What do you think of the federal income tax (FICA)?

[YADA]

Actually, it is quite easy to earn the market average. There are many so called indexed funds that earn the market average. It is those who go for 15, 20%, and higher rates, and lose, that bring up the rear. And, of course those of us who depend on Social Security are still behind those “losers”.

It may be easy but it is still an average and still not what a ‘governemnt’ rate of return would be…

The lady who does our investments and handles my small company’s “Simple IRA” plan does very well averaging about 12% and we are very conservatively invested… but not everyone “chooses” wisely shall we say … and even within funds there are ‘losers’ and ‘winners’ … and not every year is ‘up’ … even in those averages there are ‘down’ years …

It was Vern’s assertion that the ‘government’ return on investment [when the FICA taxes are not invested ] that I take exception to …

They throw people in jail for selling pyramid schemes in todays world but that is exactly the way the Social Security system was set up and it was made worse by increasing the recipeint pool: my exhusband’s brother collected social security payments from the time he was 18 until he was 23 years old … he collected money every month because he was enrolled in college … every term … and yet in 5 years that man never earned a degree … not even an associates [2 year] degree … he did drink beer, smoke pot and take various other illegal pills associated with the 1970’s … paid for with mine and your FICA tax dollars, if you were a wage earner in the 1970’s

 

[RWMorris]

… Taxation is the price for living in society…

So far, I have not read anyone who is against taxation … they are against the government using excessive taxation to reduce our freedoms, tell us how to live, and being our nanny from birth to death.

Excessive taxation leads to excessive government control; which means the government, through the courts, ultimately determines societal and moral norms.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

So far, I have not read anyone who is against taxation … they are against the government using excessive taxation to reduce our freedoms, tell us how to live, and being our nanny from birth to death.

Excessive taxation leads to excessive government control; which means the government, through the courts, ultimately determines societal and moral norms.

I see it as there being two things that need to be done.

First, write laws that are compliant with the Constitution and if the Constitution can be interpreted in a way that changes societal norms, then change the Constitution. Every right-winger’s favorite buddy, Rush, has given an example of the problem with a democracy and going by the “will of the people.” Here’s scenario: three people stuck on an island; two men and one woman. A democratic vote is held as to the question of having sex with the woman. She votes no and they vote yes. The “will of the people” is to have sex with the woman.

That’s the thing about the Constitution. It protects the woman. In some cases, the Constitution has been badly interpreted or fails to take the whole picture into account (as in abortion – the right of the mother is taken into account but what about the unborn child and the father?). Therefore, we sometimes need to clarify the Constitution.

Second, make a better selection of judges.

Finally, let’s not forget the the government is not this thing “out there.” It is the agent of the people in society. It acts on our behalf as a people. Sometimes it does things we don’t like and that’s what elections are for.

 

[RWMorris]

…Here’s scenario: three people stuck on an island; two men and one woman. A democratic vote is held as to the question of having sex with the woman. She votes no and they vote yes. The “will of the people” is to have sex with the woman.

That’s the thing about the Constitution. It protects the woman…

But the problem with taxation is this, if those same two men vote to institute a tax, now the woman has no choice but to concede to “the will of the people”.

Now, once again I will state that I am not against taxation, only the level of taxation that affords the government the opportunity to excessively limit my freedom. What is excessive? I say more than about 5% of our GDP for federal taxes.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

But the problem with taxation is this, if those same two men vote to institute a tax, now the woman has no choice but to concede to “the will of the people”.

Now, once again I will state that I am not against taxation, only the level of taxation that affords the government the opportunity to excessively limit my freedom. What is excessive? I say more than about 5% of our GDP for federal taxes.

Where do you come up with that figure? Seems arbitrary.

 

[ribozyme]

But the problem with taxation is this, if those same two men vote to institute a tax, now the woman has no choice but to concede to “the will of the people”.

Now, once again I will state that I am not against taxation, only the level of taxation that affords the government the opportunity to excessively limit my freedom. What is excessive? I say more than about 5% of our GDP for federal taxes.

Freedom to do what? Don’t you realize that the poor have more freedom in Sweden and Denmark?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Freedom to do what? Don’t you realize that the poor have more freedom in Sweden and Denmark?

That’s a good point…“more freedom” is a usual slogan shouted by right-wing anti-taxers but I’ve never heard what they mean by that.

 

[Verisimilitude]

How about the military? Oh, and let’s not forget corporate welfare?

