What do you think of a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in the classroom?

[4Horsemen]

A 9-year-old girl with cerebral palsy named Katie Jones died May 23rd. Her case is unique in that she attended public school with a DNR sign on her wheelchair. It seems her health had deteriorated since February when her neurological system began to decline and her breathing became increasingly difficult, according to her mother.

In December of 2007, the Special Education District of Lake County issued orders that the new protocol would be followed, in that the school would go along with the DNR order and not perform CPR or other procedures such as inserting a breathing tube or use of a defibrillator in an emergency.

This protocol only had to be used once for Katie in Nov. 2007 when she stopped breathing during a class. School nurses followed the order, and she was not intubated. She recovered. According to the Chicago Tribune article (5/28), her parents “said that knowing school officials would follow their wishes regarding their daughter made it easier to send Katie to school.”

A link was given for the 2007 article: www.chicagotribune.com/DNR

My concern is how the students in class would feel seeing Katie dying right before their eyes. (Maybe she’d be wheeled out, but the whole idea is frightening. Previously, school districts’ policy was to do everything possible to resuscitate a child. Also, the legal ramifications could be phenomenal, regardless of a DNR order.

What do you think?

 

[gardenswithkids]

A 9-year-old girl with cerebral palsy named Katie Jones died May 23rd. Her case is unique in that she attended public school with a DNR sign on her wheelchair. It seems her health had deteriorated since February when her neurological system began to decline and her breathing became increasingly difficult, according to her mother.

In December of 2007, the Special Education District of Lake County issued orders that the new protocol would be followed, in that the school would go along with the DNR order and not perform CPR or other procedures such as inserting a breathing tube or use of a defibrillator in an emergency.

This protocol only had to be used once for Katie in Nov. 2007 when she stopped breathing during a class. School nurses followed the order, and she was not intubated. She recovered. According to the Chicago Tribune article (5/28), her parents “said that knowing school officials would follow their wishes regarding their daughter made it easier to send Katie to school.”

A link was given for the 2007 article: www.chicagotribune.com/DNR

My concern is how the students in class would feel seeing Katie dying right before their eyes. (Maybe she’d be wheeled out, but the whole idea is frightening. Previously, school districts’ policy was to do everything possible to resuscitate a child. Also, the legal ramifications could be phenomenal, regardless of a DNR order.

What do you think?

I’m a little uncomfortable with it–especially given this child’s age when the DNR order was given. (They wrote these orders when she was in second grade.) The article you posted did a nice job of pointing out the complexities of such situations. If any child is that sick, plus prone to infection and so close to death that the family and doctors think DNR order appropriate, I seriously question if school is right place for her. As the article mentions, DNR orders are more commonly found in hospitals and nursing homes, not schools.

 

[Jea9]

My concern is how the students in class would feel seeing Katie dying right before their eyes. (Maybe she’d be wheeled out, but the whole idea is frightening. Previously, school districts’ policy was to do everything possible to resuscitate a child. Also, the legal ramifications could be phenomenal, regardless of a DNR order.

What do you think?

Bolding is mine. Actually, the legal ramifications would be phenomenal if they DID resuscitate her when she had a DNR. Now, if it was just some person off of the street who performed CPR they’d be safe under the ‘Good Samaritan’ rules. However, if a provider (school, health care) is aware and has on file a DNR and they attempt CPR anyway, that would be BAD!

I’m not sure how I feel about DNRs at all. I DO think they at times fall under extraordinary measures. I would imagine in this case she would be removed from the room. I would also hope that parents would discuss this and the possibility with their children! It is definitely a sad situation.

 

[AdriannaJean]

I don’t see why the little girl was in school anyways. As a poster above said, DNRs are found in hospitals, not on playgrounds. I know it might be nice for this little girl to spend her last few months as a “normal” kid, but what if all the other kids have to watch her die? What about the teacher who signed up to teach in order to help kids, but is forced to wheel the girl out of the classroom and idly watch her die? I don’t think having her in school is worth all that.

