What do you think about parishes charging for faith formation?

[kaj3]

I’m not talking about charging for books or program materials – sure that’s fine. But should parishes charge parishoners for faith formation beyond books/materials? If so, how much? What is an acceptable amount? $100/student? $300? $500? Other?

What do you think?

 

[MaryAgnes]

Charging for books/materials is appropriate but anything beyond that seems wrong. It is one of the responsibilities of the pastor **to provide **the catechesis of his parishioners.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’m not talking about charging for books or program materials – sure that’s fine. But should parishes charge parishoners for faith formation beyond books/materials? If so, how much? What is an acceptable amount? $100/student? $300? $500? Other?

What do you think?

Parents are the primary teachers of the children in matters of Faith and Morals. The parish is there to assist them in this. IMO the cost for this catechetical assistance should be zero or minimum. A deposit for a book to be returned if the book is returned in good condition is one way.

 

[Teakafrog]

Children or adults? Schools cost a lot of money to run. They have to pay teachers and staff, cover utility costs and maintainence, etc, as well as books and materials. So I see some compensation for all that as fair.
Adult faith formation classes…I see that differently. Most RCIA classes have volunteer teachers, and use Church facilities. I’ve never heard of them being charged for.

 

[Lrning]

I’m not talking about charging for books or program materials – sure that’s fine. But should parishes charge parishoners for faith formation beyond books/materials? If so, how much? What is an acceptable amount? $100/student? $300? $500? Other?

What do you think?

I’m not opposed to paying a fee if I know that my parish has to pay out to offer the program and my fee is just reimbursing them. For instance, if the teacher/speaker is not a volunteer and is being paid. But I think this would be best for “above and beyond” kinds of formation… not basic faith formation like RCIA, bible study, sacrament preparation classes, etc.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Children or adults? Schools cost a lot of money to run. They have to pay teachers and staff, cover utility costs and maintainence, etc, as well as books and materials. So I see some compensation for all that as fair.
Adult faith formation classes…I see that differently. Most RCIA classes have volunteer teachers, and use Church facilities. I’ve never heard of them being charged for.

I have never run across a childrens Faithformation program that has paid Catechists. There are many paid DRE’s which I do not feel is right either. The ministries in a parish should come from the talents of the community. The Sunday collection must support the running of the parish. Special fees if you want lights in your CCD classroom does not float with me.

 

[mercygate]

If the level of giving in the parish is insufficient to support a free faith formation program, then THAT should be addressed.

• Faith formation SHOULD be free.
• Most Catholics give less than 2% of their income. In a middle class parish, there is no excuse for this level of irresponsibility.
• If the level of giving does not support the program, the parish should charge.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

In an ideal world, the parish has money coming through the door constantly, so no charges for anything are necessary.

In the real world, people drop $2, maybe $5 in the collection basket and think they are doing the parish some kind of favor. And don’t think Catholics don’t engage in going over to St. So-And-So instead of St. Watsits because Father Umteefratz is a lousy preacher of homilies, mean to kids, didn’t do what they wanted even though it’s against diocese policy, etc. Sometimes it’s warranted. Sometimes it’s petty. The money remains uncollected.

The DRE is a paid position. How is he or she supposed to pay his or her own gas bill, food bill, etc., if he or she is working full time? Do you even know the work that it takes to be DRE, to be responsible for not just the catechesis of the children, but the teenagers, the adults, the catechists? They are generall underpaid, IMO.

In the parishes in which I’ve participated, if a person can’t afford it, that person is given the instruction anyway, or there are ways to “help” to defray the cost. All they had to do was ask for the assistance. I’ve also seen anonymous “padrinos” and “madrinas” pay for it for those who cannot afford it.

 

[palmas85]

I’m torn on this one. Given the utterly abysmal level of catechisis that many Catholics have these days I want to say pay any price at all. Even for something as nebulous as Faith Formation, which depending where you are can be just about anything.

However, after thinking it over I have to say that it should be free.

I see no reason at all to have lay DREs. That should be the Pastors job. Instructors, yes, as long as they have had some religious training and certification from the Diocese.