What about the military? Why do we need troops in Italy and Japan? The Framers did not want the American President to resemble the British king and thought they had deprived him of such powers by restricting Congress to declare the war and fund the military limited to two years. Are you afraid of something or are you seeking monsters to destroy?

I take it you don’t think the money we borrow beyond our means or print beyond its worth, to receive as a tax stimulous package to spend at local stores is good for ‘business’.

Seriously…you may not like it (I’m getting an anti-public services vibe from your posts), but there are laws on the books requiring things like safe and healthy workplaces, people actually, oh, I dunno, get PAID for their work in a form that can be converted to cash and on a regular basis. Now, perhaps you think that it’s acceptable for construction projects to have a “standard of 1 or 2 deaths per project” or people to be paid in scrip that can only be used to buy things at the company store, I dunno, but the rest of the country does not.

I manage construction projects and in 15 years, half billlion $ total no one has died on any project I have been on. There is no such standard. The industry regulates itself like the AMA and UAW all of which lobby Congress for friendly legislation. I’m not a fan of limited stock options as compensation or minimum wage. Davis-Bacon wage controls are inappropriate and abused. Federal construction tax and permit fees are on materials, labor and equipment costs are passed along to the consumer but fund…what? What are the millions collected in OSHA fines used for?

Taxation is the price for living in society.

Those federal permit fees and construction taxes, but also fees for the movement goods along rivers and then rail and road…trucks was the tariff which funded most of the government to include the military before 1913 that many thought unfair because politicians would favor one over others by reduced/eliminated tariffs on an international level but burdened the consumers in America. The income tax was proposed on only the richest with promises of most Americans would never pay the tax on income but within a few years it reached all ecconomic levels.

Then your capital gains that are not reinvested are taxed at the full rate. Sorry.

Would I be wrong to assume you support the death tax- at any level?

Maybe you should have started out saying that you hate taxation. Then I would have just not responded. Some ideologies are nearly impossible to speak to and one based on an absolute hatred of government, public services and taxation is one of them.

What federal service is worth at least 20% of your income? God only asks us for ten.

 

[Verisimilitude]

It may be interesting but … I would not stop paying taxes based upon this … I have seen many similar claims through the years …And I don’t know anyone who has ever prevailed and not had to pay taxes …

Just the threat of litigation/jail by the federal government is enough diswade but also to conclude it is something to be continuiously challenged on the grounds of personal property rights.

I knew a guy about 12 years ago that hadn’t paid taxes in about 3 years. He was full boar into it, had an ‘international’ ID card that he swore with conviction MUST be accepted by the local police. He called me one Monday morning to say he couldn’t come to work because he was in jail since Saturday because he refused to be hooked up to city water/sewage and the tax that came with it. He wanted to stay on his septic system. It was amusing but I don’t argue paying many of the fees and taxes. I buy a national park pass every year, and yearly science museums passes. A gas tax is appropriate, permit fees and transportaion taxes are legitimate. As long as they are collected fairly and used rightly they are a justified part of life.

The Road to H___ is paved with these …

The income tax is paying for the asphalt and a rest stop just past the gates.

 

[YADA]

The income tax is paying for the asphalt and a rest stop just past the gates.

:bigyikes:

 

[Verisimilitude]

Here’s scenario: three people stuck on an island; two men and one woman. A democratic vote is held as to the question of having sex with the woman. She votes no and they vote yes. The “will of the people” is to have sex with the woman.

The Founders cherished personal liberty, not democracy as it were. The federal government was to be severly limited in scope. Jefferson even said democracy was mob rule where 51% control the other 49%. Individual liberty is sacrosanct regardless of gender or age just like life. That is the purpose of our law.

Liberty includes personal property rights. Personal property includes the money earned with income to buy the property like a house or car in the first place. A federal tax on the manufacturing of products/property plus a federal tax on the income earned manufacturing products and then a federal tax when purchasing/building/leasing/insuring/improving the property is excessive.

An end to the tax on income is the just thing to do.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

What about the military? Why do we need troops in Italy and Japan? The Framers did not want the American President to resemble the British king and thought they had deprived him of such powers by restricting Congress to declare the war and fund the military limited to two years. Are you afraid of something or are you seeking monsters to destroy?

I take it you don’t think the money we borrow beyond our means or print beyond its worth, to receive as a tax stimulous package to spend at local stores is good for ‘business’.

