What do you think of men who want a submissive wife?

[Xantippe]

This is what I don’t get. Men who find foreign wives often complain about being mistreated by American women. In spite of that, they turn around and mistreat their foreign wives.

Now I know not all men who are married to foreign women are abusive. However, there seems to be a significant proportion of them.

I once heard a man complain about how the women in his country were too aggressive and did not know how to be feminine. You think the man was American? No, he wasn’t, he was Chinese. This was why he was looking for a foreign wife. Chinese women were too independent, too aggressive. Sound familiar?

My husband is Eastern European born.

I recently told him that many American men on the internet believe that Eastern European women are soft and feminine and sweet. Oh, how he laughed!

The thing is, in places like China or Eastern Europe, women have to be way tougher than in the US, because if you’re not tough, you and your family would (in the not so distant past) literally starve. Hence, there can be a misleadingly sweet exterior and an iron core.

 

[Sarcelle]

It doesn’t surprise me that this thread is a mile long considering the subject matter. In my opinion the Bible verses are pretty clear. Nonetheless, the idea that the man can and should have the final say within a marriage is absolutely repugnant to the overwhelming majority of women, even Catholic women. The impression that I got from reading the responses is that the “anti-submission” Catholics divide into two primary groups. Group #1 is misinterpreting the scripture passages to mean that a man has carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Group #2 is confusing the meaning of the word ‘submission.’

“Wives be submissive to your husbands” does not mean the husbands are free to behave like jerks or to treat their wives as anything less than human. What it means is that wives have a duty to treat their husbands with respect and deference.

In the dictionary ‘Submission’ is defined as “the action of accepting or yielding to the authority of another person.” Submission is not passively allowing oneself to be made into someone’s doormat. Rather it is an active choice to relinquish control out of love for the person to whom submission is given. Does such an act require some humility? Yes. The simplest answer I can give to any women who truly wants to know the meaning of Christian femininity, and is not just fishing for a biblical defense for feminism, is this: look at the Blessed Virgin. Mary’s response was "Behold the handmaid of the Lord ", and that is one of the reasons why we venerate her.

Your example of Mary is lost on me. Her fiat was to God not to Joseph.

 

[Sarcelle]

My husband is Eastern European born.

I recently told him that many American men on the internet believe that Eastern European women are soft and feminine and sweet. Oh, how he laughed!

The thing is, in places like China or Eastern Europe, women have to be way tougher than in the US, because if you’re not tough, you and your family would (in the not so distant past) literally starve. Hence, there can be a misleadingly sweet exterior and an iron core.

The same goes for Japanese women or for that matter, women in the American south, the steel magnolias.

 

[Xantippe]

Your example of Mary is lost on me. Her fiat was to God not to Joseph.

It is actually an interesting fact that in the Protestant fundamentalist groups that are very big on wifely submission, there’s often a weird blurring between husband and God.

 

[pianistclare]

It is actually an interesting fact that in the Protestant fundamentalist groups that are very big on wifely submission, there’s often a weird blurring between husband and God.

Yes, along with a total disregard and disdain for Mary. As a person, as a vessel, as an example.

 

[cheezey]

It is actually an interesting fact that in the Protestant fundamentalist groups that are very big on wifely submission, there’s often a weird blurring between husband and God.

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah, I know.

Here are some quotes from a book called “Me? Obey Him?”

“There is no hint that a woman may have to choose between conflicting authority. … If it is needed in order to fulfill both obligations, God will do a miracle to make it possible. … It is safe to conclude that when God told a woman to obey her husband, He intended for her to be able to do it without risk of offending other authorities. (pp. 25, 28)”

“The Scriptures say a woman must ignore her “feelings” about the will of God, and do what her husband says. She is to obey her husband as if he were God Himself. She can be as certain of God’s will, when her husband speaks, as if God had spoken audibly from Heaven! (p. 28 – emphasis added)”

“Because, when a woman takes God at His word, submits to her husband without reservation, fears God and loves Him, then God takes upon Himself the responsibility to see that a woman does not have to sin! (pp. 37, 38)”

“A man always has the choice of saying yes or no to God. He can reject the pleadings of the Spirit, the pleas of his loving wife. If he does, and he goes on his wicked way, then I have seen God reach down and take that man’s life, rather than make his wife choose between two wrongs. (p. 40)”

patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2011/10/me-obey-him-wifely-submission-laid-on-strong.html

The blogger who pulled out those quotes has another post that I’ll quote specifically on Christian patriarchy and idolatry:

“The literature I read as a child repeated these things over and over again. I was told that when I obeyed my father and his desires for me, I was obeying God. When I did something in my father’s timing, I was doing it in God’s timing. When I submitted to my father’s will, I was submitting to God’s will. This was all true because my father was listening to and directly hearing from God. Therefore, my father’s beliefs, and my father’s plans for my life, must come from God.”

