What do you think about parishes charging for faith formation?

[Chris-WA]

1.) What do you plan on doing when you still have very few volunteers, or the parish size decreases because Father has frightened them away by “calling” them to ministry?

I understand and agree that in most parishes there would initially be few volunteers. That’s the problem with the whole system–it’s all ‘volunteer.’ We’ve set the level of expectation so low that most people have no problem showing up at mass every now and then and maybe throw a dollar in the basket, and that’s the extent of their personal involvement in the parish. That has got to change, and it starts with the pastor. He needs to go out into the flock and recruit parishoners for these ministries, not put a sign-up sheet in the back of the church and just hope for the best. What if the priest called you in for a visit and said “I need you to do this?” I’m talking face to face here. How many would refuse then? Maybe a lot, but we’ll never know until somebody actually tries it, because right now everything is done on a “sign up at the back of the church” basis. And by the way, if the priest did it this way the people and the priest would actually get to know each other.

It has to start somewhere. For decades we’ve taken the easy way out by not requiring much from the parishoners and look where that has gotten us. To make up for the lack of parental involvement we hire full-time pastoral administrators and DRE’s, and it doesn’t work because it’s not enough. A parish RE program will only be as successful as the level of parental commitment. We lose many Catholics to other religions that expect a whole lot more involvement, and they actually like it! I’m of the personal belief that a parish gets exactly the number and quality of priests that it deserves. If the people are committed and faithful, they will produce seminarians. If they are not, they will go without. The same is true for all parish ministries. If the parents hand it completely over to the full-time paid DRE and volunteer catechists, the program will probably be less than stellar.

All I can say is that other churches have found a way to make it work much better than ours, even without paying anybody. Perhaps we should be humble enough to take a look at how they do it, and stop assuming that most Catholics are too lazy to help.

 

[puzzleannie]

If the collection does not support a full blown Faith Formation Program then the parish should scale back and offer a minimal program. If the parish want something better it needs to increase the Sunday collection to support it. Maybe a special Sunday second collection specifically for the FF program? At least it is the WHOLE parish who gets to contribute.

if the parish does not offer a full blown faith formation program it is reneging on its responsibility. The parish exists to evangelize, teach and hand on the faith, and sanctify through the sacraments. It is incomprehensible to me that the bishops do not convey the full message of stewardship and tithing to American Catholics. they did it 100 years ago regarding parochial schools and while they flourished the faith was taught in all parishes. These by the way were usually in working class immigrant large city parishes, and later suburban parishes, where the first priority was always to build the school, hold Mass in the gymnasium, and then build the Church.

there should be no CCD. All Catholic children should be in parochial schools as a matter of course. Parishes that do tithe are able to achieve this.

We had a long acrimonious debate on this topic less than 6 months ago and I for one have no desire for a reprise.

 

[Chris-WA]

there should be no CCD. All Catholic children should be in parochial schools as a matter of course…

That seems a bit extreme. The Church does not require this, although I think the schools are wonderful.

 

[Lrning]

I’m sensing a certain lack of charity in this thread. And a possibly harmful level of idealistic attitude. It’s fine to say that everything should be free and volunteers or the pastor should be responsible for running all formation programs, but we are a long way from this reality. Moving to this before a substantial number of parishioners have made a committment to Jesus that will manifest itself by their sharing their time, talent, and treasure has the potential to hurt many.

To me, one of the most beautiful things about the Catholic Church is that it accepts you where you are. I think the Church could do a better job helping Catholics hear the call to continue their faith formation into adulthood, but maybe that’s just because I had blinders on when it came to my faith for sooooo many years. I’m grateful the Lord and His Church were patient with me. It has helped me, in turn, be patient with others regardless of where they are in their faith journey.

One program that has the potential to bring about the changes everyone is talking about is Christ Renews His Parish. It is a wonderful way to reach out to more and more parishioners over time, to encourage them to experience a renewal in their relationship with Jesus, and to take part in the ministries of the parish.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

The first thing that needs to be done is realize that the parish school is not what it used to be. A CATHOLIC school for the CATHOLIC children of the parish. Most Catholic schools are simply private schools today and should simply support themselves without help from the parish. Here Religion teachers are volunteers from the parish and are not paid school staff…

That has to be be such a long time ago, as I have never seen one, and I am over 50. The Catholic elementary school I attended was at a parish, but people of all faiths were welcomed, as they were at the parish high school.