While I did make good use of my little check (college tuition), I think there are better ways of stimulating the economy. Cutting taxes on people who will not spend it is NOT one of them.

I manage construction projects and in 15 years, half billlion $ total no one has died on any project I have been on. There is no such standard.

Not today. How about 60-70-100 years ago? How many bodies are entombed in the concrete of Hoover Dam?

The industry regulates itself like the AMA and UAW all of which lobby Congress for friendly legislation.

And hopefully labor is lobbying Congress for worker protections.

I’m not a fan of limited stock options as compensation or minimum wage.

Like Gomer Pile said, “well surprise, surprise!”

Davis-Bacon wage controls are inappropriate and abused.

In what way?

Federal construction tax and permit fees are on materials, labor and equipment costs are passed along to the consumer but fund…what?

I know little about federal regulations on construction taxes or permit fees. I do know something about how things work in California. Cal-OSHA charges $50.00 for a project permit for structures over 36 ft. or excavations more than 5 ft. They issue annual permits to specialty contractors for $100/yr. The money goes to the State General Fund.

What are the millions collected in OSHA fines used for?

In California, Cal-OSHA fines go to the State General Fund. The purpose of the civil penalties (they are NOT fines) is the same as giving you a ticket for speeding. It’s a punative measure for breaking the law. Working for Cal-OSHA for 11 years, I’ve seen some people who should not only be given civil penalties, but should be in prison trading cigarettes for their lives due to the damage (like FATALITIES) they’ve caused through their willful violation of the law.

Those federal permit fees and construction taxes, but also fees for the movement goods along rivers and then rail and road…trucks was the tariff which funded most of the government to include the military before 1913 that many thought unfair because politicians would favor one over others by reduced/eliminated tariffs on an international level but burdened the consumers in America. The income tax was proposed on only the richest with promises of most Americans would never pay the tax on income but within a few years it reached all ecconomic levels.

Those things funded a lot of programs that helped to catapult millions of Americans into the middle class. The Interstate Highway Program allowed the economy to grow. The original GI bill allowed thousands of soldiers returning from WWII to get a college education. Those are programs that have a major payoff in the future because the economic activity they produce is immense and invariably more than pays for themselves.

Would I be wrong to assume you support the death tax- at any level?

There is no such thing as a death tax. The term does not exist in law. I have no problem with the estate tax at all.

What federal service is worth at least 20% of your income? God only asks us for ten.

God is perfect and only needs 10. Man isn’t, so he needs more to work with.

 

[Verisimilitude]

While I did make good use of my little check (college tuition), I think there are better ways of stimulating the economy. Cutting taxes on people who will not spend it is NOT one of them.

Forced taxation and forced spending or penelties? How kind of you.

Not today. How about 60-70-100 years ago? How many bodies are entombed in the concrete of Hoover Dam?

None. It is myth. Structurally it would create voids and that is bad for a dam. Approx 100 people died during its construction. How many dead in the nation building of Iraq?

And hopefully labor is lobbying Congress for worker protections.

Who is lobbying for the thousands wounded?

Like Gomer Pile said, “well surprise, surprise!”

I think the surprise is on you, Gomer.

In what way?

I know little about federal regulations on construction taxes or permit fees. I do know something about how things work in California. Cal-OSHA charges $50.00 for a project permit for structures over 36 ft. or excavations more than 5 ft. They issue annual permits to specialty contractors for $100/yr. The money goes to the State General Fund.

They also offer trsaining classes mandtaed to be taken and paid for by industry. California is not the nation.

In California, Cal-OSHA fines go to the State General Fund. The purpose of the civil penalties (they are NOT fines) is the same as giving you a ticket for speeding. It’s a punative measure for breaking the law. Working for Cal-OSHA for 11 years, I’ve seen some people who should not only be given civil penalties, but should be in prison trading cigarettes for their lives due to the damage (like FATALITIES) they’ve caused through their willful violation of the law.

They are fines.

Those things funded a lot of programs that helped to catapult millions of Americans into the middle class. The Interstate Highway Program allowed the economy to grow. The original GI bill allowed thousands of soldiers returning from WWII to get a college education. Those are programs that have a major payoff in the future because the economic activity they produce is immense and invariably more than pays for themselves.

So why tax my income?

There is no such thing as a death tax. The term does not exist in law. I have no problem with the estate tax at all.

