What do you think about guitars during mass?

[eucharisteo]

Just be thankful the mass isn’t like this.

4praise.com/

We used to attend a church that was just like this. It is okay for a non-mass. But it is deeply misguided for used in a Mass. What drives me crazy is singing songs written by a known dissenter even with that person’s title removed.

 

[Bluegoat]

Just be thankful the mass isn’t like this.

4praise.com/

We used to attend a church that was just like this. It is okay for a non-mass. But it is deeply misguided for used in a Mass. What drives me crazy is singing songs written by a known dissenter even with that person’s title removed.

Does that just apply to things like “A Mighty Fortress is our God” or would you like to get rid of Bach too?

 

[Bluegoat]

LOL I hope this isn’t disrespectful…but I always thought that the Holy Father JPII was such a cute old man.

I thought he was a cute young man too.

 

[graciesuico]

Oh Mass is the highest form of prayer. The grace is always there no matter what instrument is there either guitar or organ. Jesus is always there it did not depend on what kind of instrument we are using. The power and grace does’nt change with what kind of instrument . In my parish we have organ but the player is too loud and I could see the reaction of the people infront of me.

Another thing, it is better to be in a small chapel rather than in a huge church with organ but the organist doesnt know what she is doing. Her tempo is so terrible…I couldnt agree enough that using organ is more peaceful and solemn.

 

[ac_claire]

Eternity encompasses* all* time as in “all time belongs to Him.” Even Gregorian chant has a date that it started. Next time you have a hymnal, look at the composition date of your favorite hymn. You will not find any that have none and are timeless, much less that date back to the first century AD. The First Century, the Fifth Century, the Twentieth Century and the Twenty-first Century are all part of, and only a part of, eternity.

Of course, but it’s not so much about the actual date the song was written that makes it classic or sacred or not. LIke the song “Holy God we Praise Thy Name” that keeps getting brought up in these threads. It’s a classic song, but if I’m not mistaken it was written in the 1800s or 1900s. There’s a feel and a mood about it, about chant, etc., that is missing from a LOT of the more modern songs we sing at Mass today.

The problem I guess is that the criteria are somewhat subjective. You’ll have someone like Cat who insists that some of the modern, up-tempo songs are sacred and reverent to her…and how can you disagree with someone’s sincere perspective? But there are songs today that are purposefully written in a “pop” or “folk” or “rock” style, and since these are styles of popular, contemporary music, those songs are gonna sound dated to any unbiased ear.

 

[ac_claire]

I thought he was a cute young man too.

Agree lol. I think the same thing about Pope B16 too. Maybe it’s just the natural affection we have for them, like with your grandma or grandpa or something.

 

[Layman]

Does that just apply to things like “A Mighty Fortress is our God” or would you like to get rid of Bach too?

Give a hymn 200 years to mature, I say. If it’s still popular after that, it’s probably OK.

I don’t like being a guinea pig for liturgical experimentalists. The more ‘hip’ you try to be, the more you try to ‘reach the people’ and bring the Mass to their level, the more mundane and dated you will make it, I think.

Add in an off-key, solo female singer and the effect can be very bad; comical, even.

Now, if a Missa Cantata was available in every parish in Catholic Christendom on a Sunday morning you could let the more adventurous liturgists and choir masters experiment with like-minded congregations. But it ain’t. Experimentation and populism are the norm, now.

 

[Bluegoat]

Give a hymn 200 years to mature, I say. If it’s still popular after that, it’s probably OK.

I don’t like being a guinea pig for liturgical experimentalists. The more ‘hip’ you try to be, the more you try to ‘reach the people’ and bring the Mass to their level, the more mundane and dated you will make it, I think.

Now, if a Missa Cantata was available in every parish in Catholic Christendom on a Sunday morning you could let the more adventurous liturgists and choir masters experiment with like-minded congregations. But it ain’t.

When I was younger and attended a university chapel, the choir was very good and sung mostly polyphony and a bit of Gregorian chant in Lent. They also had two orginal mass setting they would sing - one by a member of the choir and one by the choirmaster. The one by a member was very beautiful and simple, and they sang it regularly. The one by the choirmaster was very modern, and awful, although I think quite intellectual and musically complex. The choir members found it very challenging as singers (though most didn’t like it either.) We sang that once a year, and smiled because we knew how hard the choirmaster worked, and that he donated his entire salary back for bursaries for music students.

