What do you think of "Catholic Elopement"?

[JackieMom]

I know all about T/F and Song of Songs, thank you. I didn’t say feeling can’t be involved.

You, however, said several times that you didn’t have control over “falling in love” and assigning it to God’s providence. That is incorrect. God would NOT call you to “fall in love” when you are still married to someone else. To say that He did is accusing Him of promoting adultery, which is what this is.

With charity, Oh Charlotte - this is correct. I have, in the past, rationalized poor choices by saying “But God wouldn’t have put me in this situation if He wasn’t okay with it.” The truth is, sometimes we are called to make the right choice in spite of overwhelming urges. Obviously you have free will and can do whtever you like. But please don’t suggest God led you to commit adultery. That is very insulting.

I realize you have been civily divorced for quite some time and probably feel very much that your marriage has been completely over for a while. The truth is, civil divorce or not, you are JUST as married in the eyes of God today as you were on your honeymoon. You have never been free to date, or have any kind of relationship with a man that would have been inappropriate while you were living with your husband.

 

[SlackerCatholic]

You say you are in two different states. How did you meet? How have you conducted a relationship with him? How much actual face to face time have you spent with this man?

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

I have, in the past, rationalized poor choices …sometimes we are called to make the right choice in spite of overwhelming urges. …But please don’t suggest God led you to commit adultery. That is very insulting.

I realize you have been civily divorced for quite some time…The truth is, civil divorce or not, you are …in the eyes of God today…

I don’t think you are reading my posts, which is fine, you don’t need to read them. But if you are going to comment on them, you should read them. And if you call my love for Robert an “urge”, you really have some other thing of your own on your mind.

Its clear you have not read my posts if you think I don’t think the Church must assume my marriage is valid until it is annulled.

It is a sickening insult to me that you say I suggest God would lead me to adultery, especially after what I have written.

If you had read my posts you would see have more than Gods loving private confirmation to me, but also that I have a very strict and pious priest who I confess to and consult with and who knows a whole lot more than you about sin because it is his God-given vocation and his education.

Your judgments are appalling. But I get it, I really do. I was married once, too, for nearly 20 years, and I had similar judgmental attitudes towards divorced persons. * I lived with my “for worse”, and I thought people who were divorced just didn’t try as hard as I *did. So with that attitude, you can imagine it was quite a cross to get the word “divorcee” stuck on me the rest of my life against my will. Now I am glad to have it as a reminder to me that I am capable of judging harshly about things I don’t understand, and that not everyone’s experience matches mine and if someone does something I would never do, they might have a reason I never had. There but for the grace of God go I.

Let this be a warning to others that people are quick to judge others and quick to find other people’s hearts and motives lacking, and that is why everyone should have a good and holy priest to confess to and consult with about matters of morality and certainly about their feelings if they have an questions on that.

I have been through some very difficult times that were most trying on my feelings, and I thank God for the Sacraments of the Church that got me through. The Church is not nearly so judgmental as people. And She is not all about strict rules as some imply. Those rules come from the God of Love, and His Love is all over His commands.

When I was reeling from betrayal of my ex and the lies he told the court and our community about me which I had to defend myself against at great expense, and then reeling from the prolonged threat of losing my child to these lies, I found when it was over that it was very hard to feel any charity and forgiveness to my husband at all. And in light of the love I know God has for us and wants us to have for others, I felt very bad. It was a very, very old and holy priest who helped me with my guilt-burden for not “feeling” charitable to my ex, (who was still terrorizing me, because I was down, and that’s what bullies do). I learned under this priest’s direction that God does not expect us to change our feelings, just our actions, and as we do what we must, feeling or not, we can trust God to work on the feelings, in His time.

This morning after typing on this thread early before work, on my way to work I was listening to Jim Pinto (Jim and Joy Pinto on EWTN radio, a lovely Catholic couple who teach about Catholic marriage) and Jim was talking about his wounding very young from his mother dying. He was about 5 I think. One of his very pious aunts who helped be a mother figure to him used to tell him, “Oh, boy, Jim, God has some *wonderful *wife and wonderful family for you someday, to make up for what you have lost here in your mother.” And now Jim does have a wonderful wife who he truly loves and also family.

