What do YOU think about Us Catholics and our veneration of Mary

[PJM]

Personally, I dislike Mary’s Veneration. It inevitably lends itself to jealously and agitation.

Perhaps you feel this way because you misunderstand why we venerate her. She was necessary for our salvation by God’s Holy Will. Where would we be without her cooperation in our redemption? Where would we be without God giving a woman the necessary graces so that the supernatural, divine Savior could enter into our humanity without being tainted by it?

Don’t be jealous and agitated. Her “gracehax” (whatever that is) made your salvation a possibility. We owe her veneration for her free cooperation.

I created her; I let Her feed me, teach me, raise me; I trusted and loved Her, living with Her all the years of my life. But then she followed me; Remained with me even when others ran away. She loved me when nobody else did. She IS MY Mother, and from the Cross I have Her you {John 19:-25-28}. Why do you find it so difficult to Love her?

[25]” Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen. [26] When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, {The author of this Gospel; John} he saith to his mother: “WOMAN”, behold THY “SON”. [27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.[28] Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.”

Blessings ARE where we CAN find them

Patrick

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

I stand on the Word of God for everything concerning this issue. So, what does the Bible say about whom we should pray to? God wants us to come to Him alone as a loving Father with our requests . Only God is omniscient and only He has the power to hear and answer our prayers, forgive our sins, protect us and heal us. Nowhere in scripture is a green light given to pray to those who have died, whether or not their eternal destination is in heaven or hell.

In a nutshell, here are a few verses that answer some key questions on this matter:
Whose name should we call upon and whose face should we seek for forgiveness of sin and for healing?:
“ if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14

In whom can we be confident to hear our prayers?:
”Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.” 1 John 5: 14 & 15

To whom should our prayers be directed for EVERYTHING?:
“ Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” Philippians 4: 6 & 7

May all be blessed who read and obey His Word.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

However, because God is not bound by time, He could apply the saving grace of the cross to Mary at the moment of her conception and preserve her free from original sin.

Can you tell me where in the Bible there is support for that view? Thanks.

 

[Vonsalza]

Can you tell me where in the Bible there is support for that view? Thanks.

Fair warning, that won’t have quite the effect you might wish.

Catholics are members of a Church that predate the first writings of the NT by a generation. Moreover, the Church was roughly 60 years old before the NT was even finished being written and the Church was a few 100 years old before the NT was even canonized… by the Church itself.

Ergo Catholics believe in a Church that isn’t limited to only those things that are clearly defined in scripture. Apropos, another example of our extra-biblical belief is in the Trinity. This doctrine wouldn’t be dogmatically established by the Church until Nicaea in 325.

Since you probably also believe in the Trinity, how does it feel to hold a doctrinal view not clearly prescribed in scripture?

 

[Vonsalza]

Dear friend in Christ,

What do YOU think about us Catholics and our veneration of Mary?

After accepting the authority of the Petrine seat, it is the most difficult aspect of Catholicism for this converted “cradle-Baptist” to get used to. But I swam the Tiber after I had kids, so a lot of my mental “concrete” had set; for good or bad.

 

[anon65111186]

Nowhere in scripture is a green light given to pray to those who have died, whether or not their eternal destination is in heaven or hell

Where is the green light to ask people here on earth to pray for you? By that line of thinking, we shouldn’t ask others to pray for us because it isn’t green lighted in scripture.

 

[GLam1761]

Nowhere in scripture is a green light given to pray to those who have died, whether or not their eternal destination is in heaven or hell.

The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus come to mind
the Dead prayed for the Living(the Rich Man for his
brothers), why should the living not pray for the dead?

 

[Elizabeth3]

Can you tell me where in the Bible there is support for that view? Thanks.

It’s not explicitly in the Bible. However, in the papal document, Ineffabilis Deus (1854) on the Immaculate Conception, Pope Pius IX wrote “Indeed, considering the times and circumstances, the Fathers of Trent sufficiently intimated by this declaration that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from the original stain; and thus they clearly signified that nothing could be reasonably cited from the Sacred Scriptures, from Tradition, or from the authority of the Fathers, which would in any way be opposed to so great a prerogative of the Blessed Virgin.”

IOW, there is nothing written in Scripture, the Tradition, teachings of the Church Fathers, bishops etc that contradict the historical (up to that time) belief in and veneration of Mary’s Immaculate Conception.

In the same document he also writes "Hence the words of one of our predecessors, Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: “Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul’s infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception.”

“…in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer…preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

It is this declaration of the church in which my first comment was referring.

God had Mary in mind in Genesis when he curses the serpent, when the angel declared her “full of grace” in the New Testament, and in the book of Revelation when referring to the woman clothed with the sun. As the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, he is Lord over it all and is not limited by time as we are.

 

[MT1926]

I stand on the Word of God for everything concerning this issue.

As do I, we just don’t agree on how that Word is interpeted

So, what does the Bible say about whom we should pray to?

That depends on what your definition of to pray is.

God wants us to come to Him alone as a loving Father with our requests .

You might need to show me some verses that say pray to God ALONE with our requests. Cause I could have sworn the Bible wants us to ask one another to pray for us, so wouldn’t that be giving your request to someone else to take to God? Which would mean you didn’t pray to God alone?

Only God is omniscient and only He has the power to hear and answer our prayers, forgive our sins, protect us and heal us.

Amen. Totally agree. We are asking for the intercession of the Saints. If our prayer happens to be answered through the intercession of that Saint we freely admit that the Saint did not answer our prayer on their own power, they Answered it because it was God’s will for them to do so.

Nowhere in scripture is a green light given to pray to those who have died, whether or not their eternal destination is in heaven or hell.