Side note, a local Parish had two people sign up for its RCIA program. The DRE said it was impossible to have a RCIA program with only two people because they would not be able to share effectively, so he sent the two to other Parishes for instruction.

So I will pose the question. Prior to Vatican II a convert received instruction from a Priest, singly or in a group. Thousands if not millions converted under that system effectively. I know that the Church now uses the RCIA program and fostering a sense of community is important under that system.

But what type of community do you show when you farm your catechumans out to other parishes because you feel that sharing is the main goal of the program instead of religious instruction?

I know somewhat off topic and I apologize.

 

[jmcrae]

I see no reason at all to have lay DREs. That should be the Pastors job. Instructors, yes, as long as they have had some religious training and certification from the Diocese.

We went without a DRE for one year, in the program where I teach on Saturdays. The priest said that he could handle it by himself.

The doors were never unlocked on time; we were continually pounding on the Rectory door to get the keys from him, the classrooms were never set up - we had to do all that ourselves (and some of our catechists are elderly ladies, not exactly up to hauling furniture around), he was always running off to a wedding or a funeral so was never around for the kids to hear their problems or share their successes, there was absolutely no teacher training that year (meaning skyrocketing discipline issues), no preparation for the school Masses or the Service of Reconciliation that we do in Lent - like none, whatsoever - he had no idea what readings he wanted, or who he was going to assign as altar servers, or anything - it was like it was this big huge surprise to him that we have Mass and Reconciliation at CCD, and that yes, he is supposed to show up and preside over these events.

I said to him, “Every other year, you were there, and you were prepared - what happened this year?” He said, “Well, most years, the DRE sets it up and tells me what I’m doing.” I said, “Well, there’s your problem, then. You’re the DRE this year - you forgot to phone yourself and tell yourself what was going on.”

He hired a DRE the following year - can’t think why he would have gone to such wasteful expense, but hey, it’s his parish - he can do whatever he wants, right?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

If the level of giving in the parish is insufficient to support a free faith formation program, then THAT should be addressed.

• Faith formation SHOULD be free.
• Most Catholics give less than 2% of their income. In a middle class parish, there is no excuse for this level of irresponsibility.
• If the level of giving does not support the program, the parish should charge.

If the collection does not support a full blown Faith Formation Program then the parish should scale back and offer a minimal program. If the parish want something better it needs to increase the Sunday collection to support it. Maybe a special Sunday second collection specifically for the FF program? At least it is the WHOLE parish who gets to contribute.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’m torn on this one. Given the utterly abysmal level of catechisis that many Catholics have these days I want to say pay any price at all. Even for something as nebulous as Faith Formation, which depending where you are can be just about anything.

However, after thinking it over I have to say that it should be free.

I see no reason at all to have lay DREs. That should be the Pastors job. Instructors, yes, as long as they have had some religious training and certification from the Diocese.

Side note, a local Parish had two people sign up for its RCIA program. The DRE said it was impossible to have a RCIA program with only two people because they would not be able to share effectively, so he sent the two to other Parishes for instruction.

So I will pose the question. Prior to Vatican II a convert received instruction from a Priest, singly or in a group. Thousands if not millions converted under that system effectively. I know that the Church now uses the RCIA program and fostering a sense of community is important under that system.

But what type of community do you show when you farm your catechumans out to other parishes because you feel that sharing is the main goal of the program instead of religious instruction?

I know somewhat off topic and I apologize.

The way I would have handled this would be for a Sponsor from the parish to be assigned to each of the two people. Then as a group the two people their Sponsors and two RCIA team members would go and participate in the RCIA process at another parish. While still celebrating the Rites in their parish community.

 

[Chris-WA]

I have never run across a childrens Faithformation program that has paid Catechists. There are many paid DRE’s which I do not feel is right either. The ministries in a parish should come from the talents of the community. The Sunday collection must support the running of the parish.