Seperation of church and state does not exist either. Abortion was not passed by congress and signed into law by a President as required to be a law.

God is perfect and only needs 10. Man isn’t, so he needs more to work with.

Man can do without taxing my income.

 

[markomalley]

Raiding Social Security is one of the great shames of the US Congress, but politically popular since it kept taxes down.

And there is no “Social Security Lock Box” never was and never will be … it always has been a type of “pyramid scheme” … where todays income earnerspay todays recipients…

It fails when there are fewer persons paying in then are receiving benefits … from its beginnings there has always been social security funds diverted to the general funds with that money spent on a host of programs unrelated to “Social Security” payments …

There is no “lock box.” Social security was NEVER raided. Regardless of what any politician says or any news pundit says. They simply don’t understand how the social security system works.

I do not isagree with your math

But the government does not “invest” the money taken from you into an account for you … it takes the money to spend on whatever it wants and then pays the retirees with someone else’s money - thats the pyramid part of the scheme …

And the government [via municipal bonds and other government ‘investment’ vehicles like the US Savings Bonds] has never paid your 10% return … in fact - it is much less [just look at US Savings Bonds from 30 years ago and older] …

That’s the point and I wish more people actually understood this.

Social Security pays current beneficiaries out of current receipts gained from current workers. If there are more receipts than expenses, those receipts are invested in a special series of US Treasury Obligations that are available only to Social Security (a small portion is also invested in publicly available issues, as well…but not a significant portion). Interest from those obligations is reinvested, as well. If there are more expenses than receipts, the interest is used to pay out benefits…and if that doesn’t cover it, then those special issue obligations are cashed in.

There are two issues with this.

The first one is the obvious Ponzi-like nature of this. It’s not really a Ponzi scheme, but it sure smells like one. For Social Security to work, there are two conditions that must be met: first – the population must continue to grow. I seem to recall that there needs to be something like 3 or 4 workers working for every beneficiary to receive proper benefits. With our culture’s contraceptive nature and with old folks living too long (to meet the needs of the actuarial tables, at least), the ratio is shrinking down to 2 to 1. That means that we won’t be able to sustain paying benefits with the current level of receipts – and will have to start tapping into the investments. If I remember correctly, this will start someplace between 2017 and 2034.

The second issue is…and this is the one NOBODY is talking about (or VERY FEW PEOPLE, at least)…have you, or any of the politicians out there considered, where the investments are invested? They pay the US debt. And when they start cashing in those investments, the money to pay out is going to have to come from somewhere. That means that either the Federal government will have to spend less on guns and butter or that they’ll have to issue more debt instruments. When they issue more debt instruments, they’ll have to pay more out on interest on those debt instruments, which means that they’ll have to spend less on guns and butter. Or increase taxes. (Again, IIRC, about 1/3 of our tax money goes to pay interest on the debt right now…that is only going to get worse).

Thank you FDR.

 

[markomalley]

BTW, to answer the original question, I don’t like FICA/FITW/SITW withholding from paychecks.

I think that far too few people appreciate exactly HOW MUCH money is being taken from them by the government.

I think that if everybody had to pay a monthly (biweekly) tax bill by writing a check to the IRS, the SSA, and the State revenuers, there would be a massive tax revolt.

How many people look at their pay stubs each pay period and consider the difference between their gross and net pay?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I won’t quibble with your math, but since FICA went into the federal government’s general revenues, that money kept income taxes lower than they would have been. Raiding Social Security is one of the great shames of the US Congress, but politically popular since it kept taxes down.

Two points:

1. The FICA tax is regressive. Because it is capped at around $100,000 a year, people who make less actually pay more of their income. A regressive tax is a heck of a way to finance government!
2. The money is supposedly our retirement fund. If a labor union or corporation did what the government does with our retirement fund, they’d be in jail.

Assuming the federal government was deprived of the 15% FICA, it would have to increase its tax revenue by an equal amount.

Or <gasp!> cut spending!!

 

[RWMorris]

Where do you come up with that figure? Seems arbitrary.

Actually, the US Federal budget consumed 5% or less of the GDP from our nation’s founding until the election of 1936. Now one can interpret the events of the 1936 election many different ways, but it is hard to deny that our elected officials discovered the beauty (!?) of legally buying votes through the use of pork-barrel politics.