I know our Catholic school takes on all comers. This is in part because the local school district is less than stellar.

There are some positions that may need to be paid in a parish like secretary or maintance. However there should be retired or semi-retired people in the parish who can fill these positions. We volunteer our time for many things in the community, That time should be used in the parish community when necessary.

So, you think people should give up their retirement to perform parish functions, or worse, any old senior citizen can fill the bill, simply because you volunteer? I don’t understand.

We had a six month search for somebody to clean the school, starting at minimum wage and working up a dollar an hour every 2 months. It would actually be cheaper to hire a cleaning service to come in and do it, but a lot of times Father is penny wise and pound foolish. The school sat there for months and was given a lick and a promise by the faculty, kids and the principal.

Kids by state law and liability insurance cannot shovel snow and do a host of other chores. When real maintenance needed doing, of course kids and teachers had no idea how to proceed.

Now you want to do away with the hardest working member of our team, the DRE. This is the person who arranges liturgies, ensures each of the faculty and staff of the school is properly trained and deputized, along with the CCD crew.

In a perfect world, maybe this is so. Maybe it should be this way. I just don’t see it happening here.

 

[puzzleannie]

my parish went the volunteer route the year before they hired me. she did a magnificent job but her marriage and family suffered, that’s why she quit. me and every other DRE I know does the work of 3 people, 50-60 hrs a week, with low pay, believe me, you won’t find a volunteer willing to do what we do. the volunteers you may be thinking of, besides catechists, who are seldom paid, are the coordinators. They are the ones who unlock the door, turn on the lights and a/c, make sure everyone finds the right classroom, distribute books and supplies, clean up and close up the building.

What is the DRE doing while this is going on during a CCD session? Number one is being available to catechists, students and parents. I try to visit each classroom once a month to support the catechist, get to know them and their teaching style, check up on what is going on (you would not believe some of the stuff I have seen and heard, by the way). I assist with discipline problems, calling parents if necessary and the necessary conferences. It is essential that the DRE and coordinators be visible during a session. That is how abuses are prevented, by creating a climate where they cannot occur. It is also a requirement in dioceses that have implemented Safe Environment programs, as mandated by the bishops.

By the way, paperwork and training related to Safe Environment (including Virtus training for volunteers and Touching Safetey for kids) takes up an inordinate amount of time.

Besides the administrative work - selecting and ordering texts, bibles, catechisms, resources, consumable supplies etc. and managing the budget with all the reporting that entails, there is the process of registering and tracking the children and families, recording sacraments and attendance, establishing and maintaining permanent records etc.

Parent/sponsor meetings - 3 for each sacrament a child receives, in English and Spanish. Planning, preparing the materials, including reviewing videos and handouts, and presentation.

RCIA by itself takes a lot of time out of proportion to the number of adults and children participating.

Planning the program takes the greatest amount of time. Texts, videos, all resources used must be reviewed to make sure they are in compliance with the CCC, and that is harder than it looks. It is not enough to select something from a supposedly reliable publisher. you must also make sure it is something your catechists can make use of effectively. You can’t just hand someone a textbook and a manual and tell them to teach. Every book we get (such as a guide to the Mass, confirmation journal etc.) must be reviewed with the catechists to make sure they use it most effectively, and that it promotes what they are trying to teach.

My number one job is to recruit catechists and oversee their formation, in doctrine and spirituality. There is a catechist formation session of some kind every month, an annual retreat and days of recollection in the penitential seasons. One fourth to one third of our catechests (64) are new each year and require several hours of mandatory orientation (plus another 3 hours of Protecting God’s Children). There are 32 hours of prescribed classes from the diocese, plus sessions for each age level, sacraments, scripture etc. We do not let anyone teach bible study to youth and adults without being sure they have some training.