AMEN! AMEN! And AMEN! All lay ministries should be UNPAID. If you are looking at this as a career, then you are in it for the wrong reason. It should not be a full-time job either. The problem is that in most parishes, 90% of the work is done by 5% of the parishoners, including the DRE. It should be up to the pastor to not only ask for volunteers, but to specificially seek out individuals and “call” them to a ministry. The load is being shed by too few in a parish, and far too many parishoners do absolutely nothing but stick a dollar in the basket every other Sunday. We require far too little from Catholics today. The bar is set way too low. Most Catholics contribute almost nothing to their local parish, while the few do it all.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

AMEN! AMEN! And AMEN! All lay ministries should be UNPAID. If you are looking at this as a career, then you are in it for the wrong reason. It should not be a full-time job either. The problem is that in most parishes, 90% of the work is done by 5% of the parishoners, including the DRE. It should be up to the pastor to not only ask for volunteers, but to specificially seek out individuals and “call” them to a ministry. The load is being shed by too few in a parish, and far too many parishoners do absolutely nothing but stick a dollar in the basket every other Sunday. We require far too little from Catholics today. The bar is set way too low. Most Catholics contribute almost nothing to their local parish, while the few do it all.

1.) With what do you propose that the DRE, the parish tech, the parish secretary, the maintenance man, the janitor, the parish school faculty, the principal, and the business manager pay their bills? We are already paid very little and consider it a ministry, but we have to eat, too, and so do our families.
2.) You belong to a parish where there is more than one priest? If so, you are in the minority.
3.) How do you expect to coodinate all these alleged volunteers?
4.) What do you plan on doing when you still have very few volunteers, or the parish size decreases because Father has frightened them away by “calling” them to ministry?

 

[Jennifer_J]

You know, books aren’t free. I’m on our Faith Formation Committe. We went to consumable workbooks this year so that the children had info/activities to take home with them to do with the family and that they can keep for themselves at the end of the year. Even if we made copies for everyone that still costs money. Classroom supplies cost money. I used to teach music in a Catholic school and earned very little–working for the church is a ministry, even if you are paid. When I taught at a public school the year after our Catholic school closed, I more than doubled my salary!!! Why is having a DRE an evil thing? The Pastor can’t be everywhere, esp since we will soon be sharing one between 2 parishes. We also expanded our FF from once a month to 4 times a week. If a family can’t afford the $ for FF, there are scholarships and sliding fees. If you are a catechist, you don’t pay anything. Those that can afford often pay more to help cover costs. The adults only pay for the books they use. I know the cost we are charging just covers the books and materials—nothing more and it’s a fair family pricing system at that. I don’t understand the controversy (nor can I spell it, I think! LOL)

Jennifer

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

1.) With what do you propose that the DRE, the parish tech, the parish secretary, the maintenance man, the janitor, the parish school faculty, the principal, and the business manager pay their bills? We are already paid very little and consider it a ministry, but we have to eat, too, and so do our families.
2.) You belong to a parish where there is more than one priest? If so, you are in the minority.
3.) How do you expect to coodinate all these alleged volunteers?
4.) What do you plan on doing when you still have very few volunteers, or the parish size decreases because Father has frightened them away by “calling” them to ministry?

The first thing that needs to be done is realize that the parish school is not what it used to be. A CATHOLIC school for the CATHOLIC children of the parish. Most Catholic schools are simply private schools today and should simply support themselves without help from the parish. Here Religion teachers are volunteers from the parish and are not paid school staff.

There are some positions that may need to be paid in a parish like secretary or maintance. However there should be retired or semi-retired people in the parish who can fill these positions. We volunteer our time for many things in the community, That time should be used in the parish community when necessary.

A parish should provide certain ministries to the parish community as resources allow, in a certain order of importance based on the mission of the Catholic Church. Liturgical and Sacramental, Evangelization next, Catechesis next, and so on.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