That story made comforted me because I have this feeling that Robert is God’s way of making up to me the years the locust has eaten. In my most wretchedly sad moments of marriage, I always took my comfort in that Bible verse, and trusted in God for that. I had always thought it would be a miraculous healing of my marriage, so, having expected that miracle for so long it was hard to accept the reality of my divorce. Now after a long, long wait and a long trusting in God for that promise, it seems the answer is here.

But both “Robert” and I had really loveless marriages, which we were faithful to and served, served, served only to be badly burnt in the end and then we did not seek any consolation for ourselves but kept serving our children as single parents, doing what we understood God called us to. No social life, certainly no friends of the opposite sex. Its been a long and lonely adulthood for us both because we both were determined to do Gods will, stay married no matter how unhappy and make the best of it, and stay chaste and family-serving after. And I was okay to never know love the rest of my life if that is what God wanted of me, and Robert felt the same, too.

But it sure seems God had another plan. Yes, I can’t know 100% yet, just like a pregnant Mom can’t know she is going to deliver a live and healthy child. But a Mom has signs that things are going well, for example the word of her doctor, that she is not a fool to trust. And Robert and I have signs that things will go well for us, signs like the word of my priest who does not think we are a fool to trust. And I will expect God’s best for me especially since only He could have found someone so perfect for me. Not amazing in the world’s eyes - but we know God knows how perfectly matched we are. It is something that always amazes us. This must be is His work!

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

I have to wonder, Jackie, if you would be just as harsh on a married couple with young children, perhaps one was Catholic and the other divorced, and now that they understand God’s ways, they find they cannot be married in God’s eyes because one spouse was previously married and nothing was annulled.

Would you call their children bastards? Would you say they must live in separate residences even though they live now as brother and sister, since they are not really married, while they await the Church’s verdict?? Would you tell them they have no business dating, and that they are committing adultery and insulting God if they have loving feelings for each other?

Just wondering. Because this does happen.

 

[Sillara]

It is wrong, period, for someone who is married to behave as a single person, or worse, to behave as though married to another person.

It is wrong. The hypothetical couple with young children in your earlier example absolutely DID do wrong, and now they must pick up the pieces and try to avoid damaging their children as much as possible.

But, Oh Charlotte, what would you say to that couple if they petitioned for a declaration of nullity and it was denied? Would you say that, because they have loving feelings for each other, because they came together adulterously and conceived children in adultery, that they should ignore the fact that they are living in adultery?

Have you considered what would happen should your own declaration of nullity be denied? Or that of “Robert”?

 

[thewanderer]

Have you considered what would happen should your own declaration of nullity be denied? Or that of “Robert”?

I thought she already made that pretty clear earlier in the thread.

We know that all hopes and plans are contingent on the Church saying we are free to marry. It is unlikely that we won’t get that, but we both know that it would be separation for us if the Church said no**.** We have very solid ground for annulments so it is not imprudent to expect a positive outcome. However if a no is in God’s plans, we would turn to Him for the graces to accept it at that time, but we certainly are not expecting that reversal.
.

It is also not wrong for me to make plans for marrying Robert when we both 100% will do what the Church tells us to do, even in the very, very, slim chance we have to renounce each other forever because we cannot be annulled.

 

[JackieMom]

I have to wonder, Jackie, if you would be just as harsh on a married couple with young children, perhaps one was Catholic and the other divorced, and now that they understand God’s ways, they find they cannot be married in God’s eyes because one spouse was previously married and nothing was annulled.

Would you call their children bastards? Would you say they must live in separate residences even though they live now as brother and sister, since they are not really married, while they await the Church’s verdict?? Would you tell them they have no business dating, and that they are committing adultery and insulting God if they have loving feelings for each other?

Just wondering. Because this does happen.

You are confusing “judgmentalism” with “adherence to Church doctrine.” I am not judging you at all. I am simply pointing out the obvious. You have never been free to enter a romantic relationship. I did read your poats and Robert sounds like a lovely man. You seem to care for him passionately and you clearly believe that your meeting him was an act of divine intervention. I can tell you are a God-fearing woman.