Hong Kong’s, until China took over, entire government consumed a total of 15% of their GDP. I see no reason why our federal government can’t function on 5% and allow each state to determine how much additional tax is needed for additional programs. That would force control of most social programs to the local level, giving voters more control and thus more power.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Forced taxation and forced spending or penelties? How kind of you.

In other words, “I benefit by living in the United States, I just don’t want to contribute. It’s MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE!!!” :crying:

None. It is myth. Structurally it would create voids and that is bad for a dam. Approx 100 people died during its construction.

And I vetted that little tidbit and didn’t edit it out. I was actually looking for acceptable death rates on construction sites during the Gilded Age (which is what the right-wing is trying to get us back to).

How many dead in the nation building of Iraq?

4000+ too many.

Who is lobbying for the thousands wounded?

There are veterans groups for the war wounded and there are also groups for injured workers. Unfortunately, the extreme right-wing doesn’t want to help these people. It would mean they have to pay taxes.

They also offer trsaining classes mandtaed to be taken and paid for by industry. California is not the nation.

California has course requirements, too. They save LIVES. We investigated an accident about two years ago in which a man wasn’t trained in how to operate a forklift safely. He died because he didn’t know the physics involved (which is covered by the required class). Aren’t HUMAN LIVES worth a little cost?

And I know about the OSHA Training Institute. It’s about 65 miles south of here in Rancho Bernardo.

They are fines.

In Calfiornia, they are defined under the law as Civil Penalties.

So why tax my income?

Because you benefit from the services provided, you should also help to pay for them.

Seperation of church and state does not exist either.

So you support a State Church?

Abortion was not passed by congress and signed into law by a President as required to be a law.

Things considered rights are never granted under the law, they merely exist and are not violable by the law. As I see it, the problem with the abortion ruling is twofold: first, it failes to take into account the rights of the unborn child and the father and second, it is a bad interpretation of the 14th amendment.

Man can do without taxing my income.

:crying: I benefit from living in the US but I don’t want to contribute! :crying:

 

[Verisimilitude]

In other words, “I benefit by living in the United States, I just don’t want to contribute. It’s MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE!!!” :crying:

As Cool Hand Luke said: ‘stop being so kind to me, boss.’ I don’t think you are reading this thread very close.

And I vetted that little tidbit and didn’t edit it out. I was actually looking for acceptable death rates on construction sites during the Gilded Age (which is what the right-wing is trying to get us back to).

I never heard of an acceptable death rate in anything, have you? What did you vett- the myth? I am not even close to right wing, but your left is showing.

4000+ too many.

But yet you support the use of an income tax to fund the war, fund dictators, and aid packages in the form of corporate welfare.

There are veterans groups for the war wounded and there are also groups for injured workers. Unfortunately, the extreme right-wing doesn’t want to help these people. It would mean they have to pay taxes.

Yours is a very limited view.

California has course requirements, too. They save LIVES. We investigated an accident about two years ago in which a man wasn’t trained in how to operate a forklift safely. He died because he didn’t know the physics involved (which is covered by the required class). Aren’t HUMAN LIVES worth a little cost?

So why steal my paycheck to train him when it is a requirement of the employer who certifies their workers are properly trained?

And I know about the OSHA Training Institute. It’s about 65 miles south of here in Rancho Bernardo.

Mormons have a big white building they call a church. So what?

In Calfiornia, they are defined under the law as Civil Penalties.

In reality they are fines. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Because you benefit from the services provided, you should also help to pay for them.

Define the services…again…that I receive from taxing my income. I described how the military, roads, schools and other things are funded by other taxes, tariffs and fees.

So you support a State Church?

Nope, just the Catholic Church in its spiritual mission.

Things considered rights are never granted under the law, they merely exist and are not violable by the law. As I see it, the problem with the abortion ruling is twofold: first, it failes to take into account the rights of the unborn child and the father and second, it is a bad interpretation of the 14th amendment.

That is about as wrong as I have ever heard. The problem with the abortion ruling is the Judicial branch made law. It is against the law for the courts to make law. Life is in our mission statement (See Declaration of Independence- Liberty is there too.)

:crying: I benefit from living in the US but I don’t want to contribute! :crying:

Man, they have you hook, line and sinker.

 

[RWMorris]

:crying: I benefit from living in the US but I don’t want to contribute! :crying:

If one wants to contribute, it should be voluntary. A case could easily be made that just by working a job and purchasing goods on the local economy, a sufficient contribution is made.

Some people will give away everything everyone else owns.