I think it can be ok to try new things and give a venue for new compositions, but then see how they are working and leave them aside if they aren’t. And mix them in with what is known to work well.

 

[EvelynEVF]

At Benediction a couple weeks ago, we sang O Salutaris Hostia to a tune that wasn’t the one on a CD I have. So I asked the deacon about it, and he introduced me to the Adoremus hymnal (which has both tunes for that hymn and Tantum Ergo, too). Oh, my. I don’t want to be a musical snob, but what an incredible collection of hymns! The are sight-readable, with good harmonies, normal rhythms, and strong theological content. This makes them much more relevant than a lot of the more modern stuff that congregations struggle to sing.

I’m going to have to start saving up

 

[pnewton]

The problem I guess is that the criteria are somewhat subjective. You’ll have someone like Cat who insists that some of the modern, up-tempo songs are sacred and reverent to her…and how can you disagree with someone’s sincere perspective?..those songs are gonna sound dated to any unbiased ear.

I think the danger is that one will focus so much on modern music that one one takes the good and the bad. All generations produce true art that will stand the test of time. When one insists on a narrow idea of what music is to be used (folk music, e.g.) then one has to drag the bottom of the barrel to fill up the slots throughout the year.

I have the objection to staff musicians for OCP and GIA. As much as Hagen and Haas or slammed on, I think they have produced a few wonderful hymns that may stand the test of time. However, the majority of their stuff is more mundane and lacks that sense of inspiration we find in the best of the best. Yet it is published for financial expediency by those paying their salary.

Some of the stuff we find today sooooo over-used may one day still fill the ranks of classic Catholic hymns.

 

[Bluegoat]

I think the danger is that one will focus so much on modern music that one one takes the good and the bad. All generations produce true art that will stand the test of time. When one insists on a narrow idea of what music is to be used (folk music, e.g.) then one has to drag the bottom of the barrel to fill up the slots throughout the year.

I have the objection to staff musicians for OCP and GIA. As much as Hagen and Haas or slammed on, I think they have produced a few wonderful hymns that may stand the test of time. However, the majority of their stuff is more mundane and lacks that sense of inspiration we find in the best of the best. Yet it is published for financial expediency by those paying their salary.

Some of the stuff we find today sooooo over-used may one day still fill the ranks of classic Catholic hymns.

This makes me think of Lent last year, when I was attending a different church. They have two music directors, one in charge of “traditional” music, and one in charge of “contemporary” music. ( I think the contemporary director must be a better scrapper because that is what they use the most.)

In any case, they announced in the bulletin that they were having a hard time finding contemporary Lenten pieces (which is interesting in itself). So they were on a mission to find more. They were surely scraping the bottom of the barrel that Lent, and with so much good Lenten stuff available. The choir, which is decent, didn’t even make an attempt at a bit of plainchant, which I had been really hoping for.

 

[benedictgal]

I think the danger is that one will focus so much on modern music that one one takes the good and the bad. All generations produce true art that will stand the test of time. When one insists on a narrow idea of what music is to be used (folk music, e.g.) then one has to drag the bottom of the barrel to fill up the slots throughout the year.

I have the objection to staff musicians for OCP and GIA. As much as Hagen and Haas or slammed on, I think they have produced a few wonderful hymns that may stand the test of time. However, the majority of their stuff is more mundane and lacks that sense of inspiration we find in the best of the best. Yet it is published for financial expediency by those paying their salary.

Some of the stuff we find today sooooo over-used may one day still fill the ranks of classic Catholic hymns.

Of course, these same songs may wind up in some liturgical music textbook as examples of the worst of the worst. They may also wind up as teaching tools for how not to write music for the Mass.

As far as those paying their salary are concerned, they need to ensure that whatever their stable of writers composes is up to snuff. So, they, too, bear some of the responsibility for perpetuating bad liturgical music. They need to say something along the lines of no quality music, no check.

 

[pnewton]

As far as those paying their salary are concerned, they need to ensure that whatever their stable of writers composes is up to snuff.