But you are simply factually wrong about this. And of course, to answer your question, if a couple married illicitly and the formerly married spouse was denied a decree of nullity, and the couple wiahed to enter back into the life of the Chirch, they would have to raise their child as unmarried, platonic co-parents and not romantic partners because they simply would not actually be married. Of course, that would be a very upsetting situation! But it would not change the fact that no valid marriage took place.

I understand you had an unhappy marriage many years ago and are now filled with hope for the possibility that this is your chance to marry someone you love passionately and who feels the same for you. But yes, if you have been dating without a decree of nullity, you have been committing adultery and so has “Robert.” The fact that your priest has not informed you of this is unfortunate, but not too surprising. I had two good, well-respected priests tell me that there were “loopholes” for using birth control in serious situations!

Charlotte, I am sure you want to hear none of what I am saying. I’m sorry. But your romance with Robert was neither ordained by God nor has it ever been acceptable in the eyes of the Church. You must assume you are still married to your husband, even if you despise him and even if he was terrible to you. This might be one of those parts of our faith that seems “unfair” when we wish to act against it. I totally understand that - I do! But it is what it is.

Canon 1107 Even if a marriage has been entered into invalidly by reason of an impediment or defect of form, the consent given is presumed to persist until its withdrawal has been established.

For further confirmation that dating without a DoN is inappropriate…
catholic.com/quickquestions/without-an-annulment-is-it-ok-to-date-as-long-as-we-are-chaste

Best of luck to you. I hope everything works out.

 

[JackieMom]

I have to wonder, Jackie, if you would be just as harsh on a married couple with young children, perhaps one was Catholic and the other divorced, and now that they understand God’s ways, they find they cannot be married in God’s eyes because one spouse was previously married and nothing was annulled.

Would you call their children bastards? Would you say they must live in separate residences even though they live now as brother and sister, since they are not really married, while they await the Church’s verdict?? Would you tell them they have no business dating, and that they are committing adultery and insulting God if they have loving feelings for each other?

Just wondering. Because this does happen.

And I would never call a child a “bastard.” But indeed, the child would be born to unmarried parents, out of an adulterous situation. Of course, being unaware of Church doctrine does remove some culpability, but every effort to correct the situation would need to be made, including the discontinuation of any romantic relationship until a decree of nullity and proper marriage took place. The loving feelings make no difference here. I am sure many an adulterer has warm feelings for his or her coconspiritor in the adultery. It is sad when things like this happens.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

If you get the annulments I see no problem in getting married the way you want. A party is not necessary. I think small ceremonies are beautiful.

I hope things go smoothly.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

It is wrong, period, for someone who is married to behave as a single person, or worse, to behave as though married to another person.

I am sure your statement will be helpful to someone! Always god to state the rules.

It is wrong. The hypothetical couple with young children in your earlier example absolutely DID do wrong, and now they must pick up the pieces and try to avoid damaging their children as much as possible.

Please read the question if you want to answer it.

But, Oh Charlotte, what would you say to that couple if they petitioned for a declaration of nullity and it was denied? Would you say that, because they have loving feelings for each other, because they came together adulterously and conceived children in adultery, that they should ignore the fact that they are living in adultery?

Uh, no. I would not say that.

Have you considered what would happen should your own declaration of nullity be denied? Or that of “Robert”?

Obviously you have not read my posts, or you would not have asked that. Its always helpful to read the posts you are replying to before you reply.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

If you get the annulments I see no problem in getting married the way you want. A party is not necessary. I think small ceremonies are beautiful.

I hope things go smoothly.

Thanks, Contra Mundum! I appreciate the validation! I am really leaning this way, and feel its where God is pointing.

 

[PatriceA]

Thanks, Contra Mundum! I appreciate the validation! I am really leaning this way, and feel its where God is pointing.