"Christian Patriarchy put my father in the place of God. It made his will God’s will and his views God’s views. Pleasing my father and pleasing God became one and the same thing. Believing what my father said was synonymous with believing what God said. Disobedience to my father was disobedience to God. My father’s voice and God’s voice had somehow combined and become one.

“And it wasn’t just me. This happens over and over and over again in Christian Patriarchy, for wives as well as for daughters. And you know what? This isn’t something that happens accidentally! It’s what is preached in the marriage manuals and booklets! Obey your father/husband! By doing so you are obeying God! Over and over and over again!”

“Christian Patriarchy is idolatry. It is worshiping man in the place of God because it equates an individual man’s will and views to God’s will and views. God and man combine and become one, and the women are left trying to swim in a swirling cloud of authority where what is human and what is divine has become too closely related to separate and even, indeed, one and the same.”

patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/08/christian-patriarchy-as-idolatry.html

Unsurprisingly, many women that have lived under this regime wind up losing their faith. And that totally makes sense–they have been taught to worship fathers and husbands, and when they stop worshiping their father or their husband, what god are they left with?

This is all really messed up and I feel like Catholics should be aware of the theological issues and be quite happy to put LOTS of air space between our beliefs about family and extreme fundamentalist Protestant ones.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

This is what I don’t get. Men who find foreign wives often complain about being mistreated by American women. In spite of that, they turn around and mistreat their foreign wives.

Now I know not all men who are married to foreign women are abusive. However, there seems to be a significant proportion of them.

I once heard a man complain about how the women in his country were too aggressive and did not know how to be feminine. You think the man was American? No, he wasn’t, he was Chinese. This was why he was looking for a foreign wife. Chinese women were too independent, too aggressive. Sound familiar?

I do know guys who married women from traditionally submissive cultures simply because that’s who they met and fell in love with. The guys who sought out the submissive wives all had issues. Not counting the sexually abusive crowd, these were guys who had low self-esteem, control issues, etc. They also didn’t do well in confrontational situations when they were on relatively equal ground. I think that’s part of why it was so easy for the one wife to completely turn the tables on her husband. Once she had the power/money in the relationship, he crumbled.

 

[PolarGuy]

I echo Xantippe’s belief that the “submissive wife” is completely lost when husband dies…but’s it’s actually worse than that IMHO. The husband can run off when his wife gets a bit long in the tooth (or actually stands up to him). Or, if the wife really likes being submissive (as so many of their husbands claim!) she can throw him over if a more Alpha male comes along.

Either way, the whole “submissive” thing is just absurd.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Xantippe, your quotes remind me of this quote from hesso12 earlier in this topic.

Women are not commanded to submit to their husband’s because God insures that men will be just or loving. When a woman submits unto her husband, she is actually submitting unto God (Ephesians 5:22). A woman therefore does not submit because her husband deserves it in his own merit- she submits because she knows it is pleasing to her Lord. There will be times when a woman needs to submit, and her husband does not deserve it from a human perspective. But by divine right, God set the man as leader and a woman can trust that God is good. She can also know that nothing escapes God’s notice, and a wicked man will be held accountable for his actions.

But the actual Ephesians 5:22 quote ( at least per NIV) states:

Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

I suppose the literalistic interpretation of this would seem to suggest wives should actually submit to their husbands as if they actually are gods.

But if that’s the case, then Ephesians 5:23 has really disturbing implications:

For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Yet, I doubt most people in this movement would go as far as to state that the husband is actually the Savior of his wife?

Ironically, of course those in this extreme fundamentalist branch of evangelical Christianity is happy to accuse Catholics of committing idolatry by “praying to” Mary and the Saints. Hmm.

“Because, when a woman takes God at His word, submits to her husband without reservation, fears God and loves Him, then God takes upon Himself the responsibility to see that a woman does not have to sin! (pp. 37, 38)”

“A man always has the choice of saying yes or no to God. He can reject the pleadings of the Spirit, the pleas of his loving wife. If he does, and he goes on his wicked way, then I have seen God reach down and take that man’s life, rather than make his wife choose between two wrongs. (p. 40)”

If hesso12 shares similar views, then it seems the reason the story of Abigail was brought up, was to focus on the fact that God did reach down and take Nabal’s life. But this was only AFTER Abigail did the exact opposite of what her husband wanted her to do (offer hospitality to King David’s men). If this story were to really back up this claim, then God would have smote Nabal BEFORE she took that course of action, so she wouldn’t have to make that choice in the first place.