 

[Jesus_123]

. . . . . .
*May God’s Comforting Holy Presence and Healing Grace
touch all in contact with this tragic situation . . . *

Personally . . . I feel . . . both . . . the parents and the school were very much at fault in this situation . . . The school environment is . . . supposed . . . to be . . . for all the children . . . a relatively safe place . . . Death is a . . . **very emotionally traumatic thing **. . . with which to come face to face . . . Many adults cannot . . . *and don’t *. . . handle coming face to face with death well . . . uch: . . . and the possibility of deliberately placing a gravely ill child . . . and other children in the school . . . in a situation where they might face such a dire trauma . . . to me . . . is irresponsible on the part of both the parents and the school . . . If the possibility of death was so profoundly imminent that a DNR sign had to be placed on the precious child’s wheelchair . . . then both the parents and the school needed to face the fact that this child’s life was in imminent danger of ending . . . and they needed to respect this reality . . . and see to it that the child was home . . . with responsible loved ones taking care of her medical and educational needs *(with the school’s cooperation) * . . . and able to make responsible medical decisions for her . . . and not with relative strangers at such a critical time . . .death is a profoundly personal and private matter and should be handled in a controled . . . loving . . . environment . . . hopefully with medical personnel at hand if possible . . . and death is very much an . . . adult responsibility . . . circumstance . . . and all the adults involved needed to keep it in that arena . . . and care for and protect all the children involved . . .

We had a situation like this crop up in the work place . . . the ill individual had received a prognosis that death was coming relatively soon . . . and she kept going in and out of the hospital . . . and dodging in and out of the office in between emergency visits and stays at the hospital . . . and we became . . . very concerned . . . as to what our responsibilty both as employers . . . and personally for each of us . . . was in the situation . . . morally, medically and legally . . .:stretcher: . . . A recommendation was formulated and submitted to the president of the company that the individual be . . . required . . . to present an authorization from a licensed medical doctor . . . that they were physically well enough to work without harm to themselves and well enough as not to deliberately place others in the work place in a position where . . . ***extraordinary medical decisions ***. . . ***or actions ***. . . might need to be made on the part of the non-medical personnel in her workplace . . .:ehh: . . . and a deteriorated heath condition where death could very well be imminent . . . ***certainly qualifies as an extraordinary medical situation ***. . . I know large corporations here in our area that have policies similar to this one that our president accepted and put into place for our firm . . .

I would be very interested as to exactly what . . . *if any *. . . laws . . . are in place regarding such a situation . . . in that state . . . I would hope the school . . . at least . . . obtained excellent legal counsel and obtained an opinion re the law in their state regarding such an dangerous activity . . .

. . . . . .Hail Mary . . . full of Grace . . . the Lord is with thee . . . blessed art thou among women . . . and blessed is the Fruit of thy Womb . . . Jesus . . . Holy Mary . . . Mother of God . . . pray for us sinners . . . now . . . and at the hour of our death . . . Amen . . .

. . . all for Jesus+​

 

[paperwight]

Just interested, Jesus_123. Does your computer have a glitch, or is that punctuation intended?

It’s a bit unusual.

 

[4Horsemen]

I’m a little uncomfortable with it–especially given this child’s age when the DNR order was given. (They wrote these orders when she was in second grade.) The article you posted did a nice job of pointing out the complexities of such situations. If any child is that sick, plus prone to infection and so close to death that the family and doctors think DNR order appropriate, I seriously question if school is right place for her. As the article mentions, DNR orders are more commonly found in hospitals and nursing homes, not schools.

I agree that Katie should not have been in school with the severity of her health issues. I would think that it must have been somewhat of a distraction, to say the least, especially when she had an episode in the classroom in November of 2007. It adds a burden to the teacher as well. What if Katie happened to have an experience in which she stopped breathing and the nurse didn’t get to her on time to clear her throat (no tubes allowed but clearing was o.k.), and she actually died in the classroom? Children with this situation need to have their loved ones close by. As it is, Katie did die at home in bed, thanks be to God.

 

[4Horsemen]

Personally . . . I feel . . . both . . . the parents and the school were very much at fault in this situation . . . The school environment is . . . supposed . . . to be . . . for all the children . . . a relatively safe place . . . Death is a . . . **very emotionally traumatic thing **. . . with which to come face to face . . . Many adults cannot . . . *and don’t *. . . handle coming face to face with death well . . . uch: . . . and the possibility of deliberately placing a gravely ill child . . . and other children in the school . . . in a situation where they might face such a dire trauma . . . to me . . . is irresponsible on the part of both the parents and the school . . . If the possibility of death was so profoundly imminent that a DNR sign had to be placed on the precious child’s wheelchair . . . then both the parents and the school needed to face the fact that this child’s life was in imminent danger of ending . . . and they needed to respect this reality . . . and see to it that the child was home . . . with responsible loved ones taking care of her medical and educational needs *(with the school’s cooperation) * . . . and able to make responsible medical decisions for her . . . and not with relative strangers at such a critical time . . .death is a profoundly personal and private matter and should be handled in a controled . . . loving . . . environment . . . hopefully with medical personnel at hand if possible . . . and death is very much an . . . adult responsibility . . . circumstance . . . and all the adults involved needed to keep it in that arena . . . and care for and protect all the children involved . . .