That being said though, me personally, I wouldn’t be entering into the Sacrament of Matrimony without the proper preparation and direction from my priest. You can have a wedding ceremony be as small or as elaborate as you want, but I’m getting the impression you haven’t really talked to your own priest about the ceremony after reading your posts. You have said a few times that you are sure your priest would marry you, but until you’ve actually heard those words from his mouth, if it was me, I wouldn’t be doing any more “planning” until I was sure I am free to marry in the Catholic Church AND my priest will officiate at the ceremony.

I do think you might regret not involving the family more if and when you are free to marry. It might seem like too much hassle for you, but at least talk to the family members about your wishes. Give them the option to at least attend the ceremony, don’t assume its too much trouble for them if they’ve never told you that personally. You are taking the decision away from them and that can cause a lot of hurt feelings down the road. I would never want a family member to assume being in attendance at a family event is too much trouble for me and didn’t at least give me the option to try to be there. You don’t have to involve every single family member in your decisions, but only a few trusted ones AND especially any children involved.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

Without commenting on the annulment process, you are NOT under any obligation to throw a party for wedding guests. H

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

That being said though, me personally, I wouldn’t be entering into the Sacrament of Matrimony without the proper preparation and direction from my priest. You can have a wedding ceremony be as small or as elaborate as you want, but I’m getting the impression you haven’t really talked to your own priest about the ceremony after reading your posts. You have said a few times that you are sure your priest would marry you, but until you’ve actually heard those words from his mouth, if it was me, I wouldn’t be doing any more “planning” until I was sure I am free to marry in the Catholic Church AND my priest will officiate at the ceremony.

Yes, We will be taking all of my priests direction on this matter. I would in no way circumvent anything he directs or recommends, even if I did not like it because I trust him and trust God working through Him. Yes, I didn’t talk to him about the ceremony yet because it seems like a moot point right now. I DID talk to him about annulments, and all about Robert, and confessed any areas I thought my thoughts had been inappropriate.

And yes, I am not planning until the word comes on annulments. I am just thinking ahead because we have practical challenges, so we must be prudent, and I wanted to think through what woudl be the best direction to go.

I do think you might regret not involving the family more if and when you are free to marry. It might seem like too much hassle for you, but at least talk to the family members about your wishes. Give them the option to at least attend the ceremony, don’t assume its too much trouble for them if they’ve never told you that personally. You are taking the decision away from them and that can cause a lot of hurt feelings down the road. I would never want a family member to assume being in attendance at a family event is too much trouble for me and didn’t at least give me the option to try to be there. You don’t have to involve every single family member in your decisions, but only a few trusted ones AND especially any children involved.

Good points. I know what I want now and Robert wants the same, but if we both run that inclination briefly by our children to test the waters about how they feel about involvement and we learn our idea offends or hurts them in anyway, we will adjust accordingly. But no point in testing those waters till annulment word comes.

Without commenting on the annulment process, you are NOT under any obligation to throw a party for wedding guests. H

Thanks… hopefully it will be so unless family objects, then maybe perhaps the small Sacramental wedding with immediate family and have a VERY simple meal at home. Like Crockpot stew, salad and bread and a small special cake, then we leave for a honeymoon…

 

[SlackerCatholic]

You say you are in two different states. How did you meet? How have you conducted a relationship with him? How much actual face to face time have you spent with this man?

You never answered this.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

Thanks… hopefully it will be so unless family objects, then maybe perhaps the small Sacramental wedding with immediate family and have a VERY simple meal at home. Like Crockpot stew, salad and bread and a small special cake, then we leave for a honeymoon…

Family can object all they want. If you don’t want to throw a big reception, then don’t. If you don’t have the money for a reception, don’t have one. Family members seem to forget that the important part of the day is the MARRIAGE. Not the party.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

… Family members seem to forget that the important part of the day is the MARRIAGE. Not the party.

Yes, that is what reallymatters, and not too many in our circle realize that.a

Originally Posted by SlackerCatholic
You say you are in two different states. How did you meet? How have you conducted a relationship with him? How much actual face to face time have you spent with this man?

You never answered this.