 

[Xantippe]

Xantippe, your quotes remind me of this quote from hesso12 earlier in this topic.

Yes, the ideas are in general circulation.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Yes, the ideas are in general circulation.

Also, this idea of “divine right” reminds me of the old concept that kings ruled by “divine right” and hence, no matter how tyrannical or incompetent the king was, it was God’s will that he was in this position of power and authority.

Yet, God allowed (actually commanded) Nathan to rebuke David, who actually WAS chosen by God to be the king.

 

[pianistclare]

Well, it’s interesting to note that Hesso’s quotes are taken from a very anti-Catholic site, so even though he identifies as catholic, he is cutting and pasting things that support his view, not the Church’s view.

 

[hesso12]

Well, it’s interesting to note that Hesso’s quotes are taken from a very anti-Catholic site, so even though he identifies as catholic, he is cutting and pasting things that support his view, not the Church’s view.

Anticatholic? nonsense Read site:catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1409

The Family Needs A Head
It is not hard to get people to agree that parents have true authority. It is especially difficult in our modern society to get people to agree that the family must have a head. There must be in the family one person to make some filial choices. In short, we are saying that the husband and father is the head of the family and has a true authority over the wife. He has the right to command. This does not mean universally, indiscriminately, but in a defined area.

To define this area requires discussion by the individual husband and wife. This does not mean that the area is completely to be determined by subjective mutual agreement. The nature of things according to God’s plans will demand some priorities for the husband and some for the wife. The bonum fidei, the good of the faith, for instance will have to have a priority of choice. Moral good must have a priority over economic advantage. But a large part of the area will differ for different couples, according to their own agreement.

Eventually the area will be determined. Within this area, then, the wife owes obedience to the husband. He has the right to command, which means to make the choice.

The reasons for saying that the husband and father exercise a true authority are logical and theological. The logical are derived from reason. The theological reasons are based on revelation as given in Holy Scripture. First, we will examine the logical reasons for the need of a head of the family.

 

[hesso12]

St. Paul reminded the Corinthians that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Man is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.” (1 Corinthians 11:7-10)

St. Peter commanded wives, “be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.”

Ss. Peter and Paul were not creating radical new teaching in these passages. They were simply reiterating what was always understood as God’s plan for marriage and family. Page through the books of the Old Testament, and you will find plenty of examples of what happens when men and women upset the natural order and disobey God’s command. It leads to nothing short of disaster.

Consider Adam and Eve, probably the best known story of disobedience in scripture. God commanded Adam to guard the garden and his wife. Adam was to follow God, and Eve to follow Adam. Instead, Eve disobeyed her husband and followed her own wants. Adam did not stand up to his wife, but followed her instead, reversing the order of submission. God chastises Adam, assigning him a life of sweat and hardship “because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree.” (Genesis 3:17) To Eve, he awards painful childbirth, “yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16)

What about Abraham and Sarah? Sarah was promised a son by God. She got impatient, and had Abraham take Hagar, her maid. That union produced Ishmael, eventually leading to estrangement, heartache, and centuries of conflict between Arab and Jew.

Rebecca ignored God’s promise that her elder twin son would serve the younger. She instead conspired against her aging, blind husband, Isaac, by disguising Jacob, her favorite son. Jacob unworthily received his father’s blessing, cheating Esau out of his Hebrew birthright and changing the course of Jewish history.

King Solomon’s wives turned his heart away from God, convincing Solomon to build a temple for their idols and, as a result, divided the kingdom.

Samson’s wife betrayed him by revealing the secret source of his strength to his enemies. It cost him his life.

The list goes on and on.

But not all biblical women made these kinds of choices. St. Peter refers to holy women of the Old Testament when instructing his contemporaries on the state of marriage: “Rather, let your adornment be the inner self with the lasting beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in God’s sight. It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands.” (1 Peter 3:4-6).

Without question, the most notable example of a marriage that followed God’s ordered hierarchy was the Holy Family. Despite the fact that the child was God and the mother was without sin, it was Joseph, humble and fully human, to whom authority was given. Mary and Jesus loved, honored and obeyed Joseph, the head of their household. This is a great teaching to all of us.

catholicplanet.com/articles/article72.htm

 

[hesso12]

oh dear. This speaks volumes.
May I ask, how old are you?
I am guilty of frequent typos, but the misspellings in your recent threads suggests that you are quite young.
Perhaps more study and less “quoting” is in order.
Peace.

Your quick to find faults in other’s just because I can’t spell correctly.
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.Matthew 7:1
If I can’t spell does that mean I am a child?no

Old people have difficulty spelling,and adults too my parish priest has difficulty spelling so is he 6 years old.