We had a situation like this crop up in the work place . . . the ill individual had received a prognosis that death was coming relatively soon . . . and she kept going in and out of the hospital . . . and dodging in and out of the office in between emergency visits and stays at the hospital . . . and we became . . . very concerned . . . as to what our responsibilty both as employers . . . and personally for each of us . . . was in the situation . . . morally, medically and legally . . .:stretcher: . . . A recommendation was formulated and submitted to the president of the company that the individual be . . . required . . . to present an authorization from a licensed medical doctor . . . that they were physically well enough to work without harm to themselves and well enough as not to deliberately place others in the work place in a position where . . . ***extraordinary medical decisions ***. . . ***or actions ***. . . might need to be made on the part of the non-medical personnel in her workplace . . .:ehh: . . . and a deteriorated heath condition where death could very well be imminent . . . ***certainly qualifies as an extraordinary medical situation ***. . . I know large corporations here in our area that have policies similar to this one that our president accepted and put into place for our firm . . .

I would be very interested as to exactly what . . . *if any *. . . laws . . . are in place regarding such a situation . . . in that state . . . I would hope the school . . . at least . . . obtained excellent legal counsel and obtained an opinion re the law in their state regarding such an dangerous activity . . .

. . . all for Jesus+​

You expressed so well the difficulties to be faced, especially in the classroom, when a child is in such a serious state of being that a DNR is posted on her wheelchair for ALL the other children to see, and, quite naturally, question the meaning of this before they have an understanding of basic moral principles. They might wonder what the words “Do Not Resuscitate” mean? Will it happen to them? Are the grownups just going to let her die? Why?

The experience you and your co-workers had in the workplace with a similar situation is defying enough. Thank you for sharing this. It’s difficult enough for people at work to deal with but even more so in the classroom for little children to comprehend.

God bless!
4Horsemen

 

[Jesus_123]

+:coffeeread: . . . … when a child is in such a serious state of being that a DNR is posted on her wheelchair for ALL the other children to see,**** quite naturally, question the meaning of this before they have an understanding of basic moral principles****. They might wonder what the words “Do Not Resuscitate” mean? Will it happen to them? Are the grownups just going to let her die? Why?

The experience you and your co-workers had in the workplace with a similar situation is defying enough. Thank you for sharing this. It’s difficult enough for people at work to deal with but even more so in the classroom for little children to comprehend.

God bless!

4Horseman . . . you really hit the nail on the head of this in relation to children . . . I trained in college to become a teacher in an accelerated elementary education program . . . and in the very first year we studied . . . in depth and detail . . . *****the many and varied growth and development stages of children *****. . . and we had our first quarter of . . . required . . . student teaching . . . **I am now revisiting this with my little four year old granddaughter . . . **she is ready for some teaching/learning experiences and loves learning appropriate for her age . . . . . . and she is clearly not ready for others . . . :dts:. . . For example: long division . . . and quantum physics . . . are definitely . . . **waaaaay out yonder there . . . in the intellectual learning and understanding future for children . . . even as death and the spiritual moral response in handling such a mature dimension of life ** . . . is-and-should-be kept . . . if at all possible . . . waaaaay out yonder there . . . in the learning through life experience and understanding future for children . . . until they have matured into morally responsible adults . . . with well trained and well formed consciences . . . which training is acquired . . . step by step . . . stage by stage . . . until their judgement ability and emotional maturity are both formed to be able to handle life’s greater tragedies and responsibilities . . . I keep remembering my middle son’s shock when he entered Kindergarten . . . and discovered children . . . deliberately . . . being mean to one another . . . he was really traumatized . . . no one at home or at church in his life behaved that way . . . it took him a long time to get over the shock and handle the discovery of the . . . “dark side” . . . of human nature . . . contrary to the opinion of some . . . children are . . . very . . . breakable . . . :crutches:

​

. . . thank You Jesus+​

​

Jea9
+:coffeeread: *… I’m not sure how I feel about DNRs at all. … *

**I’m with you there . . . Jea9 . . . this is another dimension of this situation which is fraught with . . . spiritual . . . moral . . . and ethical . . . pitfalls . . . **very wise comment . . . and if . . . as a teacher . . . I wasn’t allowed to prayerfully follow my conscience in a situation like this . . . I’d have to resign . . . effective immediately . . . and trust God to open a new door of employment . . .

***Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.
***Proverbs 3:6
:bible1:

. . . all for Jesus, Mary and Joseph+
. . . God bless the children+​

 

[Jesus_123]

Just interested, Jesus_123. Does your computer have a glitch, or is that punctuation intended?

It’s a bit unusual.

I’m a musician . . . *among other things *. . . came from a tremendously musical family . . . both sides . . . music just saturated our lives . . . we lived, breathed, ate and slept music . . .***music . . . to me . . . is truly the language of the soul ***. . . I just naturally prayerfully approach words as if they were musical notes . . . needing understanding . . . phrasing . . . direction . . . flow . . . emphasis . . . arranging . . . listening for the "soul" of the piece . . . and trying to capture same . . . I guess I’m a bit like St. Ambrose . . . as he is written about in the section of St. Augustine’s Confessions which bears on the history of reading . . .

:coffeeread:
“When Ambrose read, his eyes scanned the page
and his heart sought out the meaning …”

I often “miss the mark” . . . but it’s fun trying . . .

*God bless . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . God bless the children+
:harp:​

 

[4Horsemen]

4Horseman . . . you really hit the nail on the head of this in relation to children . . . I trained in college to become a teacher in an accelerated elementary education program . . . and in the very first year we studied . . . in depth and detail . . . *****the many and varied growth and development stages of children *****. . . and we had our first quarter of . . . required . . . student teaching . . . I am now revisiting this with my little four year old granddaughter . . . she is ready for some teaching/learning experiences and loves learning appropriate for her age . . . . . . and she is clearly not ready for others . . . :dts:. . . For example: long division . . . and quantum physics . . . are definitely . . . **waaaaay out yonder there . . . in the intellectual learning and understanding future for children . . . even as death and the spiritual moral response in handling such a mature dimension of life ** . . . is-and-should-be kept . . . if at all possible . . . waaaaay out yonder there . . . in the learning through life experience and understanding future for children . . . until they have matured into morally responsible adults . . . with well trained and well formed consciences . . . which training is acquired . . . step by step . . . stage by stage . . . until their judgement ability and emotional maturity are both formed to be able to handle life’s greater tragedies and responsibilities . . . I keep remembering my middle son’s shock when he entered Kindergarten . . . and discovered children . . . deliberately . . . being mean to one another . . . he was really traumatized . . . no one at home or at church in his life behaved that way . . . it took him a long time to get over the shock and handle the discovery of the . . . “dark side” . . . of human nature . . . contrary to the opinion of some . . . children are . . . very . . . breakable . . . :crutches:

​

. . . thank You Jesus​

+​

**I’m with you there . . . Jea9 . . . this is another dimension of this situation which is fraught with . . . spiritual . . . moral . . . and ethical . . . pitfalls . . . **very wise comment . . . and if . . . as a teacher . . . I wasn’t allowed to prayerfully follow my conscience in a situation like this . . . I’d have to resign . . . effective immediately . . . and trust God to open a new door of employment . . .

***Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.
***Proverbs 3:6
:bible1:

. . . all for Jesus, Mary and Joseph+
. . . God bless the children+​

You certainly brought up some important points.
Another concern I have is for the handicapped children who have these signs hanging from their wheelchairs. How much do they understand? Have their parents explained, adequately, what the sign means? Have they prepared their child for the inevitable? Little Katie was unable to walk, talk, and feed herself. The article didn’t say she couldn’t think though. Having a DNR sign like that hanging conspicuously from the wheelchair doesn’t seem to be the best way to deal with the issue considering the fragility of a young child’s understanding and emotions. I, too, used to teach (primary level) until my own family came into being. So I have a heart for children, especially the most vulnerable. I just don’t think it’s wise to have such a sign to label a child.

God bless!
4Horsemen
P.S. I like all your little icons.