Oh! Well, we started writing on a forum; he had a link to his website where he shared his faith (Catholic!) and commitment to celibacy after divorce, and I felt safe writing to him because he would not flirt with me. After a long lonely marraige I really enjoyed my male friend and I admired him, so different from my ex. The things I admire were not worldly things, but most of all his stalwart commitment to doing the right thing, no matter the cost, the kinds of things the world takes no notice of. Actually those sort of unseen things are the accomplishments I value most about myself, not the worldly ones, even though I do have some worldly ones.

We wrote a lot. I was like having a best friend but I had no intention of meeting. In fact I was afraid to. I thought it would be terrible if one of us liked the other and the other didn’t. I had fear of either scenario, and so preferred “just friends” by email. I sent him by snail a couple of pics of me and my son once, not so great, and saw his pic on website so I had an idea what he looked like. But I think I had PTSD after my marraige, divorce, custody battle, and just a lot of fear, even though I went to Daily Mass a lot and learned to depend on God, I was overwhelmed with practical challenges of single parenting. And then he got hit some big time-consuming challenges, and our correspondence dropped off. [at this point we had not written in almost three years. He did not know my Dad died and my Mom got Alzheimer’s and I was caring for her)].

Then I arranged a healing for a friend with super severe PTSD. In fear after all the prep we did for it she bailed at last minute, and I heard God call me, in an inner voice that did NOT come from me, to go in her place. I was surprised, and Jesus said to me, “I love you too. Don’t you want to be whole?” That was the first time I realized I really wasn’t whole, even though He had done much work in me and helped me through so much. So I arranged to go in her place, and, it happened to be in his state, and I thought it might be fun to meet my old friend. I was fitting a lot in that weekend, but a visit to his home meant two extra miles on my route, and I could spare an hour. I thought I’d never visit the state again, so I ought to. I wrote him and he never wrote back. Well! Then so much for him!

The healing made me whole and new. I never knew the true meaning of freedom until after Jesus healed and made whole all these parts of me. It is a new me to this day. The last day was a follow-up session, and then I went to a Latin Mass in a nearby town (I had planned this and map-quested this whole trip) because I needed to go to Sunday Mass and he, last I knew, went there weekly. But he wasn’t there! Must be avoiding me! Fine! I would avoid him!

But my map-quest took me by his house on the way home, and, I was so untroubled by a thing in the world after this healing, and thought, why not? I am never going to have the chance to meet my friend again, and we are just friends. It will be fun. So I pulled in and knocked on the door. He answered, and I just really liked him, and I was delighted at his surprise and confusion because he did not know who I was or why I was there! He had not got my email, as it had changed, then when I told him and he realized, the surprise was precious. I was in a hurry, it was getting dark, and we had a scant hour, in which time I met his daughter who lived there, and the two of us had a long talk and I realized I loved listening to him as much as I enjoyed his emails, it just seemed natural to talk, and I got to see stuff he had built on his house and I was impressed, and he also told me he was a “ruin”, particularly because of his daughter, and told me that, and between that and the fact that I saw codependency between him and his daughter in the first 5 minutes, the thought crossed my mind: “This is NOT for me” which is strange in itself because I wasn’t looking for anything for me.

But as I went to hurry off he asked me if I would pray the Angelus with him, as it was nearly 6 and he does this 3x a day and the Divine Office, shorter version, every day - for 30 years he has, through thick and thin - and he took my hands to pray and there was such passion in his voice, and in his hands enfolding mine, and our voices in prayer sounded wonderful together, and then he gave me a quick chaste hug - and, I didn’t want to go. I had to, I had a long drive thought the hills and it was getting dark, but I could not stop thinking of him, and could not for the next week. And maybe since!

(continued in next post)

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

But it was pretty intense that first week (in fact I wrote him angrily saying, “You did this to me on purpose!”) and I was ashamed that I was not instead rejoicing over God’s miraculous healing work in me. I was so ashamed that I was thinking of Robert instead of God, I was sure that next Sunday at Mass I would feel God far and remote from me because of my ingratitude toward Him after all He had done, and my obsession over a mere person, and I deserved that distance! But to my complete surprise, instead, I felt completely engulfed in His great love and comfort, so strong, so pervasive, filling the Church and all around me, and assuring me so clearly, “Its okay. I am not angry with you.”

