What do you think about parishes charging for faith formation?

[Chris-WA]

I agree 100% that more parental involvement is needed, but that is not what this program is advocating. The program is gaining parental money, not involvement.

Oh, I see. The way you described it in your earlier post was that parents had the choice to either volunteer their time or pay a rather large sum (around $500). Perhaps the high fee is meant to discourage parents from paying and encourage them to volunteer instead. That’s really what the church needs anyway.

To your second point about parents having to attend RE if their children do…I like that idea in theory, but were I to be one of these parents, I would feel resentful about having to do something like that. And so, are you really changing minds and converting hearts, or are you just turning people away from the Church?

I think Catholics have become so used to having so little expected of them that more drastic measures are required to jump start the program. It’s human nature to be lazy when expectations are so low. Whether or not they’re initially resentful is of little concern. The fact is that most parents are badly educated in the faith, and something needs to be done. I think that if we developed an expectation of adults attending Sunday school just like their kids are expected to, then the initial resentment would fade as people actually learned about the church and developed an appreciation for its beauty. Remember this–other churches have Sunday school for all ages, and their members have gotten used to this. Do we Catholics have some sort of defect that make such a program impossible? No, I don’t think so. The defect is the low expectation that has been fostered over the last few decades. What we need are courageous priests and laypeople willing to raise expectations by example and encouragement. I was talking with the friend about this very subject and he said in regards to the church, “How can you love what you don’t know?”

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

I’m not sure exactly how it works but this is what I gather at my parish.

We charge for CCD. But what we charge isn’t enough so the faith formation committee has a fund raiser once a year. This brings in enough money to cover the costs with some extra. The extra is then donated to various other groups (this last year they donated to an inner-city church that has a program for children in the summer)

 

[Diaconia]

To the original question of whether a parish should charge for religious education I would offer this suggestion:

At my parish we charge $100 for the year to covers the cost of the materials and partially offsets the other expenses (overhead, audio/visual materials, duplication, utilities, etc.).

The catechists do not get paid, but if they have children, the $100 fee is waived.

We don’t charge for RCIA, and the students that attend our school pay tuition to partially offset the cost of their education.

Fundraising is harmful to parishes. It works against the priciples of stewardship and tithing. We need to teach our people to tithe and their would be no need for charging for CCD or tuition in our Catholic school.

Parishioners that complain about $100 for a year’s worth of CCD would scream bloody murder if they were expected to tithe, or even to give say 3% of their income to the Church.

Mormons do not need paid clergy because their people tithe, it’s as simple as that.

Percentage give is the only “fair” method of funding the needs of the parish. Rich and poor alike should give 2% or 3% of their income to the Church, eventually working up to 5% if they can. If your parish did that:

There would be no need to charge for anything.

There would be no need for fundraisers.

There would be no need (thank God) for bingo.

And the parish would have the ability to fund other needs directly as well (start your own food pantry or homeless shelter or rest home).

Stewardship is a way of life – the only way of life.

God bless you all,

 

[kaj3]

Oh, I see. The way you described it in your earlier post was that parents had the choice to either volunteer their time or pay a rather large sum (around $500). Perhaps the high fee is meant to discourage parents from paying and encourage them to volunteer instead. That’s really what the church needs anyway.

I didn’t make myself clear. They do have the choice to pay or volunteer – but the volunteerism doesn’t necessarily need to be in the RE program. It could be on the raffle committee - just some sort of time commitment.

I think Catholics have become so used to having so little expected of them that more drastic measures are required to jump start the program. It’s human nature to be lazy when expectations are so low. Whether or not they’re initially resentful is of little concern. The fact is that most parents are badly educated in the faith, and something needs to be done. I think that if we developed an expectation of adults attending Sunday school just like their kids are expected to, then the initial resentment would fade as people actually learned about the church and developed an appreciation for its beauty. Remember this–other churches have Sunday school for all ages, and their members have gotten used to this. Do we Catholics have some sort of defect that make such a program impossible? No, I don’t think so. The defect is the low expectation that has been fostered over the last few decades. What we need are courageous priests and laypeople willing to raise expectations by example and encouragement. I was talking with the friend about this very subject and he said in regards to the church, “How can you love what you don’t know?”

I can’t agree with you more that adults are poorly educated about the faith, and that something should be done. My preference would be that this is done from the pulpit.