 

[Jesus_123]

You certainly brought up some important points. Another concern I have is for the handicapped children who have these signs hanging from their wheelchairs. How much do they understand? Have their parents explained, adequately, what the sign means? Have they prepared their child for the inevitable? Little Katie was unable to walk, talk, and feed herself. The article didn’t say she couldn’t think though. Having a DNR sign like that hanging conspicuously from the wheelchair doesn’t seem to be the best way to deal with the issue considering the fragility of a young child’s understanding and emotions. I, too, used to teach (primary level) until my own family came into being. So I have a heart for children, especially the most vulnerable. I just don’t think it’s wise to have such a sign to label a child.

God bless!
4Horsemen

Amen to all the above . . . ! . . . genuine love . . . always bears responsibility for the beloved . . . **loving . . . honoring . . . and respecting children ** . . :yyeess: . . . :curtsey: . . . in their innocence . . .**and their right to the gift of life **. . . whatever their state of being . . . should be the primary concern . . .

"And the King shall answer and say unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it
unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me."
Isaiah 25:40
:bible1:

 

[gardenswithkids]

…I’m not sure how I feel about DNRs at all…

I don’t have a problem with DNRs if a person of sound mind makes the decision for himself/herself. I do have some problem when other people decide DNR for another person. I recognize that parents have authority to make health care decisions for their children, but even then there the state sets some limits when parents withhold treatment. This was a young child who, despite numerous medical problems, the parents apparently felt was healthy enough to attend school.

I certainly would not want to be in the parents’ shoes. I imagine this was a very difficult situation and decision. In reading the article, it sounded like they were also uncomfortable sending her to school until they knew the school would honor their DNR request, and it took a while before the school would agreed to it.

As I think about it more, I’m uncomfortable with DNR orders for a child at all–unless perhaps the child is in a hospital with a critical illness and in a condition that is unlikely to improve. This child had DNR orders for over a year, (possible much longer) prior to her death. Several people thought she was well enough to go to school. Parent’s can’t make these decisions alone–it also takes a doctor to write a DNR orders, and in this case the school went along with it too.

 

[allhers]

Well I read the whole article and got this from it.

The DNR order goes everywhere with Katie, including her 2nd-grade classroom at Laremont School in Gages Lake. The school is part of the Special Education District of Lake County…

Beth Jones will be called first, then paramedics, who will be on standby at the school in
case Katie’s mother decides that she wants them to intervene. Meanwhile, Katie will be moved to a nurse’s office, shielding her from other students.

School nurses will be allowed to use suction to ease Katie’s breathing and give her oxygen with a mask. The child can be positioned in a way that makes it easier to breathe… (It also said that one of the teachers picked her up, remember? I am sure that
helped her breathing, just being adjusted to a different postion at the time.)

Apparently some think that every child with special needs should be
somewhere other than where they are. Years ago some experts thought that those with CP should all be in institutions and that they couldn’t learn, grow up or walk or talk .

I think its sad that any child who wants to go to School, as the article pointed out about Katie, should be deprived of going because some people think that her death might be an inconvience to others. Do you think she should have just stayed home and waited to die?

The article shows how they were going to go out of their way to prevent it from happening
in front of the other children, what more do you want? CP effects everyone who has it differently and comes in different levels and stages. The article also stated that two other children had the same orders on their wheelchairs but doesn’t say why. Perhaps they had other life-threatening issues, but still they wanted to be like other children and go to School and learn and be happy.

I think this part is the way to be…

“We’re not just standing by doing nothing,” said Susan Hodgkinson, nursing coordinator for the Special Education District of Lake County. “We’re providing supportive measures. But most importantly, we are there loving her.”

(my bold and underline.)

 

[Lujack]

I have to agree with allhers. The dying girl has a right to go to school; sure, it might be a tough issue for the kids in her class, but at the end of the day, they have a good chance of getting up the next morning. Katie deserves to enjoy the time she has.

 

[Jesus_123]

As I think about it more, I’m uncomfortable with DNR orders for a child at all–unless perhaps the child is in a hospital with a critical illness and in a condition that is unlikely to improve. **This child had DNR orders for over a year, (possible much longer) prior to her death. Several people thought she was well enough to go to school. **Parent’s can’t make these decisions alone–it also takes a doctor to write a DNR orders, and in this case the school went along with it too.

