What do you think of this?

[LtTony]

You are right there is no way that we can understand the nature of the stone, yet even in Pagan arab days the stone was kissed, this would show that it was indeed treated as an idol, or else why would it be kissed?​

Hawk: In all fairness, I think similar things could and have been said about Catholicism. Meedo make a good point.

However, meedo, the phrase “it’s a historical fact” usually makes me skeptical of any claim. History is often a matter of perception; some people chose which “facts” they will believe and which ones they will ignore. Often, these people aren’t even aware they are doing it; they honestly mean no harm. Possibly you can relate to this from the conversations we have participated in where you and I have expressed different views on world events. It may be that neither of us is wrong; we just have different perceptions.

Jim

 

[meedo]

True. May be i wasnt accurate. I dont know. But all i knwo is that in all my life. I have been a muslim book worm . I never ever read before that the black stone was worshiped. Nor ever heared it from any one

 

[LtTony]

meedo:

True. May be i wasnt accurate. I dont know. But all i knwo is that in all my life. I have been a muslim book worm . I never ever read before that the black stone was worshiped. Nor ever heared it from any one

At least for me, this is a better way of stating it. I believe you.

Jim

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

r.gonzales:

if Allah is a pagan god, then does that make arab christians who call god Allah worshippers of a pagan god too?

What matters is not what a deity is called, but what sort of deity that deity is considered to be.​

If Jesus were thought of as a God of hate, death, murder and war, calling Him Jesus would not make Him the Jesus of the NT. Calling God Allah is irrelevant, if the One called upon is the God & Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Content matters more than name: though calling God “Popeye” might be a stretch - but one assumes such frivolities are not being considered ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

hawk:

You are right there is no way that we can understand the nature of the stone, yet even in Pagan arab days the stone was kissed, this would show that it was indeed treated as an idol, or else why would it be kissed?

It sounds to me like the “sacred pillars” of the Bible - Jacob anointed a stone in Genesis 28; the idea being, I think, that the God honoured thereby was thought to be in some sense present in it. This is connected with the practice of having portable “household gods”, such as the teraphim stolen by Rachel from Laban. In both cases, the divine, which otherwise is wholly “other” than man, is objectified & made accessible by being located in an object; and acts of worship received by it, are really meant for the deity to whom it is related and of whom it is (in its way) a representation.​

It need not follow that to kiss or anoint or otherwise “do things to” such an object is idolatry - the object may stand in a relationship to the deity it objectifies which is purely relative: somewhat like the Cross, which receives a relative adoration - it is so intimately associated with Christ, that He is adored by the act which is directed to it as the tangible object of liturgical cult.

If I kiss a picture of a Saint, it’s not because the picture is at all alive or poweful to help me - it is made of the same materials as many things that we throw away. I kiss it because of the person represented, even if the representation is a very poor one. A holy card of a European-looking Jesus, is still a representation of Jesus Christ: even though he was certainly not a pink-skinned Caucasian, and even though no one knows for sure what His appearance was.

IOW - the kissing of the Kaaba stone can be defended with some very Catholic arguments ##

 

[allhers]

Even a kiss can mean many different things, Love, Betrayal, Friendship, Reverence, Respect, …and what about that blarney stone? :irish2:

 

[Ghosty]

Meedo: I just want to point out that I don’t really claim that Allah was the name of a pagan god, I was just assuming that as a possible reality of the name based on what had been said earlier in the thread. I certainly don’t believe, and never have, that Allah is the same god as a pagan deity of the moon; my point was just the opposite.

Sorry for any confusion.