Then there are diocesan meetings with colleagues so neighboring parishes and deaneries work together and my own formation.
this post is way too long, so I will shut up now.

 

[lel]

I didn’t realize it wasn’t customary to charge something. I also read that average giving is something like $7.50 per household.

 

[puzzleannie]

forgot to say my salary and benefits is less than 15% of the CCD/evangelization budget.

the answer to paying for everything the parish does is and always has been tithing. parishes that do it can support Catholic education, the physical plant necessary to serve the faithful and the liturgy, and engage in ministry and apostolates. Parishes that don’t will always struggle. parishes are like families, when their priorities are in order, and their material goods ordered to God’s will, they will have everything they need to carry out that will. When their priorities are disordered, not.

 

[kaj3]

Sorry I haven’t gotten back to this thread…the reason I originally asked was because I know of a parish where you have to commit a certain amount of money (in the Sunday collection) or a certain amount of your volunteer time for the year to have your children in faith formation OR you have to pay over $500/child for ff.

It’s called Total Stewardship. I don’t know all of the details – it’s not my parish – but the way I understand it, the students who actually attend private school at the church pay a reduced tuition. They rely on all parishoners to make up the difference. And so, to be fair to the school, the faith formation program is requiring that parents who want to sign their kids up sign a convenant pledging x amt of money or time or if you don’t want to pledge, then pay the flat $550.

I guess it baffles me that this is being done. Is this type of program better than a per student tuition in the school or the ff program?? I’m still trying to gather some details. It just doesn’t add up to me.

 

[puzzleannie]

I guess it baffles me that this is being done. Is this type of program better than a per student tuition in the school or the ff program?? I’m still trying to gather some details. It just doesn’t add up to me.

since you don’t have all the details, and since the information you need to make a judgement is probably freely available from the parish, why not inquire and get your questions answered before making a decision?

if this is your parish, you should already know what the policy is on stewardship, parishioner responsibilities etc… since stewardship Sunday is usually in October, most parishes will probably have some kind of explanation, financial report etc. at that time as well.

 

[kaj3]

since you don’t have all the details, and since the information you need to make a judgement is probably freely available from the parish, why not inquire and get your questions answered before making a decision?

if this is your parish, you should already know what the policy is on stewardship, parishioner responsibilities etc… since stewardship Sunday is usually in October, most parishes will probably have some kind of explanation, financial report etc. at that time as well.

It’s not my parish. The information I have gotten is from someone who is going through this with her own children. It’s more of a curiousity on my part since she already made her decision.

I guess it’s just odd to me that a parish is making you commit to a certain amount of money or volunteerism in order to educate your kids. I would think that if you started from the point of orthodoxy – that is sound Catholic liturgy and teaching – then shouldn’t everything after that fall into place for the parish? Is that just idealism on my part? I just feel like the parish would create resentment and bitterness if they started from a place of money. I don’t know. Maybe I’m totally wrong. My parish would never do this so my perspective is much different.

 

[Chris-WA]

Sorry I haven’t gotten back to this thread…the reason I originally asked was because I know of a parish where you have to commit a certain amount of money (in the Sunday collection) or a certain amount of your volunteer time for the year to have your children in faith formation OR you have to pay over $500/child for ff.

It’s called Total Stewardship. I don’t know all of the details – it’s not my parish – but the way I understand it, the students who actually attend private school at the church pay a reduced tuition. They rely on all parishoners to make up the difference. And so, to be fair to the school, the faith formation program is requiring that parents who want to sign their kids up sign a convenant pledging x amt of money or time or if you don’t want to pledge, then pay the flat $550.

I guess it baffles me that this is being done. Is this type of program better than a per student tuition in the school or the ff program?? I’m still trying to gather some details. It just doesn’t add up to me.