The issue we have been discussing on this thread . . . is not whether a child with cerebral palsy should be allowed to go to school . . . *my goal in college was to become a teacher of special needs children . . . * and I have worked at the university here in town in their Center for Disabilities . . . which has accomplished phenomenal work in the care and teaching of children with disabilities . . . of all kinds . . . rather . . . the subject is . . . DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) orders in the classroom . . .

We have been discussing this serious issue at some length . . . in regard to the specific article that was referenced by 4Horseman . . . and I echo the concern expressed by Gardenswithkids above . . .

**First - the issue at hand is the supposed "imminent" death of a child . . . which might . . . perhaps . . . necessitate a DNR Order . . .
**
That this child had had a DNR order for a year or more definitely waves a “red flag” as to whether . . . death was imminent . . . and immediately brings to mind the Ten Commandments which are the basis for the formation of both well formed Christian and Jewish consciences . . .

Second - The Fifth Commandment - “Thou shalt not kill.” * Deuteronomy 5:17 *:bible1:

[Section 2261] Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: “Do not slay the innocent and the righteous.” The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere. - Catechism of the Catholic Church

Not wishing to . . . “reinvent the wheel” . . . in this matter . . . I did a little research on the web and found this wonderful sentence on one of the Catholic medical ethics websites . . .

“There is a
**substantive moral difference **
between . . .
**foregoing treatment **
(thereby allowing one to die naturally
from an underlying pathology)
and an action which
**causes death **
of-itself-or-by-intention
in order that suffering may in this way be eliminated.”

Concern for the dignity of each person . . . especially the most vulnerable members of society . . . is the foundation of Catholic/Christian opposition to the unethical and immoral slipping over into the . . . **dark arena **. . . of the legalization of killing our fellow men-women-children-babies . . . which goes by various deceptive names . . . mercy killing/euthanasia/assisted-suicide/abortion . . . to name but a few . . .

My concern in this individual type of circumstance is whether the decision on the part of . . . both . . . the parents and the doctor . . . in their taking the action to implement a DNR . . . had moved into the arena of taking . . . an action which causes death of-itself-or-by-intention in order that suffering may in this way be eliminated . . . rather than the situation being an "imminent death" circumstance . . . It is a given that this child was in a very difficult life circumstance . . . but does that automatically justify not helping her live out her life by helping her to stay alive if her normal daily life condition was not primarily life threatening . . . ? . . . Just because the doctor in the case signed a DNR order doesn’t necessarily make the decision a moral one . . . there are licensed physicians killing preborn babies by the millions all over the world . . . and then the school . . . a clearly non-medical environment . . . was looped into what very possibly could be a profoundly immoral activity . . . and a clear violation of the Fifth Commandment . . . via an act/sin of ommission . . .

Also . . . it took that mother ten minutes or-so to get to the school and make the “definitive” decision as the legally authorized representative to do so . . . it is my understanding that resuscitation after ten minutes is not normally medically recommended . . . if the child had died at the school . . .* wow . . . what a disordered mess . . . *

Food for thought . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
​

 

[Jesus_123]

Cardinal Keeler Mourns Tragic Death of Terri Schiavo

WASHINGTON (March 31, 2005)— Cardinal William H. Keeler, chairman of the U.S. Bishops’ Committee for Pro-Life Activities, made the following statement today on the death of Terri Schiavo.

We mourn the tragic death of Terri Schindler Schiavo, who died today from dehydration and starvation.

Terri Schiavo’s plight brought to light a critical question: To be a society that is truly human, how should we care for those most helpless patients who cannot speak for themselves?

A year ago Pope John Paul II answered this question, when he reaffirmed that “the administration of food and water, even when provided by artificial means,” should be considered “morally obligatory” as long as it provides nourishment and alleviates suffering for such patients.

“Any man’s death diminishes me,” said the poet John Donne, “because I am involved in mankind.” We are all diminished by this woman’s death, a death that speaks to the moral confusion we face today. Ours is a culture in which human life is increasingly devalued and violated, especially where that life is most weak and fragile.

We pray this human tragedy will lead our nation to a greater commitment to protect helpless patients and all the weakest among us. “Yes, every man is his ‘brother’s keeper,’” as the Holy Father teaches “because God entrusts us to one another” (The Gospel of Life, 19).

May the soul of Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo rest in the peace and mercy of God. And may God have mercy on our society which failed to protect this innocent human life.