I like the term"stable." It cuts to the heart of the problem. Even if writers compose according to every standard set before them, I do not like staff writers. Music may be manufactured, but not great music. The greatest music is inspired and few people can produce more than a handful of inspired songs destined to stand the test of time. I am reminded of the great protestant writer, Fanny Crosby, who I always admired as a Baptist, and still do. She wrote thousands of hymns and was one of the most prolific composers ever, especially considering she was blind. Yet a few a stand out as truly great music in a field of lesser works. It is like looking across a field of wheat. Most of the heads of wheat are of uniform height. Yet one will notice sticking up above the field those plants which stretch higher and stand out above the rest of the field.

OCP wants to farm and harvest all the music, bind it in a bale and call it a hymnal. It is far better to pick the best from all fields and be able to present on the best that we have to the Lord.

 

[Sarabande]

I think the danger is that one will focus so much on modern music that one one takes the good and the bad. All generations produce true art that will stand the test of time. When one insists on a narrow idea of what music is to be used (folk music, e.g.) then one has to drag the bottom of the barrel to fill up the slots throughout the year.

I have the objection to staff musicians for OCP and GIA. As much as Hagen and Haas or slammed on, I think they have produced a few wonderful hymns that may stand the test of time. However, the majority of their stuff is more mundane and lacks that sense of inspiration we find in the best of the best. Yet it is published for financial expediency by those paying their salary.

Some of the stuff we find today sooooo over-used may one day still fill the ranks of classic Catholic hymns.

I think you hit the nail right on the head, especially in regards to newer music being written/composed today. There is beautiful music composed today which is embued with inspiration. But many times, we do not get to hear any of it because of this idea of staff writers/composers, that “stable” which Benedictgal mentioned. It was experienced in the past as well. You can sometimes tell when a great classical composer from the Classical period was just pumping out a piece of music because of his “contract” with the noble lord, king, aristocrat or even the bishop/archbishop paying the composer’s salary. The music was beautiful, but in many ways, not inspired. Then you hear the works in which you can tell came from the deepest parts of their hearts and souls.

We also have to remember that there was a lot of saccharine, mediocre and downright bad music composed for the liturgy in the past, too. Time pushed it out of people’s memories. Look, for example, at the saccharine “Mother at Your Feet is Kneeling”. When it’s played on the organ, exactly as written, it sounds more like something you’d hear in an old-fashioned ice cream parlor than for mass. From what I’ve been told, in the 1980s and 1990s, it was still pretty popular, especially with the older crowds. I still get it requested once in a while for funerals, but usually they are for the funeral mass of someone over 85, and then once in a while by a bride who wants to keep the tradition of using it as a Presentation to the Blessed Mother because their great-grandmother, grandmother and mother used it. But even that has become a rarity.

My belief is that manufactured art of any kind is some of the worst, which is unfortunately what you see in some of these hymnals. It’s a shame that a real national hymnal can’t be created in which the best sacred works, hymns, propers, etc. could be compiled by a mix of actual experts in music and liturgy and sanctioned by the Vatican. That way we wouldn’t have to be dealing with this plethora of hymnals in which the quality range from horrible to beautiful.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Sarabande, have you seen the Adoremus hymnal? What do you think of it? Personally, I would be very happy to see it used in my parish. The music is so good that even a mediocre guitar couldn’t ruin it.

 

[janessa1850]

I am partial to the organ- a quality authentic pipe organ, not an electronic thing. I feel the pipe organ is beautiful and reverent and appropriate for Mass. I’ve heard some electronic organs used- they are totally awful and remind me of old roller rink music.

Guitars can be ok if at a contemporary low mass service and the majority want them and like them and they are played well to uplifting songs written for the guitar. I avoid guitar masses myself.

Not all churches can afford a nice pipe organ, so in lieu of a good organ, a good piano is acceptable but the music played on it must be reverent and reverently played.

Where I live there are now Latino masses and the styles of music are totally different from the European. The Latino music is very festive and fine for people who like it but I do not like it for Mass. It sounds like circus, or festival music to me.

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande, have you seen the Adoremus hymnal? What do you think of it? Personally, I would be very happy to see it used in my parish. The music is so good that even a mediocre guitar couldn’t ruin it.

Yes, I have, but have only seen it actually used in one little rural, mountain farming parish. I also found it to be a very good hymnal. And I would agree in regards to the use of the guitar. A couple of times, when the organist was out, a guitar player would step in and the person wasn’t great, but he/she really couldn’t do much to “ruin” the hymn as you say.