If I asked you your age you would say am a women!

 

[Walking_Home]

Anticatholic? nonsense Read site:catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1409

The Family Needs A Head
It is not hard to get people to agree that parents have true authority. It is especially difficult in our modern society to get people to agree that the family must have a head. There must be in the family one person to make some filial choices. In short, we are saying that the husband and father is the head of the family and has a true authority over the wife. He has the right to command. This does not mean universally, indiscriminately, but in a defined area.

To define this area requires discussion by the individual husband and wife. This does not mean that the area is completely to be determined by subjective mutual agreement. The nature of things according to God’s plans will demand some priorities for the husband and some for the wife. The bonum fidei, the good of the faith, for instance will have to have a priority of choice. Moral good must have a priority over economic advantage. But a large part of the area will differ for different couples, according to their own agreement.

Eventually the area will be determined. Within this area, then, the wife owes obedience to the husband. He has the right to command, which means to make the choice.

The reasons for saying that the husband and father exercise a true authority are logical and theological. The logical are derived from reason. The theological reasons are based on revelation as given in Holy Scripture. First, we will examine the logical reasons for the need of a head of the family.

---

Read and learn the Catechism of the Catholic Church – which is the teaching authorized by the Catholic Church.

Below is the link:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Since you portray as Catholic – you should know of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

BENEDICTUS PP. XVI

INTRODUCTION

1. On 11 October 1992, Pope John Paul II presented the Catechism of the Catholic Church to the faithful of the whole world, describing it as a “reference text”[1] for a catechesis renewed at the living sources of the faith. Thirty years after the opening of the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965), the desire for a catechism of all Catholic doctrine on faith and morals, which had been voiced in 1985 by the extraordinary Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, came to fulfilment.

Five years later, on 15 August 1997, the Pope promulgated the editio typica of the Catechismus Catholicae Ecclesiae and confirmed its fundamental purpose “as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives and prays in her daily life”.[2]

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[Walking_Home]

St. Paul reminded the Corinthians that “the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Man is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.” (1 Corinthians 11:7-10)

St. Peter commanded wives, “be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.”

Ss. Peter and Paul were not creating radical new teaching in these passages. They were simply reiterating what was always understood as God’s plan for marriage and family. Page through the books of the Old Testament, and you will find plenty of examples of what happens when men and women upset the natural order and disobey God’s command. It leads to nothing short of disaster.

Consider Adam and Eve, probably the best known story of disobedience in scripture. God commanded Adam to guard the garden and his wife. Adam was to follow God, and Eve to follow Adam. Instead, Eve disobeyed her husband and followed her own wants. Adam did not stand up to his wife, but followed her instead, reversing the order of submission. God chastises Adam, assigning him a life of sweat and hardship “because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree.” (Genesis 3:17) To Eve, he awards painful childbirth, “yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16)

What about Abraham and Sarah? Sarah was promised a son by God. She got impatient, and had Abraham take Hagar, her maid. That union produced Ishmael, eventually leading to estrangement, heartache, and centuries of conflict between Arab and Jew.

Rebecca ignored God’s promise that her elder twin son would serve the younger. She instead conspired against her aging, blind husband, Isaac, by disguising Jacob, her favorite son. Jacob unworthily received his father’s blessing, cheating Esau out of his Hebrew birthright and changing the course of Jewish history.

King Solomon’s wives turned his heart away from God, convincing Solomon to build a temple for their idols and, as a result, divided the kingdom.

Samson’s wife betrayed him by revealing the secret source of his strength to his enemies. It cost him his life.

The list goes on and on.

But not all biblical women made these kinds of choices. St. Peter refers to holy women of the Old Testament when instructing his contemporaries on the state of marriage: “Rather, let your adornment be the inner self with the lasting beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in God’s sight. It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands.” (1 Peter 3:4-6).

Without question, the most notable example of a marriage that followed God’s ordered hierarchy was the Holy Family. Despite the fact that the child was God and the mother was without sin, it was Joseph, humble and fully human, to whom authority was given. Mary and Jesus loved, honored and obeyed Joseph, the head of their household. This is a great teaching to all of us.

catholicplanet.com/articles/article72.htm

---

That site catholicplanet – is owned/run by a layman – with no authority.

 

[hesso12]

the catechism does not specifically teach that not direct,catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1409 was by priest.Fr. Christopher Rengers

 

[Walking_Home]

the catechism does not specifically teach that not direct,catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1409 was by priest.Fr. Christopher Rengers

---

The Catechism teaches – what it teaches-- the language is not complicated: the mutual subjection of the spouses in reverence to Christ. Simple as that.