What do YOU think of Catholic Evidence of the REAL Presence

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Dear friend in Chruist

Just how valid, {or IYO} mistaken, is the evidence of “The REAL Presence”?

God Bess you

Patrick
 
PJM said:
Dear friend in Chruist

Just how valid, {or IYO} mistaken, is the evidence of “The REAL Presence”?

God Bess you

Patrick
Click to expand...
I’m not Catholic, but I do believe in the real presence as a holy mystery (which basically means minimal definition, as it is in most of Eucharistic theology outside of Catholicism).

I don’t think that there is any objective evidence for all time. Eucharistic miracles might be taken into account, but they are often subjective. We have writings of the early Church that mention some Eucharistic theology, and the Eucharist is given special reverence that we wouldn’t give to a symbol alone in these writings (as well as the writings of St. Paul, who tells us to examine ourselves before partaking; you can read about St. Paul’s writings from a Catholic source, here).

Christ’s presence in the Eucharist, like almost every other article of the Christian religion, must be taken primarily on faith, though miracles and other interpretations may help that faith.
 
PJM said:
Dear friend in Chruist

Just how valid, {or IYO} mistaken, is the evidence of “The REAL Presence”?

God Bess you

Patrick
Click to expand...
The Real Presence of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, in the Bread and Wine of Holy Communion is reality. The most valid evidence of this reality can be found in Holy Scriptures.

19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. ( Luke 22:19-20)

53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. ( John 6: 53- 56)

*16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. * ( 1 Corinthians 10:16- 17)

It’s from Holy Scripture. Seems very valid to me. Jesus said it and He didn’t say it was to be taken as figurative or a metaphor.
 
LutheranScholar said:
The Real Presence of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, in the Bread and Wine of Holy Communion is reality. The most valid evidence of this reality can be found in Holy Scriptures.

It’s from Holy Scripture. Seems very valid to me.
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I think that the OP implies Catholic evidence (e.g., miracles of the Eucharist). That’s what my post’s assumption is based on. 🤷
 
PJM said:
Dear friend in Chruist

Just how valid, {or IYO} mistaken, is the evidence of “The REAL Presence”?

God Bess you

Patrick
Click to expand...
Honestly, I find it to be completely unconvincing. (I mean no disrespect by this, just answering honestly).
 
LutheranScholar said:
The Real Presence of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Body and Blood, in the Bread and Wine of Holy Communion is reality. The most valid evidence of this reality can be found in Holy Scriptures.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t this mean that to believe it one must accept sacred scripture as divinely inspired? What if you don’t? Does the doctrine stand up to scrutiny on any other evidence?
 
FightingFat said:
Doesn’t this mean that to believe it one must accept sacred scripture as divinely inspired? What if you don’t? Does the doctrine stand up to scrutiny on any other evidence?
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Accepting the Holy Bible as divinely inspired would necessarily and logically lead one to acceptance of the Real Presence, yes, as that was where Jesus’ words affirming this reality were recorded. If you don’t accept the Scriptures as divinely inspired, why bother with Christianity at all? I don’t see how the doctrine can be separated from the rest of Christian faith and life at all.
 
FightingFat said:
Why’s that?
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This answer gets into some deep epistemology. Such as how one determines which passages of scripture are supposed to be interpreted literally verses figuratively, and how non-scripture traditions/sayings/other factors weigh in.
 
jane_doe said:
This answer gets into some deep epistemology. Such as how one determines which passages of scripture are supposed to be interpreted literally verses figuratively, and how non-scripture traditions/sayings/other factors weigh in.
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I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. This is a good question.
 
PJM said:
Dear friend in Chruist

Just how valid, {or IYO} mistaken, is the evidence of “The REAL Presence”?

God Bess you

Patrick
Click to expand...
First on the ‘inside’ view, i.e. assuming you believe Christianity is true.

I think the Catholic evidence that the early church believed in the Real Presence is fairly conclusive. I don’t know about the first and maybe second generation of Christians, but it seems that by pretty early on, this was an important belief of the Church. Because of that, I find Protestant claims against the Real Presence to be very problematic.

Even if you could argue that first generation Christians didn’t believe (and at this point, barring some miraculous discovery, how would we ever really know one way or the other), it seems outrageous that Christ would let His people be deluded for the vast majority of the history of His Church.

Now the ‘outside’ view. I find the evidence completely non existent and frankly, a sort of ridiculous claim. It has the feel of a magic trick without the trick. At some level I don’t even understand what is being claimed beyond the symbolic nature of the ceremony. In any physical question you could ask, it’s still bread and wine. So why isn’t it bread and wine with only spiritual significance? What is supposed to ‘real’ about the presence?

Please note, that I’m replying to the OP about what I think about the evidence. My questions at the end were rhetorical, just point out that the claims seem very bizarre if you aren’t ‘inside’ the belief system.
 
carefullytread said:
First on the ‘inside’ view, i.e. assuming you believe Christianity is true.

I think the Catholic evidence that the early church believed in the Real Presence is fairly conclusive. I don’t know about the first and maybe second generation of Christians, but it seems that by pretty early on, this was an important belief of the Church. Because of that, I find Protestant claims against the Real Presence to be very problematic.

Even if you could argue that first generation Christians didn’t believe (and at this point, barring some miraculous discovery, how would we ever really know one way or the other), it seems outrageous that Christ would let His people be deluded for the vast majority of the history of His Church.