In a way I think this is a pretty good idea. The price seems very steep, but I like the concept of requiring parental involvement. Too often the parents just drop off their kids and expect the church to do all the work. Officially the Catholic Church teaches that the parents are the primary instructors for their children’s faith formation. Unfortunatly, I think I can safely say that the majority of parents are sadly failing in this capacity, so the church has to take up all the slack, which it can never really do well. I’ve taught different grades of RE, including junior high, and I was astounded to see that most the kids came in knowing nothing about the faith, and I’m talking about the most basic things. Their parents have done nothing to teach them other than going to mass once in a while. I would like to see a policy that requires the parents to attend adult RE in order for their kids to attend children’s RE. That of course would require the parish to have an adult RE program, which many do not, but God knows every parish desperately needs one. It’s a question of priorities. If parents took their divine obligation seriously to instruct their children in the faith, they would have no problem attending an RE class at the same time their kids do (Sundays work great before or after mass).

 

[Chris-WA]

I also read that average giving is something like $7.50 per household.

Terrible, isn’t it? That is a true demonstration of your average Catholic’s commitment to the faith. That is why we have DRE’s who have to break their backs trying to keep a program running. Too few good people doing way too much of the work.

 

[dkoinzan]

A truly Catholic Education is priceless! I would sacrifice a great deal for my children to get such an education. Such an education is hard to come by. I believe that if true Catholic education was taught and reinforced from the pulpit, there would be enough money coming in to give a free CCD program. A five day Catholic School would be offered for a minimal fee.

 

[kaj3]

In a way I think this is a pretty good idea. The price seems very steep, but I like the concept of requiring parental involvement. Too often the parents just drop off their kids and expect the church to do all the work. Officially the Catholic Church teaches that the parents are the primary instructors for their children’s faith formation. Unfortunatly, I think I can safely say that the majority of parents are sadly failing in this capacity, so the church has to take up all the slack, which it can never really do well. I’ve taught different grades of RE, including junior high, and I was astounded to see that most the kids came in knowing nothing about the faith, and I’m talking about the most basic things. Their parents have done nothing to teach them other than going to mass once in a while. I would like to see a policy that requires the parents to attend adult RE in order for their kids to attend children’s RE. That of course would require the parish to have an adult RE program, which many do not, but God knows every parish desperately needs one. It’s a question of priorities. If parents took their divine obligation seriously to instruct their children in the faith, they would have no problem attending an RE class at the same time their kids do (Sundays work great before or after mass).

I agree 100% that more parental involvement is needed, but that is not what this program is advocating. The program is gaining parental money, not involvement.

To your second point about parents having to attend RE if their children do…I like that idea in theory, but were I to be one of these parents, I would feel resentful about having to do something like that. And so, are you really changing minds and converting hearts, or are you just turning people away from the Church?

 

[Jennifer_J]

I agree 100% that more parental involvement is needed, but that is not what this program is advocating. The program is gaining parental money, not involvement.

To your second point about parents having to attend RE if their children do…I like that idea in theory, but were I to be one of these parents, I would feel resentful about having to do something like that. And so, are you really changing minds and converting hearts, or are you just turning people away from the Church?

Our MN Parish uses whole community catechesis. The children are doing CCD each week and there are bible studies and speakers for the adults during the same time and we are starting something called RENEW during Lent. Parents are encouraged to attend, but don’t have to. It’s supposed to be for the whole community, though some people (those that send their children to the Catholic school) feel they are exempt from it (btw, my children attend the parish school and still attend faith formation).

Our Parish also has something called Fair Share tuition. You pay what you can afford (with a base minimum) and then must pledge to fundraise and offer time and talent regularly. The Parish covers the shortfall for those who can’t afford to pay the actual amount to educate the children.

I would suggest you don’t have all the information to make a judgement about what the parish you are talking about is doing. After being on our Faith Formation committee, I’ve found that people make assumptions and don’t understand the entire process until having it explained several times, and even then, if it doesn’t meet their preconceived notions in some way, they bad mouth the ideas and refuse to see any good points about it or refuse to understand what’s going on. This may not be the case with your friend, but it sounds like something is being lost in the translation!

Jennifer

 

[kaj3]

I would suggest you don’t have all the information to make a judgement about what the parish you are talking about is doing. After being on our Faith Formation committee, I’ve found that people make assumptions and don’t understand the entire process until having it explained several times, and even then, if it doesn’t meet their preconceived notions in some way, they bad mouth the ideas and refuse to see any good points about it or refuse to understand what’s going on. This may not be the case with your friend, but it sounds like something is being lost in the translation!