With a few of the Protestant congregations I’ve worked in as a musician, they have had an official standard hymnal. I don’t think the Catholic Church has an official standard hymnal, although having worked or visited many various Catholic churches throughout the country, it seems that the standard hymnal is an OCP one. Although, I have seen other places use the Worship hymnal by GIA and I think that is better than any of the OCP ones. And that’s the problem I’ve seen. Because there is not official standard hymnal, you will get this mix of hymnals compiled with everything under the sun to excellent ones. But for some reason, the mediocre/bad hymnals tend to be the ones bought and used by most of the parishes.

It just would be better, at least in my opinion, if an official standard one compiled by experts appointed by the Vatican could be created. It would “separate the chaff from the grain” much easier.

 

[cosfini05]

I think that pnewton has it right too. I myself, am a guitarist, pianist, organist. And as the Church looks for ways to create more reverence for the mass, I’ve found myself having to approach music a bit differently for mass, but I do it happily, in a spirit of obedience to the Church Magisterium.

Benedictgal, I think your views are very elitist when it comes to music, and you have an interpretation of Church documents that favors your opinion and not necessarily the vision for music in the Church. I’ve read them myself, but have also talked to priests, bishops, and music directors. Most of them all agree that there is great flexibility when it comes to music for worship in the Church, even with instrumentation (i.e. guitars, piano) but they also agree that there are also many music directors who lack good, Roman Catholic formation. And what may work at St. Peter’s Basilica, may not work for Our Lady of Fatima in a poor, Spanish-speaking barrio. Should we strive for that ideal? Yes. Will it work, only God knows.

Tell me Benedictgal, would you ever go to a Roman Catholic Church in Nairobi, Kenya, and tell them that the way they worship is apalling (may be for us Westerners), or to Latin America and explain to the people in some small village in Michoacán that they should not use guitars for worship?

And where exactly did you get your quote about chant in Ancient Israel. Chant was definitely a part of their worship, but not exclusive. Please let me know so I can be better informed. From what I understand from Chronicles 13, "They transported the ark of God on a new cart from the house of Abinadab; Uzzah and Ahio were guiding the cart, while David and all Israel danced before God with great enthusiasm, amid songs and music on lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals, and trumpets.”

I do believe that Gregorian chant and the organ are “accorded the right of place” in worship, but what about when one cannot afford it. Not all parishes may be as wealthy as yours. Does that make our worship second-hand?

I’ve been to masses where the organist was putting on more of a concert than leading the people in prayer. I’ve been to masses where it was more of a rock concert. I’ve been to masses where the music was exclusively chant with no one in attendance (on a Sunday) or little participation from the few in the pews. Something is terribly wrong with each of these situations.

I believe the music director needs good, solid formation to lead the people in prayer and song at mass, so that whether one uses chant, sacred choral music, or contemporary, the music will serve a specific purpose in enhancing the mass and steering away from a performance setting. When music directors are aware of the readings of the day, the prayers, themes, or the tone of the mass, the music they would pick will better serve the people and their needs. I also believe a good music director will have knowledge in chant, sacred, and contemporary music, to help create a better-rounded repertoire for the parish; one that honors the ancient and traditional while embracing the new. Thus, the spirit of the music, whether it’s at Saint Peter’s Basilica or St. Mary’s in the US, and not the repertoire, will allow the people to worship God with a sincere heart.

I believe the mass, even without music, is the most awesome experience. The right music, whether contemporary or sacred, will enhance the mass greatly. I love chant. I also love sacred repertoire from Palestrina to DeVictoria, but I also believe there is newer material that is also excellent. Our goal is to levitate the minds and hearts of the people of God, and to help others to love Jesus more deeply in the Eucharist.

May God be merciful to all of us musicians, and to His Church.

 

[benedictgal]

I think that pnewton has it right too. I myself, am a guitarist, pianist, organist. And as the Church looks for ways to create more reverence for the mass, I’ve found myself having to approach music a bit differently for mass, but I do it happily, in a spirit of obedience to the Church Magisterium.