I was having a conversation with someone about this too – a cradle Catholic – she’s not anywhere near leaving the Church or anything like that, but she’s fed up with “organized religion”. Obviously, she has a disconnect, but I fear an education program like the one you describe would only validate those feelings. Well, maybe not – I guess it would really depend on what/how it was taught. I guess, I have a tunnel vision becuase I had such a rotten experience with CCD when I was growing up – watered down waste of time – that would not want to see that repeated.

Maybe todays RCIA programs are different than my CCD classes growing up – I’ve never been to RCIA and I certainly hope they are. People are hungry for the truth.

 

[kaj3]

Fundraising is harmful to parishes. It works against the priciples of stewardship and tithing. We need to teach our people to tithe and their would be no need for charging for CCD or tuition in our Catholic school.

Parishioners that complain about $100 for a year’s worth of CCD would scream bloody murder if they were expected to tithe, or even to give say 3% of their income to the Church.

Mormons do not need paid clergy because their people tithe, it’s as simple as that.

Percentage give is the only “fair” method of funding the needs of the parish. Rich and poor alike should give 2% or 3% of their income to the Church, eventually working up to 5% if they can. If your parish did that:

There would be no need to charge for anything.

There would be no need for fundraisers.

There would be no need (thank God) for bingo.

And the parish would have the ability to fund other needs directly as well (start your own food pantry or homeless shelter or rest home).

Stewardship is a way of life – the only way of life.

I totally agree with this, Diaconia. This is how my parish operates, but most that I know of do not operate this way. Part of this thread is how to go about changing that, but much of it is idealism given our current church culture in the US, IMO. And some people say that fundraising/stewardship programs work in their parish.

 

[mercygate]

I totally agree with this, Diaconia. This is how my parish operates, but most that I know of do not operate this way. Part of this thread is how to go about changing that, but much of it is idealism given our current church culture in the US, IMO. And some people say that fundraising/stewardship programs work in their parish.

Our parish launched an aggressive tithing campaign last spring and since June our weekly income has gone from about $7 to about $13K.

 

[dkoinzan]

The Parish I attend is having a great deal of finacial problems. The preist has asked us to fast and pray to try to get this situation resolved. I totally agree with the fasting and praying, but unfortunately there are a great deal of people that don’t understand. They don’t understand how fasting and praying could somehow make money. Fasting and praying can work, but now without the truth being taught. Its like a cycle. Those that haven’t been taught the truth, only focus on money and loss sight of the fact that we are suppose to love one another as Christ loves. We should all want the very best for eachother. The very best is heaven, to be with Jesus. It seems that in our parish the struggle to get more money takes us even further from what God has ask us to be.

 

[Island_Oak]

Our current parish charges $100/child for RE but caps the per family total at $300. Since all the teachers are volunteers and we pay for books separately, I assume the fees go to facilities expenses (classes are held in the parish school)–extra lighting, heat, etc. expense as well as custodial time (?).

I did try and volunteer one year. I co-taught a 4th grade class and it was a nightmare. About 1/3 of the kids were rude, disruptive, unprepared, unattentive, etc. I felt it was a waste of my time and perhaps even a waste of my own kids’ time as the class was sometimes little more that a glorifed babysitting session. I continue to send my kids because they attend public school and I want them to get to know some of the local Catholic kids/families. Also–without attending RE we would have little connection to this parish–which offers few other community service/ministries with which to get involved.

 

[Chris-WA]

I can’t agree with you more that adults are poorly educated about the faith, and that something should be done. My preference would be that this is done from the pulpit.

If by “from the pulpit” you mean the homily, I don’t see how that could be enough. The homily is supposed to be used as a time to reflect on the Sunday scriptures and relate them to our lives. Sometimes you get some catechesis in there, but there is no way that would ever be sufficient to educate the masses. What I think is needed is organized adult RE. We are getting creamed by other churches because they do it and we don’t. That’s why we lose so many Catholics to Protestant and other faiths.

I was having a conversation with someone about this too – a cradle Catholic – she’s not anywhere near leaving the Church or anything like that, but she’s fed up with “organized religion”. Obviously, she has a disconnect, but I fear an education program like the one you describe would only validate those feelings. Well, maybe not – I guess it would really depend on what/how it was taught. I guess, I have a tunnel vision becuase I had such a rotten experience with CCD when I was growing up – watered down waste of time – that would not want to see that repeated.