Jennifer

Yep – I think you are totally right, Jennifer. I don’t have all of the information and since I’m not on the inside getting the information, I have all kinds of preconceived notions which are probably misconceptions.

I think what bothered me about it was the attitude or the approach that the parish staff went about in bringing this change to the faith formation parents. My friend felt like it was shoved down her throat and it’s such a personal decision to her that she felt resentful about having to commit x amt of money or time/talent.

So maybe it’s not the program itself but the way it was brought about. When she went to meetings to try to get more information, she didn’t feel like her concerns were being heard or considered. It was just kind of a take or leave it deal – take or leave the SACRAMENTS, mind you.

But for me, it raises another question – probably for another thread – well, this isn’t going to come out right, but at some point are we putting so much attention on the faith community and fellowship that we lose sight of the sacraments and the mystery of the church? Maybe it’s my temperament(melancholic/comtemplative), but I truly struggle with mainstream Catholic churches that focus more on music liturgy or the fall festival --and as an extension “community”-type programs – than the Eucharist.

See to me, if the Eucharist and the mystery that surrounds it is at the core of your parish focus, everything else stems from that. And one could say that fellowship is part of the Eucharist – yes, I understand – but at what point does the part become more than the whole? This is a struggle for me. I’m not trying to denigrate those churches that have that focus – but I personally find them distracting. In other words, when I go to parishes like that, I find that I have to work harder (than I do at my own parish which focuses less about community) to remember why I’m there and what is actually occurring.

 

[Evan]

Our Catholic School had something similar. Volunteer or pay.

But the volunteer was talked about, organized, and many many ways to volunteer were available. It was assumed that we would all be involved with our kids and the school

The pay option was only in the documentation you received upon enrolling. There in the fine print. If you failed to meet the number of hours, you would need to pay $50 for every hour you missed. Paying was not encouraged but presented as an emergency way to meet your obligations if something happened and you could not make the volunteer commitment.

I think the price was steep because they did not want anyone to pay, but everyone to volunteer.

 

[kaj3]

I would suggest you don’t have all the information to make a judgement about what the parish you are talking about is doing. After being on our Faith Formation committee, I’ve found that people make assumptions and don’t understand the entire process until having it explained several times, and even then, if it doesn’t meet their preconceived notions in some way, they bad mouth the ideas and refuse to see any good points about it or refuse to understand what’s going on. This may not be the case with your friend, but it sounds like something is being lost in the translation!

Jennifer

Yes – I think your right, Jennifer, about me making assumptions. After getting more information, I think that what bothered me more than anything is that this program was a take it or leave it deal. In other words – take or leave the SACRAMENTS – was the attitude that my friend encountered. When she went to meetings to get more information, she didn’t feel like her concerns were being heard or addressed. So maybe it was mainly in the approach.

It brings up another point – albeit related, but probably for another thread – in that, I wonder if we are focusing too much on “community” than we are the Eucharist and the mystery that surrounds it.

I do not mean to denigrate any parish, for this is my own opionion, but I find that when I attend a parish that appears to be focused more on their music liturgy than the liturgy itself or the fall festival or what have you – these parishes are distracting to me, in that I have to work harder when I attend to remember what is actually taking place on the altar.

And by extension of this community focus, there are programs such as the one Jennifer J describes that make me leary. I am uncomfortable when I hear about programs like that because the Eucharist should be at the core of every parish – and yes, fellowship is a part of the Eucharist, I understand – but at what point are we focusing more on the part than the whole?

If our parishes are truly Christ-centered, do you need programs like that? And that’s my question. Will order and grace for a parish community flow in abundance when we make the core and focus of our parish the Eucharist?

I’m sure much of that didn’t come out right…Again, I’m not trying to denigrate any parish communities or the people who no doubt have excellent intentions. I truly struggle with this question. I don’t know…maybe it’s my temperament (melancholic/contemplative).

 

[kaj3]

sorry – I didn’t think my first post posted, so I posted again…ah technology. Well…there you have it…my thoughts times two.