Benedictgal, I think your views are very elitist when it comes to music, and you have an interpretation of Church documents that favors your opinion and not necessarily the vision for music in the Church. I’ve read them myself, but have also talked to priests, bishops, and music directors. Most of them all agree that there is great flexibility when it comes to music for worship in the Church, even with instrumentation (i.e. guitars, piano) but they also agree that there are also many music directors who lack good, Roman Catholic formation. And what may work at St. Peter’s Basilica, may not work for Our Lady of Fatima in a poor, Spanish-speaking barrio. Should we strive for that ideal? Yes. Will it work, only God knows.

Tell me Benedictgal, would you ever go to a Roman Catholic Church in Nairobi, Kenya, and tell them that the way they worship is apalling (may be for us Westerners), or to Latin America and explain to the people in some small village in Michoacán that they should not use guitars for worship?

And where exactly did you get your quote about chant in Ancient Israel. Chant was definitely a part of their worship, but not exclusive. Please let me know so I can be better informed. From what I understand from Chronicles 13, "They transported the ark of God on a new cart from the house of Abinadab; Uzzah and Ahio were guiding the cart, while David and all Israel danced before God with great enthusiasm, amid songs and music on lyres, harps, tambourines, cymbals, and trumpets.”

I do believe that Gregorian chant and the organ are “accorded the right of place” in worship, but what about when one cannot afford it. Not all parishes may be as wealthy as yours. Does that make our worship second-hand?

I’ve been to masses where the organist was putting on more of a concert than leading the people in prayer. I’ve been to masses where it was more of a rock concert. I’ve been to masses where the music was exclusively chant with no one in attendance (on a Sunday) or little participation from the few in the pews. Something is terribly wrong with each of these situations.

I believe the music director needs good, solid formation to lead the people in prayer and song at mass, so that whether one uses chant, sacred choral music, or contemporary, the music will serve a specific purpose in enhancing the mass and steering away from a performance setting. When music directors are aware of the readings of the day, the prayers, themes, or the tone of the mass, the music they would pick will better serve the people and their needs. I also believe a good music director will have knowledge in chant, sacred, and contemporary music, to help create a better-rounded repertoire for the parish; one that honors the ancient and traditional while embracing the new. Thus, the spirit of the music, whether it’s at Saint Peter’s Basilica or St. Mary’s in the US, and not the repertoire, will allow the people to worship God with a sincere heart.

I believe the mass, even without music, is the most awesome experience. The right music, whether contemporary or sacred, will enhance the mass greatly. I love chant. I also love sacred repertoire from Palestrina to DeVictoria, but I also believe there is newer material that is also excellent. Our goal is to levitate the minds and hearts of the people of God, and to help others to love Jesus more deeply in the Eucharist.

May God be merciful to all of us musicians, and to His Church.

It is rather interesting that folks will use King David to justify many things. However, we need to make the distinction that what David did was not part of the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. The rubrics mandated by God, the Father, as dictated to Moses, were rather strict. Any deviation from them resulted in severe penalty. One only needs to look at the sons of Aaron and Dathan to know what happened.

Since when does asking for beauty, majesty and solemnity appear to be elitist? My friend, the documents speak for themselves. In no document is the word “guitar” mentioned. In fact, if you look at the documents, even Musicam Sacram, they do note something about secular use:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

Electric guitars, bongos, drum kits and the like are associated more along the lines with rock and pop music. In other words, inasmiuch as I love Duran Duran, I scarely think that Andy Taylor’s Fender guitar, John Taylor’s bass guitar and Roger Taylor’s Tama drum sit are not suitable at all for the Mass.

As for your assertions about Mass in Nairobi, might I remind you that a few posts ago, I noted that there is room for legitimate inculturation because the Church calls for it and makes allowances for it. Sorry, but, the straw man approach does not work here.

 

[GIR]

Vatican II specifically lauds the organ (and chant) as the most appropriate settings for the mass. I agree. I do not like guitars, secular music, or rock bands at mass. I don’t like how there’s ALWAYS someone strumming a guitar during every song, even on more traditional songs played on the organ and sung in Latin.

Sacred music isn’t supposed to ape secular music. It’s supposed to be a genre unto itself, dedicated to the worship of God. Mass is not supposed to be “entertaining”. Sacred music is far more then “entertaining”, it’s uplifting in a spiritual way.

Maybe, in order to get the point across, the Vatican should ban ALL instruments (perhaps including the organ at first) like the byzantines.