Yeah, I had lousy CCD growing up too. The answer is not to throw RE away, however, but to make it better. Perhaps if Rome published a world-wide syllabus for each grade (and for adults) we could get some consistency and focus on stuff all Catholics should know about Catholicism. There is so much inconsistency from one diocese to another that there seems to be no standards. Also, we should never worry about whom we might lose by trying to get people more committed to the faith via education. It’s the education that will help keep Catholics from leaving in the first place. I’m convinced that the more you learn about this faith, the more beautiful and precious it becomes. I know that worked on me.

 

[puzzleannie]

That seems a bit extreme. The Church does not require this, although I think the schools are wonderful.

yes it is extreme, yes the Church does teach it, that parents are the primary religious educators of their children and that it is the function duty and purpose of the parish to facilitate them in this task. The bishops of this country indeed insisted that to properly fulfill this duty, made in their promises at their child’s baptism, parents should send their children to Catholic schools. John Cardinal Neuman of Phila, Mother Elizabeth Seton and other great figures of the American Church were instrumental in convincing bishops and congregations of the vital importance of Catholic schools. As I have stated, in those days parishes saw as their first priority building the school, then building the church.
The decline of Catholic schools is the underlying reason and symptom of the crisis state of the faith in this country. My opinion is shared by Fr. Peter Stravinskas and other noted apologists, by the way.

the answer is not tithing alone, it is tithing as part of embracing total stewardship, the laity consecrating their families, work, homes and children to God and living up to their baptismal commitments. When families have their own priorities in order with God first, which stewardship of time, talent and treasure signifies, then the parish will also reorder its priorities.

 

[kaj3]

If by “from the pulpit” you mean the homily, I don’t see how that could be enough. The homily is supposed to be used as a time to reflect on the Sunday scriptures and relate them to our lives. Sometimes you get some catechesis in there, but there is no way that would ever be sufficient to educate the masses. What I think is needed is organized adult RE. We are getting creamed by other churches because they do it and we don’t. That’s why we lose so many Catholics to Protestant and other faiths…

yes, I meant the homily. maybe you’re right that it would take more than that. But, it’s a start. For instance, what would happen if people who were not well-versed in their Catholic faith started to hear truths of the faith that weren’t watered down? You can have a reflection on the scripture and still pull in traditions of our faith – in fact, our parish priests do this all of the time.

Yeah, I had lousy CCD growing up too. The answer is not to throw RE away, however, but to make it better. Perhaps if Rome published a world-wide syllabus for each grade (and for adults) we could get some consistency and focus on stuff all Catholics should know about Catholicism. There is so much inconsistency from one diocese to another that there seems to be no standards. Also, we should never worry about whom we might lose by trying to get people more committed to the faith via education. It’s the education that will help keep Catholics from leaving in the first place. I’m convinced that the more you learn about this faith, the more beautiful and precious it becomes. I know that worked on me.

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I’m still not convinced required adult RE is the way to go. It seems to be a slap in the face of our free will that God gave us. And again, it has to start in the home. It has to start from a personal place in each individuals heart and spread from there. I feel like a classroom would be outside in, instead of inside out. Maybe not for everybody, of course. I’m sure for some a classroom situation would really be successful.

But how do you measure it? Do you test out? I could pass a Catholic RE test right now, but that doesn’t mean that my heart is necessarily in the right place with God. So, I could test out of the class and still not instill truth in my children.

I just think that people need to be inspired by the Holy Spirit to go forth, not forced.

I hear what you are saying – we have to start somewhere and it seems that many adults just go through the motions with little or no knowledge of what’s going on or why they are doing it. And that gets passed on to their kids. It just seems like something is still missing – in both of our answers.

 

[Chris-WA]

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I’m still not convinced required adult RE is the way to go. It seems to be a slap in the face of our free will that God gave us.

The Church has the authority to require such things of its members, such as going to confession at least once a year and attending mass regularly. Those things are not a slap in the face of our free will. They are the basics we need. I submit that adult RE should be added to the list. Whether or not adults are required to attend, I think it should be required that every parish at least offers adult RE just like they do for the kids.

