What do YOU think about Us Catholics and our veneration of Mary

[MichaelP3]

I tend to think God’s DIVINE plan of SALVATION would not have been hindered if she said “no”.

 

[Kei]

Oh but Jesus is produced (not in any way that is improper, but you get what I mean) in the souls of more and more people all the time! We are to grow more in Him and Him in us, you see, it’s not a one time thing of accepting Jesus and then becoming like Him right there, but a process. Lest, one who sins after baptism would have much cause for sadness beyond what he already holds.

 

[Kei]

God chose the way He chose for His reasons…
Would He have just come and walked into the world?
Ah, but He chose to assume human nature, to be the child of a devout Jewish woman, and to grow as a child to a human.

Rather than saying His Divine Plan would not have been ruined, which I find incomprehensible, it is more He knew of this Plan forever, and Mary was formed, not as a mere tool to be cast aside, but as a human with this plan in mind; God knows the end from the beginning. God knew she would say yes, and He I do not see why He wouldn’t know what you’ve chosen to eat today.

She had the most blessed role in all Creation: to carry God.

 

[mcq72]

She had the most blessed role in all Creation: to carry God.

Yes, predestined to be so,before the foundations of the world were laid, in His foreknowledge

 

[Kei]

Indeed, though I am not sure predestination is the correct term; but certainly in His foreknowledge.

 

[MichaelP3]

I appreciate your answer and read it very thoroughly. Thank you.

However it still doesn’t answer the question. (And I feel I need to state as a non-Catholic I have no issue with Catholics venerating Mary. )

You stated 2 points that could be used to venerate Mary. Either her humble “yes” as is so many times stated or the fact that she was specifically formed for this?

So why is she Venerated? By the fact that she carried Jesus or because she said “yes” she will. The first one makes sense and I have no other argument. The latter makes it sound like it was a Divine plan and would have happened either way. Also the latter should make one wonder exactly about God’s Divine plan.

 

[Kei]

God has foreknowledge. He knows the end from the beginning. “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”.
However, as we have free will it should not be presumed that this means predestination, as in there is no choice in our will. You know if you ate anything for breakfast this morning, and if so, what it was. Does your knowing this mean that your choice at the time wasn’t free? Imagine if you were timeless!

But that’s off track. You’re asking why we venerate Mary? Why, there’s just so very many reasons.

One reason is that she is very holy. We venerate in general very holy people as good examples, and as saints who pray for us in Heaven.

Another reason, connected to the first, is that she literally carried God. That should be mind blowing. The graces obtained in this! The utter intimacy between them!
Another reason is that she is the mother of the King of the Universe! We venerate the family of a king on earth, how much moreso should we venerate the mother of our Lord?

And so much more, there’s just so much spiritual depth I can’t hope to explain as just a primer.

 

[PJM]

“Salvation is of the Jews.”, so said Christ.

He did not say salvation is of the HG and Mary to the woman at the well, though it be the crowning moment of Judaism

But i understand the CC’s position, placing her role, continuing role, above all apostles and patriarchs, at the right hand of the Throne, forever CoRedeemer

Shalom!

Were not Jesus and Mary from David’s line? Were they NOT “Jews”

But my friend we do not apply the term “C-Redeemer”; both Redemption and possible salvation are from and Through Jesus directly and exclusively.

May God guide your life path,

Blessings,
PJM

 

[PJM]

However it still doesn’t answer the question. (And I feel I need to state as a non-Catholic I have no issue with Catholics venerating Mary. )

You stated 2 points that could be used to venerate Mary. Either her humble “yes” as is so many times stated or the fact that she was specifically formed for this?

So why is she Venerated? By the fact that she carried Jesus or because she said “yes” she will. The first one makes sense and I have no other argument. The latter makes it sound like it was a Divine plan and would have happened either way. Also the latter should make one wonder exactly about God’s Divine plan.

However it still doesn’t answer the question. (And I feel I need to state as a non-Catholic I have no issue with Catholics venerating Mary. )
You stated 2 points that could be used to venerate Mary. Either her humble “yes” as is so many times stated or the fact that she was specifically formed for this?
So why is she Venerated? By the fact that she carried Jesus or because she said “yes” she will. The first one makes sense and I have no other argument. The latter makes it sound like it was a Divine plan and would have happened either way. Also the latter should make one wonder exactly about God’s Divine plan.

Hi Michael,

I’m Patrick {PJM] the OP

Permit me my friend to try to clarify your points.

First Mary was “Chosen” as God’s choice to be His Mother {IF, If She freely choose to agree to all that meant and would entail}. Of course as GOD, Mary’s response was known; BUT NOT influenced. It had to be Mary’s Freewill choice.

God’s” All-Knowing” also was the reason that Jesus {time does not exist for GOD, to whom everything is “present,”] freely choose to have Her conceived without the stain of Original sin. Jesus choose to do this but did not HAVE to do it.

Mary, by and through Her freewill and accepting fully every Grace God offered to He {and they were plentiful}, was able to reject every temptation to sin {which were ALSO plentiful}, but in every case Mary CHOOSE GOD over sin; thus becoming the only truly Perfect human being ever to love. (Jesus always possessed two perfect natures: His perfect human nature AND always His Perfect Divine Nature as well.

The WHY question you ask is answered as BOTH, as these two factors are insuperable.
Mary HAD to freely say YES, in order to become the very Mother of our God; as a 1 in BILLIONS of others choices that God had in choosing Mary.