Totally agree, but the Saints aren’t dead. We are all members of the Body of Christ. Death does not separate us from the Body of Christ and no one member of the Body can tell another member I have no need of you. If you are telling your wife (who has passed on) that you no longer need her to pray for you (since she is dead), then you just told a member of Christs Body you have no need of them.

2 Chronicles 7:14

Great verse. Amen

1 John 5: 14 & 15

Another great verse Amen.

Philippians 5: 6 & 7

Three great verses. Thanks for sharing. However, none of them say to pray to God ALONE.

God Bless

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Since you probably also believe in the Trinity, how does it feel to hold a doctrinal view not clearly prescribed in scripture?

I could put several verses of scripture together that do support the doctrine of the Trinity. However that would be going off topic here and maybe one day there will be opportunity in another thread. Cheers

 

[fredystairs]

“ Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” Philippians 5: 6 & 7

My Bible stops at Philippians Chapter 4. Could you mean another book perhaps?

Blessings

 

[fredystairs]

Press on the three little dots and then press on the garbage can.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Where is the green light to ask people here on earth to pray for you? By that line of thinking, we shouldn’t ask others to pray for us because it isn’t green lighted in scripture.

“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. _For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus_, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ[a] and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” 1 Timothy 2: 1 - 7

“Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.” James 5:16

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

Press on the three little dots and then press on the garbage can.

Thank you, kindly!

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Since you probably also believe in the Trinity, how does it feel to hold a doctrinal view not clearly prescribed in scripture?

I could put several verses of scripture together that do support the doctrine of the Trinity. However that would be going off topic here and maybe one day there will be opportunity in another thread. Cheers

I’m sure you can put together several verses that describe or identify certain aspects of the Trinity present in scripture that we retroactively identify as Trinitarian after Nicaea. I’ve read all of them; some more than once!

But you cannot provide scriptural evidence for the inclusion of the Holy Spirit as a discrete part of the Godhead. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals are happy to challenge any scripture that you (we) would like to offer to that end.

And this isn’t off topic at all. You’re requiring that a Catholic submit to a scriptural standard for all of their doctrine and I’m merely point out (quite correctly) that your beliefs fail to meet the very same standard.

…and to be sure, this phenomenon isn’t limited to the Trinity. That’s just the first and easiest example. I can list others if you like.

 

[Contender4TheFaith]

I don’t deny that Mary was a special person who was used by God in a most special way. However, she did not carry GOD (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in her womb. She carried the human form of the Son of God in her womb. There is a distinction, though Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man when He came in bodily form to Earth. It is a mystery that is hard to fully comprehend in human terms.

I believe that because Mary is not God, praying to her takes away what should be God’s. For instance, how much of the rosary is devoted to Mary in relation to God? Should that time in prayer not be devoted to God - the One Almighty God who has the power to answer those prayers, unlike Mary or any saints who reside with Him in heaven?

 

[Fauken]

However, she did not carry GOD (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in her womb. She carried the human form of the Son of God in her womb. There is a distinction, though Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man when He came in bodily form to Earth. It is a mystery that is hard to fully comprehend in human terms.

We do not claim that she carried God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. But if Jesus is fully God, and God is one God and three persons, then indeed we may say that she carried God with the understanding that she carried one person of the Trinity, but still fully God.

I believe that because Mary is not God, praying to her takes away what should be God’s. For instance, how much of the rosary is devoted to Mary in relation to God? Should that time in prayer not be devoted to God - the One Almighty God who has the power to answer those prayers, unlike Mary or any saints who reside with Him in heaven?

One, have you ever prayed the rosary? I would care to bet not. There are four sets of mysteries of the rosary: joyful, sorrowful, luminous, and glorious. The mysteries are:

Joyful:

1. The Annunciation of Gabriel to the Virgin Mary (Luke 1:26-38)
2. The Visitation of Virgin Mary to Elizabeth (Luke 1:39-56)
3. The Birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1-21)
4. The Presentation of Our Lord in the Temple at Jerusalem (Luke 2:22-38)
5. The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple at Jerusalem (Luke 2:41-52)

Sorrowful:

1. The Agony of Our Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:36-56)
2. Our Lord is Scourged at the Pillar (Matthew 27:26)
3. Our Lord is Crowned with Thorns (Matthew 27:27-31)
4. Our Lord Carries the Cross to Calvary (Matthew 27:32)
5. The Crucifixion of Our Lord (Matthew 27:33-56)

Glorious:

1. The Resurrection of Our Lord (John 20:1-29)
2. The Ascension of Our Lord into Heaven (Luke 24:36-53)
3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit on the Virgin Mary and the Apostles at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-41)
4. The Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven (Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII 1950)
5. The Coronation of Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth (Revelation 12:1)

Luminous:

1. The Baptism of Our Lord in the Jordan (Matthew 3:13-16)
2. The Wedding Feast at Cana (John 2:1-11)
3. The Proclamation of the Kingdom of Heaven (Mark 1:14-15)
4. The Transfiguration of Our Lord (Matthew 17:1-8)
5. The Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper (Matthew 26)

They, like the life of Mary, entirely revolve around Jesus. They do not detract from His glory – they magnify it. We mediate on the life of Jesus through her eyes. The Lord’s Prayer was given to us by Jesus. The Hail Mary is Biblical. To claim it takes away from Jesus is not true.

 

[RedFan]

The Hail Mary is Biblical

Well, the first half of it is.

 

[Fauken]

It all is. How could the mother of Christ not be holy? How could she not be the mother of God? And how could she not pray for us?

EDIT: Whoops! Major typing error!

 

[RedFan]

I don’t claim that she isn’t holy, or that she isn’t the mother of God, or that she can’t pray for us, or that Kim Jung Un has sideburns – but those things are not in the bible.