I’m not saying somebody should get in trouble for not going or someone should track the names of who is attending. What I am saying is that every parish should at least have an adult RE program that teaches authentic Catholicism from approved sources like the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I do think it’s fair that if parents expect the church to educate their children in RE, then the church can expect the parents to attend adult RE to help the parents meet their responsibilies of teaching the faith at home. Where did we ever get the idea that the formal education provided by the church should end with confirmation? Again, I would say that we should look to the example set by our Protestant brothers and sisters, many of whom attend Sunday school as adults almost every Sunday of the year in addition to their worship services.

But how do you measure it? Do you test out? I could pass a Catholic RE test right now, but that doesn’t mean that my heart is necessarily in the right place with God. So, I could test out of the class and still not instill truth in my children.

No, you don’t give tests or keep records. You simply offer the material. It would be the church’s way of really showing that the duty of a parent to raise their children in the faith is a serious one. Believe me, when the truth is taught in all its glory, people will come–a few at first and then it will grow.

I just think that people need to be inspired by the Holy Spirit to go forth, not forced.

Sometimes, and I think that time is now, we need a nudge to get going. God the Father has done it this way throughout all of salvation history. Sitting around waiting for parents to be inspired by the Holy Spirit is not working. Of course, everyone is in a different phase of their spiritual journey, so we have different needs. But we all need the basics, and right now that is sorely lacking. I’m convinced that when you teach people the faith they start to see its beauty. From that comes a strengthened commitment to the the church, which manifests itself in all kinds of positive ways. It’s hard to love what you don’t know.

 

[kaj3]

Sometimes, and I think that time is now, we need a nudge to get going. God the Father has done it this way throughout all of salvation history. Sitting around waiting for parents to be inspired by the Holy Spirit is not working. Of course, everyone is in a different phase of their spiritual journey, so we have different needs. But we all need the basics, and right now that is sorely lacking. I’m convinced that when you teach people the faith they start to see its beauty. From that comes a strengthened commitment to the the church, which manifests itself in all kinds of positive ways. It’s hard to love what you don’t know.

I’m not advocating “sitting around waiting for parents to be inspired”. In context, my statement meant that people need to be open to truth instead of having it shoved down their throat. There are all kinds of people who speak the truth on these forums, but not everyone agrees because they are not necessarily open.

I agree for those who are open to receiving truth, it will spread.

You know, there’s with the last crop of ordinations, I found many of the new priests to be young and energentic and orthodox – much in the same vain as John Paul the Great. They are speaking the truth – for the first time, I am hearing about such things as artificial contraception and why it is wrong during the homily. I think things like that give people sparks to start to question whether they are living their lives in conformity to God’s will. And maybe from that, they will take up an RE class.

I think this problem is multi-layered. There are problems with some bishops, some clergy, some lay people, with our culture, with the unorthodox practice of the liturgy, with our education curriculum, with parents leaving RE up to the schools who have education curriculum problems, etc. I think a solution would require action on several fronts – including yours and including mine, among others.

 

[Memaw]

Children or adults? Schools cost a lot of money to run. They have to pay teachers and staff, cover utility costs and maintainence, etc, as well as books and materials. So I see some compensation for all that as fair.
Adult faith formation classes…I see that differently. Most RCIA classes have volunteer teachers, and use Church facilities. I’ve never heard of them being charged for.

I agree, Teak, I taught CCD for over 20 years and there were times that I bought some material myself because the fees did not cover everything. Each teacher was allowed so much a year for material.

To have a free will offering is OK for other events if needed for utilities etc. I think most parishes are like that. What in the world ever prompted this question anyway. These decisions are up to the Parish Council and the Pastor, I think.

 

[Memaw]

I’m torn on this one. Given the utterly abysmal level of catechisis that many Catholics have these days I want to say pay any price at all. Even for something as nebulous as Faith Formation, which depending where you are can be just about anything.

However, after thinking it over I have to say that it should be free.

I see no reason at all to have lay DREs. That should be the Pastors job. Instructors, yes, as long as they have had some religious training and certification from the Diocese.

Side note, a local Parish had two people sign up for its RCIA program. The DRE said it was impossible to have a RCIA program with only two people because they would not be able to share effectively, so he sent the two to other Parishes for instruction.

So I will pose the question. Prior to Vatican II a convert received instruction from a Priest, singly or in a group. Thousands if not millions converted under that system effectively. I know that the Church now uses the RCIA program and fostering a sense of community is important under that system.

But what type of community do you show when you farm your catechumans out to other parishes because you feel that sharing is the main goal of the program instead of religious instruction?

I know somewhat off topic and I apologize.