---

For media inquiries, e-mail us at commdept@usccb.org
Department of Communications | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3000 © USCCB. All rights reserved.

 

[4Horsemen]

Well I read the whole article and got this from it.

The DNR order goes everywhere with Katie, including her 2nd-grade classroom at Laremont School in Gages Lake. The school is part of the Special Education District of Lake County…

Beth Jones will be called first, then paramedics, who will be on standby at the school in
case Katie’s mother decides that she wants them to intervene. Meanwhile, Katie will be moved to a nurse’s office, shielding her from other students.

School nurses will be allowed to use suction to ease Katie’s breathing and give her oxygen with a mask. The child can be positioned in a way that makes it easier to breathe… (It also said that one of the teachers picked her up, remember? I am sure that
helped her breathing, just being adjusted to a different postion at the time.)

Apparently some think that every child with special needs should be
somewhere other than where they are. Years ago some experts thought that those with CP should all be in institutions and that they couldn’t learn, grow up or walk or talk .

I think its sad that any child who wants to go to School, as the article pointed out about Katie, should be deprived of going because some people think that her death might be an inconvience to others. Do you think she should have just stayed home and waited to die?

The article shows how they were going to go out of their way to prevent it from happening
in front of the other children, what more do you want? CP effects everyone who has it differently and comes in different levels and stages. The article also stated that two other children had the same orders on their wheelchairs but doesn’t say why. Perhaps they had other life-threatening issues, but still they wanted to be like other children and go to School and learn and be happy.

I think this part is the way to be…

“We’re not just standing by doing nothing,” said Susan Hodgkinson, nursing coordinator for the Special Education District of Lake County. “We’re providing supportive measures. But most importantly, we are there loving her.”

(my bold and underline.)

What about the teacher’s perspective? I think the law requires that special education children be absorbed into regular classroom situations, but it is unclear (from what I read: Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) that schools must include children with DNR orders–very few districts have DNR protocols as yet. The page I read mentioned evaluation by the school district. I don’t know if the teacher is included in the process, but I would hope so. A relative who is teaching at the fourth grade level is DEFINATELY not comfortable with special needs children in regular classroom settings instead of special ed classrooms, and I know she wouldn’t be comforable with a child in Katie’s situation. (She wasn’t asked her opinion). She’s already had some severely handicapped children in wheelchairs with breathing problems, tubes and devices that make noise. As Jesus_123 pointed out, we’re discussing the DNR protocol which is deeper in scope than accomodating special needs children.

Your statement that Katie could be “deprived” of going to school because others may consider her death an “inconvenience” is clearly not the issue. She may even have been in school for months before her condition became so critical. The article related that she enjoyed this outlet. But it is adults who must make big decisions–decisions that are best for Katie and the children in the classroom, and consideration of the teacher’s feelings and thoughts on whether or not learning is being impeded. It’s not because teachers and administrators don’t want to be inconvenienced. However, they are there to teach not to nurse. Besides, they don’t have the credentials. Sure, there is a nurse available, but it was pointed out that things could go wrong, and the child could possibly die off “schedule.”

 

[4Horsemen]

The issue we have been discussing on this thread . . . is not whether a child with cerebral palsy should be allowed to go to school . . . *my goal in college was to become a teacher of special needs children . . . * and I have worked at the university here in town in their Center for Disabilities . . . which has accomplished phenomenal work in the care and teaching of children with disabilities . . . of all kinds . . . rather . . . the subject is . . . DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) orders in the classroom . . .

We have been discussing this serious issue at some length . . . in regard to the specific article that was referenced by 4Horseman . . . and I echo the concern expressed by Gardenswithkids above . . .

First - the issue at hand is the supposed "imminent" death of a child . . . which might . . . perhaps . . . necessitate a DNR Order . . .

That this child had had a DNR order for a year or more definitely waves a “red flag” as to whether . . . death was imminent . . . and immediately brings to mind the Ten Commandments which are the basis for the formation of both well formed Christian and Jewish consciences . . .

Second - The Fifth Commandment - “Thou shalt not kill.” * Deuteronomy 5:17 *:bible1:

Not wishing to . . . “reinvent the wheel” . . . in this matter . . . I did a little research on the web and found this wonderful sentence on one of the Catholic medical ethics websites . . .

“There is a
**substantive moral difference **
between . . .
**foregoing treatment **
(thereby allowing one to die naturally
from an underlying pathology)
and an action which
**causes death **
of-itself-or-by-intention
in order that suffering may in this way be eliminated.”