You know, books aren’t free. I’m on our Faith Formation Committe. We went to consumable workbooks this year so that the children had info/activities to take home with them to do with the family and that they can keep for themselves at the end of the year. Even if we made copies for everyone that still costs money. Classroom supplies cost money. I used to teach music in a Catholic school and earned very little–working for the church is a ministry, even if you are paid. When I taught at a public school the year after our Catholic school closed, I more than doubled my salary!!! Why is having a DRE an evil thing? The Pastor can’t be everywhere, esp since we will soon be sharing one between 2 parishes. We also expanded our FF from once a month to 4 times a week. If a family can’t afford the $ for FF, there are scholarships and sliding fees. If you are a catechist, you don’t pay anything. Those that can afford often pay more to help cover costs. The adults only pay for the books they use. I know the cost we are charging just covers the books and materials—nothing more and it’s a fair family pricing system at that. I don’t understand the controversy (nor can I spell it, I think! LOL)

Jennifer

You system sounds like a good compromise. I would have no issue if every registration for every child is processed and no one knows if there was or was not a check attached to the registration form.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Only our Director of Faith Formation handles the registrations, as far as I know–I mean people did hand in their forms, but I wasn’t there (I’m a catechist and was in my room meeting students) so I"m not sure how the money was handled but I assume it was placed in a pile and given to our director. We also have payment plans, I forgot to mention. People could pay a little every month if they are able. Our Director of Faith Formation is very sensitive to those who can’t pay. Our Parish subsidizes everything through Sunday collections (school–we have fair share tuition, parish renovations, salaries, children’s Sunday school, faith formation etc). Collections always seem short every week, though. As a family of 7 we skrimp to give as much as we can. We’re not quite to 10% yet, but I try to increase it every year.

Sorry to ramble,
Jennifer

 

[Chris-WA]

1.) With what do you propose that the DRE, the parish tech, the parish secretary, the maintenance man, the janitor, the parish school faculty, the principal, and the business manager pay their bills? We are already paid very little and consider it a ministry, but we have to eat, too, and so do our families.

I think you and I may be talking about two different things. If a parish has a full-fledged Catholic School with a campus, principal, teachers, DRE, and janitors, then of course those should be paid positions just like they would be in a public school. That is a full-time operation and parents pay a lot of tuition for that schooling. Obviously in that situation you would not be charged extra for faith formation because that would already be part of the curriculum.

But I think this thread is referring to RE programs in parishes without their own schools where the children typically have class once a week for about 90 minutes. I do not think a DRE or a catechists should be paid for these types of ministries. I think it’s fair to charge the students a nominal fee (maybe $30) to cover classroom materials, but that’s it.

2.) You belong to a parish where there is more than one priest? If so, you are in the minority.

No, my parish shares a priest with another parish.

3.) How do you expect to coodinate all these alleged volunteers?

Here is where I think we need a change in philosophy in how we approach ministry. Though I do not agree with their theology, my wife’s church (Mormon) has the model RE program that frankly puts our Catholic one to shame. It goes all year long, even through the summer, and there is not one paid person in the entire organization, including their “bishop” which is the equivalent of a small parish priest. Their kids know their faith far better than most Catholic kids. The reason they are able to do this is two-fold:

1. There is an understood expectation of each member that they will contribute their time and talent by filling a needed position without pay. They are given the jobs by their bishop, and most do not refuse. Could you imagine a parish priest “calling” people to various jobs? We could have a riot on our hands.
2. The members are expected to tithe. When a large portion of a congregation tithes, you don’t need endless silly fundraisers and fees for various programs. There is enough to keep the programs going, and you can count on it from year to year.

4.) What do you plan on doing when you still have very few volunteers, or the parish size decreases because Father has frightened them away by “calling” them to ministry?

We need to change our philosophy here and raise the bar of expectations from the average Catholic. We have way too many people contributing nothing. People have gotten very lazy over the years under our current system. When the load is shared among a large number of members, then you don’t need people working full time. If a parish congregation is unwilling to fill those jobs, then their RE program should reflect that lack of commitment from the members. This is doable, but many Catholics cannot fathom a church where the majority are active participants and do so without compensation.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

In an ideal world, the parish has money coming through the door constantly, so no charges for anything are necessary.

In the real world, people drop $2, maybe $5 in the collection basket and think they are doing the parish some kind of favor.

Maybe they ARE doing the best they can and you are WHO to judge? I know here in my community that the parish that is located in the well to do area has no more of a weekly tithe than the parish located in the meager end of town. How do you explain that?

:heart:Blyss