I don’t see anything wrong with them going to a bigger class in another parish, the important thing is they are being instructed. I have taken probably more that 50 instruction classes, (with my converts, so we could discus the lessons,) in my lifetime. I taught adults also, and I found that the converts are more comfortable in a larger class, some will ask questions that others may have but don’t think of at the time. As far as private instructions from a priest, I think that is possible still if a person wants it. But the priests today are so busy, they need to depend on RCIA, etc, to help them out. Our priests come to RCIA often and talk and answer questions, etc.

 

[Memaw]

The first thing that needs to be done is realize that the parish school is not what it used to be. A CATHOLIC school for the CATHOLIC children of the parish. Most Catholic schools are simply private schools today and should simply support themselves without help from the parish. Here Religion teachers are volunteers from the parish and are not paid school staff.

There are some positions that may need to be paid in a parish like secretary or maintance. However there should be retired or semi-retired people in the parish who can fill these positions. We volunteer our time for many things in the community, That time should be used in the parish community when necessary.

A parish should provide certain ministries to the parish community as resources allow, in a certain order of importance based on the mission of the Catholic Church. Liturgical and Sacramental, Evangelization next, Catechesis next, and so on.

Your right, the parish school is NOT what it used to be. When I was young we had NUNS that taught every grade in our school and in all Catholic Schools that I knew of. IN her habit, no extra fee for her hard work and dedication. Then after Vat.II many of them, gave up the habit, left to explore the world, do their own thing, or whatever. The Church had to work out other ways of teaching her families. Give me a break, if you don’t like the way your parish does it, then get in there and help out, maybe your ideas would be helpful and used. If you don’t vote, then don’t complain who your leaders are.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’m not talking about charging for books or program materials – sure that’s fine. But should parishes charge parishoners for faith formation beyond books/materials? If so, how much? What is an acceptable amount? $100/student? $300? $500? Other?

What do you think?

No! The cost of the program (books, supplies, equipment, teacher training, etc. Ok if the parish budget does not cover it from Sunday collections.

 

[CB_Catholic]

This thread is 5 years old. I know you are new here, so one hint is to always look at the date before responding to posts. You are always free to start a new thread.

 

[EasterJoy]

Your right, the parish school is NOT what it used to be. When I was young we had NUNS that taught every grade in our school and in all Catholic Schools that I knew of. IN her habit, no extra fee for her hard work and dedication. Then after Vat.II many of them, gave up the habit, left to explore the world, do their own thing, or whatever.

I still wonder at the attitude that implies that if things were as they should be, religious sisters would be bearing the cost for laypeople who could afford to compensate them as the laypeople would expect to be compensated. I grew up where the laypeople also put in hard work, dedication, and money to the Church at a level far beyond what is seen today. The drain of laypeople who did not want to sign on for that level of dedication started well before Vatican II.

If you look at how consecrated religious live today, they have not shifted to “doing their own thing” nearly so much as lay Catholics have. Rather, there are far fewer of them, and they don’t have enough to spare from the care of the truly needed to take care of those who could take care of themselves.

The demographic that is growing by leaps and bounds in the Catholic Church is not sisters and lay brothers (also formerly staffing schools) who are out “doing their own thing”, but young lay Catholics, male and female, who are neither marrying nor joining religious communities. Now, among those in this demographic who are joining religious communities, they much prefer to join the orders that are the most clearly different from the life open to a single lay Catholic without making any commitment! No doubt about that! The larger problem, however, is the number of us who not only want the more liberal boundaries of the most liberal orders, but far more liberal boundaries even than that. I think if we want religious vocations such as we used to see, then the norm of life among lay Catholics, whether married or not, is the main place to start.

I mean this: Parents, if you want to see sisters like you used to see, ask yourself whether you have the kind of home that raises sisters and the friends of sisters such as you used to see. Ask yoruself if your children know that you would welcome a religious vocation in your own home, if you would rather give a child to God than have God give you any number of grandchildren. If you are doing that, if you have a home where self-sacrifice for the faith is the norm, then you are doing more to address the absence of those dear self-sacrificing sisters than just complaining about it!

 

[puzzleannie]

this thread began 5 years ago
per forum rules I am starting a knew kill the messenger thread about RE/PSR/CCD fees on the evangelization forum where such a discussion properly belongs and you can beat up us DREs to your heart’s content for implementing policies we did not enact and in which we had no voice.