That was so real that it was my reassurance that it was okay to love “Robert”. And as to the things “not for me” - the codependency - well I had a lot wrong with me and God fixed it, (and is still fixing to be sure) and, the “ruin”, well, God had shown me through my trials he would provide for me and I had the precious gift of learning to Him. Was I to trust manna now instead of God? I don’t think so. I would have to go on trusting God, and that is not such a bad thing! I know.

So that was October 2011 and we have had several one or two week get-together since plus calling daily and lots of emails. We have practical challenges to get together but we are working on them. Annulments in progress (we just never did it before, both knowing our marriages weren’t “real” most likely in Gods eyes, but neither of us intending to ever date, and, I don’t know if I mentioned in this thread, I thought I might be a nun someday if God called me to, and he, a monk) prepping his house to sell, he is in family counseling for his daughter having read some books on codependency and boundaries. At my first visit I stayed at a nearby convent but that was extra money and gas for driving to and fro, and as money is tight and his daughter is always home adn there was an extra bedroom, she, like my son when he is here, is our “chaperon” (and neither have any idea how much we need them for that role…)

He needs healing for much trouble and pain he had had (and I so admire how stalwart he has been to God and what is right through it all) and he may begin prep for the same healing that I went through. (I have always wanted to be sure of Gd’s direction for him). But our love has brought new life to him and hope springs in him. We are making practical choices planning a good simple God-centered life. We both think we can be more for others and for God by loving each other though life together. It seems to be God’s leading. As I said, my priest is apprised of all. When annulments come through, it will confirm that we are right: it is God’s plan. If they don’t, of course, that will mean we were wrong and it wasn’t. But all signs point that this being His plan for us.

 

[SlackerCatholic]

Egad. You know anyone can fake anything for a week or two at a time, right?

You don’t really know this guy. Until you have spent several months living near him and really getting to know him and his life, you shouldn’t even be thinking about marriage. You certainly shouldn’t be planning your post-annulment life (which may not come through) around him!

Think about this: you probably have pre-set times when you call each other. Face to face, you’ve spent only a few weeks together, and that in small bites. You live too far apart for you to ever catch him out should he be lying to you. He knows you aren’t in town and that you’ll call at such and such time. He would be able to put his life on hold for a week at a time when you visit and heavily control what you see and hear.

If you think I’m crazy, do a little research. This has happened to many people (especially women) who convinced themselves that an online interaction with a few visits was a real relationship. Then they end up in a hellish prison of mental, sexual/physical, and/or financial abuse because they didn’t use the normal human processes of evaluating someone and seeing if their words and their presented image match up with the observable facts of everyday interactions.

Be extremely careful, and only consider marriage AFTER you have lived in the same town with him for AT LEAST half a year, probably more.

 

[jmcrae]

Egad. You know anyone can fake anything for a week or two at a time, right?

You don’t really know this guy. Until you have spent several months living near him and really getting to know him and his life, you shouldn’t even be thinking about marriage. You certainly shouldn’t be planning your post-annulment life (which may not come through) around him!

Think about this: you probably have pre-set times when you call each other. Face to face, you’ve spent only a few weeks together, and that in small bites. You live too far apart for you to ever catch him out should he be lying to you. He knows you aren’t in town and that you’ll call at such and such time. He would be able to put his life on hold for a week at a time when you visit and heavily control what you see and hear.

If you think I’m crazy, do a little research. This has happened to many people (especially women) who convinced themselves that an online interaction with a few visits was a real relationship. Then they end up in a hellish prison of mental, sexual/physical, and/or financial abuse because they didn’t use the normal human processes of evaluating someone and seeing if their words and their presented image match up with the observable facts of everyday interactions.

Be extremely careful, and only consider marriage AFTER you have lived in the same town with him for AT LEAST half a year, probably more.

This is very wise advice. Don’t rush into anything - far too often we see these things play out on the Forums where it’s all sweetness and light to begin with, and then a sad ending. Take your time!