacram repeats this:

In addition, Pope Pius XII also made reference to the organ in his Instruction on Sacred Music:

Neither document says that about any other instrument. While it makes allowances for them, MS carries a rather interesting stipulation:

Interestingly enough, this same statement is echoed in the document issued by Pope Pius XII:

The guitar’s main connotation and association has always been secular. Les Paul didn’t exactly invent the electric guitar for use in the Mass.

Thank you for trying to answer my question. Even though, it can be argued that there are ancient carvings and sculptures on European churches with angels with guitars. I doubt the angels were playing secular music.

I was just wondering why this instrument was chosen.

 

[sauce]

“Too ethnic” is nothing but a strawman. Nothing wrong with drums in and of themsleves but I personally find them distracting. This is because 9 times out of 10 the drummer is heavy handed and actually detracts from worship.

I was thinking more at “percussion” instruments or skins. As in Jesus’s day.

Not everyone is European. They come from other cultures and relate to music a little differently. What kind of music would be at a Chinese mass? Or African mass? Or Brazilian mass? We used to have a girl who played the accordian at mass growing up.
That’s what she played. Did anyone like it? Hard to say.

The important thing was the worship. That is the heart of the matter.

 

[ibkc]

Mine is not an argument at all. It is merely curiosity.

Voiced in a very belligerent way: but I’m sure you didn’t do that on purpose.

I am a mom and am quite familiar with “Because I’m your Mother and I said so”.

As a Catholic, you should be triply familiar with this, because it is the way the Church works. We are called to be obedient. If the Church gives the organ pride of place can we not assume that she does so for good reasons?

 

[Indyann]

Voiced in a very belligerent way: but I’m sure you didn’t do that on purpose.

As a Catholic, you should be triply familiar with this, because it is the way the Church works. We are called to be obedient. If the Church gives the organ pride of place can we not assume that she does so for good reasons?

Beligerent? To ask a question and give an example of why the thought of questioning even entered my mind?

Of course, the reason I stated “because I said so” hinges on obedience. That’s why I said it.

Of course the Church has good reasons for Her statements.

I just did not expect to be demeaned and ridiculed for asking if anyone knew the “good reason”.

“As a Cathoic, you should be triply familiar” with the concept that to demean someone for questioning is not what the Church teaches.

 

[sauce]

The only thing worth being triply familiar with is the Ten Commandments.

The other “reasons” I generally see being changed down through the years.
Sometimes it takes the Church years to commit things to oblivion.

Poor Galileo.

 

[pnewton]

Why do guitarists play an instrument in mass that is associated with anti-Christian rock music?

Why was the Vatican situated in a place of pagan Roman games? Why did Jesus let someone who denied Him lead the Church and one who persecuted the Church to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles? It is what we do. Polyphonic chant in the proper time can be taken from the realm of the forbidden secular and allowed in the liturgy. Cathedrals can be built on pagan sites and Holy Days placed on pagan holidays.

 

[Gertabelle]

It’s not the music or appointments that give the mass it’s beauty and magesty, it is the presence of our savior, the participation in the sacrifice and being part of the body of Christ.

Something else to be noted are remarks that Pope Benedict once made about the state of music today (which, sadly, some on this thread will easily discount as mere personal opinion):

“A church which only makes use of utility music has fallen for what is, in fact, useless. She too becomes ineffectual. For her mission is a far higher one. The church must not settle down with what is merely comfortable and serviceable at the parish level; she must arouse the voice of the cosmos and, by glorifying the creator, elicit the glory of the cosmos itself, making it also glorious, beautiful, habitable and beloved. Next to the saints, the art which the church has produced is the only real apologia for her history. The church is to transform, improve, humanise the world, but how can she do that if at the same time she turns her back on beauty, which is so closely allied to love? For together beauty and love form the true consolation in this world, bringing it as near as possible to the world of the resurrection.”

He gives us a clear blueprint for what we need in music today. Unfortunately, there are some who perhaps need to buy batteries or get a better charger for their liturgical GPS.

My parish has a decent organ, electric, which of course should be temporary, according to PPXII. However, the two times I’ve heard it played have been absolutely dreadful. The organist sounded more like he/she was “hunting and pecking” for the melody of the songs (it was the Christmas season), and it was all I could do not to go over and offer my assistance during mass. I mean, I’m a piano player, not an organist, but even I could have at least played the basic songs without the pedals. Even my mother commented to me afterwards, “I wondered if that was hard for you to sit through that.” Incidentally, that is the only time I’ve ever heard the organ played.

Yes, I think we need to be obedient to Mother Church, and if our Pope and our Bishops are calling for the organ to take its rightful spot in liturgy, then we need to obey. But do we have to sacrifice reverence and beauty and contemplation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass just so we can use the correct instruments?! That seems to me to be totally contrary to the intentions of the documents you quoted.

In an ideal world, all children would receive private music lessons, and at least ten percent of them would learn to read music and play piano, and at least ten percent of them would learn to play the organ on at least a basic level. But let’s face it, this society is not the same one as when PPXII was alive. I don’t even know where to find an organ teacher these days! Many colleges and universities don’t have organ professors because they no longer have majoring in organ performance.

Just my two cents.

Gertie

 

[sauce]

Why was the Vatican situated in a place of pagan Roman games? Why did Jesus let someone who denied Him lead the Church and one who persecuted the Church to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles? It is what we do. Polyphonic chant in the proper time can be taken from the realm of the forbidden secular and allowed in the liturgy. Cathedrals can be built on pagan sites and Holy Days placed on pagan holidays.

We’ve made a habit of baptism. And that’s a good thing. That’s the freedom of the Holy Spirit.

 

[benedictgal]

My parish has a decent organ, electric, which of course should be temporary, according to PPXII. However, the two times I’ve heard it played have been absolutely dreadful. The organist sounded more like he/she was “hunting and pecking” for the melody of the songs (it was the Christmas season), and it was all I could do not to go over and offer my assistance during mass. I mean, I’m a piano player, not an organist, but even I could have at least played the basic songs without the pedals. Even my mother commented to me afterwards, “I wondered if that was hard for you to sit through that.” Incidentally, that is the only time I’ve ever heard the organ played.

Yes, I think we need to be obedient to Mother Church, and if our Pope and our Bishops are calling for the organ to take its rightful spot in liturgy, then we need to obey. But do we have to sacrifice reverence and beauty and contemplation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass just so we can use the correct instruments?! That seems to me to be totally contrary to the intentions of the documents you quoted.

In an ideal world, all children would receive private music lessons, and at least ten percent of them would learn to read music and play piano, and at least ten percent of them would learn to play the organ on at least a basic level. But let’s face it, this society is not the same one as when PPXII was alive. I don’t even know where to find an organ teacher these days! Many colleges and universities don’t have organ professors because they no longer have majoring in organ performance.

Just my two cents.

Gertie

Then, we go to the original instrument, the human voice. After all, that is how Ancient Israel prayed in song. They chanted the psalms.