Bod Bless you, and may He continue to guide your life path, PJM

 

[mcq72]

But my friend we do not apply the term “C-Redeemer”; both Redemption and possible salvation are from and Through Jesus directly and exclusively.

Yes and no…but then one can say the IC was not an approved term either until 1854. The term co redemptrix goes back almost as far as IC…2nd vat did not approve title not because it wasn’t true or part of tradition, but that the exact wording ,definition, needed fine tuning so as not to upset the separated brethren…many feel soon a definitive declaration. ex cathedra, will be declared, and the pope has been asked to do so

Even the IC declaration has plenty of fertile soil ,even the seed , for the title of co redeemer

The title does not deny Christ as our redeemer nor does it elevate Mary beyond being human.

 

[lilypadrees]

The title does not deny Christ as our redeemer nor does it elevate Mary beyond being human.

Nor do Catholics deny that Jesus the Christ is our Redeemer or that His mother, Mary, is anything more than human. It is Protestants who claim Catholics make her a deity. No, she was and will always be His mother, His human mother.

 

[mcq72]

. It is Protestants who claim Catholics make her a deity. No, she was and will always be His mother, His human mother.

Well, remember we have 30,000 denoms, and therefore opinions on the matter vary. Some may say what you post. More will say you seem to worship her (and worship may or may not presume the object of affection to be diety). Anything that gets more attention or time spent or affection than God can be considered an idol (money, job, toys, tv,etc.). That is how I see some engagement towards Mary by doctrine but more by practice, that they should more reserved for the Holy Ghost (the guidance, the comforting and care for our souls etc)

 

[on_the_hill]

Dear friend in Christ,

What do YOU think about us Catholics and our veneration of Mary?

I don’t think about it. It’s what we do, in one sense or another, and I don’t have any obligation to rationalize it for anyone.

 

[lilypadrees]

I have personally attended the churches of many Protestant denominations and spoken with people who belong to those I haven’t. When the members find out I’m Catholic, the words I hear from them are “Mary worshipper” and “idolator.”

I neither worship Mary nor idolize her or anyone else. And yes, I know that anything can become an idol if it takes the place of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). I learned that long ago.

God is the Pilot of my life. Always has been, always will be. Loving the Blessed Virgin doesn’t change that. She’s not God. I’ve never heard any Protestant say this about her. But ask any Catholic and they will tell you that she is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son and the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She is not a deity. She is fully human. Her Son, Jesus, was born with two perfect natures, one human, the other, Divine. It is He we worship not His mother. And she wouldn’t have it any other way.

 

[mcq72]

Indeed, though I am not sure predestination is the correct term; but certainly in His foreknowledge.

Both terms are correct, and biblical.

You get to the Pearly Gates and the sign going in says,

“Well done , for choosing to serve the Lord”…Joshua 24:15

upon going thru the sign on the other side says ,

You have been predestined since before the Earth’s foundation was laid"…Eph 1:4

 

[mcq72]

I neither worship Mary nor idolize her or anyone else. And yes, I know that anything can become an idol if it takes the place of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). I learned that long ago.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut ,and sorry some may seem brash about Marion Doctrine. Thank you for seeing difference between worship and idolatry (the latter something we all battle).

For me, to read part of what the pope wrote about Mary seems to fit something that takes the place of the Holy Ghost. I also understand that it is different for every individual on this matter, and is not a fit all opinion. It is my opinion only, or how I react to some of the statements, which I have also heard others also say in their personal lives on how they interact with Mary. So part of my posts is to show why some P’s say what they say. Agree that worship is wrong word totally, but idolatry perhaps , and for sure something beyond veneration for some, and in context of what others reserve for the Holy Ghost. I like what you posted, and can agree with your view on Mary, what she is ,and what she isn’t. One can only judge/discern by what people say, by the words of their own mouth.

PS did you read the papal decree of 1854 about Mary? Post #268…it seems to go way beyond what you state about Mary (I don’t mean IC phrase)

 

[mcq72]

Just two weeks ago I concluded such a dialog with a Pentecostal Minister. The grounding issue rest with the word “TRUTH”; they simply are unable {I Believe BLOCKED} from right understandings’; they simply are unable literally from right understanding.

HiP,

lol but do you have the ministers website or where he might post similar frustrations with you on this dialogue?

I mean pretty easy questions to answer , yet you know , the power is in the way a thing is questioned or put forth with “presuppositions”.

I mean I believe you are unable literally from right understanding to see that once right is not always right, and that being guided into all truth is conditional, and that being wrong on some doctrine does not mean Satan has prevailed against you, especially if another brother/magisterium has it right or reformed. The reformers were Catholic. So how do you know if they indeed were “prophets” wrongly outcaste, or were they just rebellious as Korah, to use OT analogies (OT Tradition was right sometimes and wrong other times and did Satan then prevail against Judaism …did everything fall apart ?

lol gotta go PJM, Blessings

 

[Kei]

Yes, but the term has been…shall we say, misused in our modern times, much like the word faith.

 

[PJM]

That conversation was by E-mail and personal.

I don’t feel entitled to get in to names and such; so I’ll decline to provide that information.

May God Guide OUR Life-paths.

Thanks for posting:grinning:

Partick

 

[mcq72]

That conversation was by E-mail and personal.

I don’t feel entitled to get in to names and such; so I’ll decline to provide that information.

May God Guide OUR Life-paths.

Thanks for posting:grinning:

Partick

Did you send him a copy of your post outlining your victorious points ?..grinning also…love your passion Patrick…peace