Concern for the dignity of each person . . . especially the most vulnerable members of society . . . is the foundation of Catholic/Christian opposition to the unethical and immoral slipping over into the . . . **dark arena **. . . of the legalization of killing our fellow men-women-children-babies . . . which goes by various deceptive names . . . mercy killing/euthanasia/assisted-suicide/abortion . . . to name but a few . . .

My concern in this individual type of circumstance is whether the decision on the part of . . . both . . . the parents and the doctor . . . in their taking the action to implement a DNR . . . had moved into the arena of taking . . . **an action which causes death **of-itself-or-by-intention in order that suffering may in this way be eliminated . . . rather than the situation being an "imminent death" circumstance . . . It is a given that this child was in a very difficult life circumstance . . . but does that automatically justify not helping her live out her life by helping her to stay alive if her normal daily life condition was not primarily life threatening . . . ? . . . Just because the doctor in the case signed a DNR order doesn’t necessarily make the decision a moral one . . . there are licensed physicians killing preborn babies by the millions all over the world . . . and then the school . . . a clearly non-medical environment . . . was looped into what very possibly could be a profoundly immoral activity . . . and a clear violation of the Fifth Commandment . . . via an act/sin of ommission . . .

Also . . . it took that mother ten minutes or-so to get to the school and make the “definitive” decision as the legally authorized representative to do so . . . it is my understanding that resuscitation after ten minutes is not normally medically recommended . . . if the child had died at the school . . .* wow . . . what a disordered mess . . . *

Food for thought . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank you Holy Mother Church+
​

Your concerns are certainly valid. You brought up the morality of the situation which may possible involve a “sin of omission.” The dignity of each person must be respected at all times in all circumstances. Your next post dealt with the Terri Schiavo fiasco in which a hapless husband supposedly wanted to alleviate her suffering (mostly his own, I would say). Sometimes the line is very clear; other times it’s not so clear. Of course we don’t see the whole picture. From the article, it is apparent that Katie went through times of near-death as her breathing became increasingly difficult. The question revolves around imminence–whether death was truly imminent. Therefore, the DNR orders may be ethical IF Katie is experiencing undo suffering that is tantamount to dying. (A moral theologian/ethicist would be helpful here). But, AGAIN, the dying should not be happening in a classroom! Your concern for respect for life for all God’s vulnerable children is exactly what is needed, even in the Church–especially in the Church

For Life,
4Horsemen

 

[Newbie2]

I’m a little uncomfortable with it–especially given this child’s age when the DNR order was given. (They wrote these orders when she was in second grade.) The article you posted did a nice job of pointing out the complexities of such situations. If any child is that sick, plus prone to infection and so close to death that the family and doctors think DNR order appropriate, I seriously question if school is right place for her. As the article mentions, DNR orders are more commonly found in hospitals and nursing homes, not schools.

I have to agree.

I have to agree with allhers. The dying girl has a right to go to school; sure, it might be a tough issue for the kids in her class, but at the end of the day, they have a good chance of getting up the next morning. Katie deserves to enjoy the time she has.

Although she may have a “right” to go to school, she or her family has no right to impose what might be a horrific and permanently emotionally scarring event upon her classmates in school.

It’s not like she cannot enjoy her life playing with other kids when they are out of school.

She may have a right to go to school, but she has no right to ***die ***in school.

A reasonable compromise is that the DNR not apply during the time she is on school property or on school transportation (if she uses a bus, for instance).

I would think that the school district would be within good legal standing to not allow her to go to school with a DNR in effect. What would keep the school district from getting sued if the parents “changed their minds” if the girl goes critical and dies as a result of non-action on thte part of school district employees?

You might think they’d be protected, but stranger things have happened. And, what about the parents of the other kids suing the school district if their kid(s) were “emotionally scarred”, legitimately or not, by having to watch a classmate die without intervention?

A good lawyer, a sympathetic jury, and the school district forks over a blank check…

But aside from the legality of the situation, I think the parents are being selfish, not thinking of the other kids. Something like “my ill child deserves this right, and the heck with the other children who might have to watch her die in front of them”. That, and I wonder if they would just rather avoid th unpleasantry of having their child die in front of them, leaving that unpleasantry to someone else. Cynical view, perhaps, I know.