Now the ‘outside’ view. I find the evidence completely non existent and frankly, a sort of ridiculous claim. It has the feel of a magic trick without the trick. At some level I don’t even understand what is being claimed beyond the symbolic nature of the ceremony. In any physical question you could ask, it’s still bread and wine. So why isn’t it bread and wine with only spiritual significance? What is supposed to ‘real’ about the presence?

Please note, that I’m replying to the OP about what I think about the evidence. My questions at the end were rhetorical, just point out that the claims seem very bizarre if you aren’t ‘inside’ the belief system.
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A well balanced post. Agreed completely. 👍

There is no evidence of Real Evidence other than that it was believed and practiced by our fore-fathers, and strong Biblical verses to support it.

It is all by faith, not physical evidence.
 
PJM said:
Dear friend in Chruist

Just how valid, {or IYO} mistaken, is the evidence of “The REAL Presence”?

God Bess you

Patrick
Click to expand...
If youre asking for scientific evidence, there is none. I have a belief its real.
 
Hatikvah said:
I’m not Catholic, but I do believe in the real presence as a holy mystery (which basically means minimal definition, as it is in most of Eucharistic theology outside of Catholicism).

I don’t think that there is any objective evidence for all time. Eucharistic miracles might be taken into account, but they are often subjective. We have writings of the early Church that mention some Eucharistic theology, and the Eucharist is given special reverence that we wouldn’t give to a symbol alone in these writings (as well as the writings of St. Paul, who tells us to examine ourselves before partaking; you can read about St. Paul’s writings from a Catholic source, here).

Christ’s presence in the Eucharist, like almost every other article of the Christian religion, must be taken primarily on faith, though miracles and other interpretations may help that faith.
Click to expand...
Thank you,

A question and a request:)

{a 2 part} QUESTION:

a. HOW could Christ, John or Paul have bben more precise in the language they
choose ?

Jn 6:47-58
[47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

{Douay Bible explanation} 54] Eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood: To receive the body and blood of Christ, is a divine precept, insinuated in this text; which the faithful fulfil, though they receive but in one kind; because in one kind they receive both body and blood, which cannot be separated from each other. Hence, life eternal is here promised to the worthy receiving, though but in one kind. Ver. 52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. Ver. 58. He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. Ver. 59. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57]*** He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him***]WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT TAKES PLACE ON CATHOLIC &oRTHODOX HOLY COMMUNION!}. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

1st Cor 11:26-30
[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25] In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.** [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.** SLEEP" HERE MEANS SELF CHOSEN ETERNAL DAMNATION!}

b. Google “how are Catholic miracles confirmed”

Where is FAITH i what God and His BOOK teach?🤷

God Bless you!
 
PJM said:
Where is FAITH i what God and His BOOK teach?🤷

God Bless you!
Click to expand...
Yes, but everything in Christianity is almost meaningless without faith. (But, just because we don’t believe it doesn’t mean that these things don’t actually take place.) The Bible itself defines faith:
Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.(Hebrews 11:1, NAB translation)
Click to expand...
 
philipl said:
If youre asking for scientific evidence, there is none. I have a belief its real.
Click to expand...
Miracles are for the unbelievers, so there is physical evidence and witnesses to Eucharistic miracles either directly or indirectly. We believers are called to faith and to have the mind of Christ in the real presence in the Eucharist.

Hebrew 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God,* so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

I believe St. Paul sums it up very well for all ages here; In regards to the Real Presence, the Eucharist is revealed by the Holy Spirit and those who partake of the divine nature, who describe these mysteries of God with words revealed by the Holy Spirit described in spiritual terms.

1Cor.1:22
For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23
but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
27
Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong,
28
and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something,
29
so that no human being might boast* before God.

2Cor.2:9
But as it is written:

“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard,

and what has not entered the human heart,

what God has prepared for those who love him,”
10
this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God.
11
Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.
12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13
And *we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. **
14
Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. **
15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.
16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Peace be with you:)
 
jane_doe said:
This answer gets into some deep epistemology. Such as how one determines which passages of scripture are supposed to be interpreted literally verses figuratively, and how non-scripture traditions/sayings/other factors weigh in.
Click to expand...
Great question.

As a non-Catholic, I did not, initially, believe in Real presence of any sort…reason being is Jesus spoke figuratively so often.

This is where ECF’s come in handy.

Some of the earliest documents like the Didache refer to it as a spiritual food.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Miracles are for the unbelievers, so there is physical evidence and witnesses to Eucharistic miracles either directly or indirectly. We believers are called to faith and to have the mind of Christ in the real presence in the Eucharist.

Hebrew 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God,* so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

I believe St. Paul sums it up very well for all ages here; In regards to the Real Presence, the Eucharist is revealed by the Holy Spirit and those who partake of the divine nature, who describe these mysteries of God with words revealed by the Holy Spirit described in spiritual terms.

1Cor.1:22
For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23
but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
27
Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong,
28
and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something,
29
so that no human being might boast* before God.

2Cor.2:9
But as it is written:

“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard,

and what has not entered the human heart,

what God has prepared for those who love him,”
10
this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God.
11
Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God.
12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God.
13
And *we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. **
14
Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. **
15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone.
16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Peace be with you:)
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Again, there is no scientific evidence of the Real Presence. If there is please post a link of the studies and the scientific methods carried out to prove it real.

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