What do you think of Thomas Merton?

[dixieagle]

Let me defend this sentence by Merton a little bit. Let’s start with the actual sentence:

You asked “What’s dangerous about October?” Merton answers that question in the rest of the passage-“you are are full of ambition…It is a wonderful time to begin anything at all”. October is both fine and dangerous for that very reason; ambition is both fine and dangerous, for it can produce both good and bad. You’re right, that particular phrase is meaningless…unless you take it in the context of the passage, where “ambition” and “October” are intertwined.

Next, you say that the choice of crimson is meaningless…but it isn’t. There is a significant difference between crimson and red. Bricks are red, but I’ve never seen a crimson brick. Banners, though-they can be crimson. Finishing with crimson helps build up to the point about ambition.

Finally, we differ on the idea that October is not a season for “shaking off lassitudes”; have you ever breathed in the crisp October air? Walked outside on a chilly October morning and wanted to do something? And that “shaking off lassitudes” is different than the shaking off lassitudes that comes in the spring. Merton, I assume, wrote this particular passage in Kentucky, where the late summer heat is particularly oppressive. August is a time of lazing about, especially in the dog days of summer in the south, but when the heat fades and the chill comes in…then its time to get serious.

There’s real content to that passage, and I’m sure it goes further; its just a snippet out of the book, but it sure is an evocative snippet. It does require thought, though.

As an English major who’s done her share of close literary criticism…thank you for this!!!

 

[dixieagle]

What you present is a very personalized interpretation which you and possibly some others subscribe to. Great for you. However, your interpretations come more from yourself than from the words. If anything, crimson and red are the colors of martyrs, of wars, symbolizing violence - not “ambition”. Your take doesn’t factor that in anywhere. There is no such singularly definable color as “brick red” as you state. Simply call any print ink supplier (as they are masters in the field of colors) and try to get them to send you a can of “brick red” ink. Can’t be done. You would need to select from a color palate of probably no less than 30 or 40 “reds” as you call them. Try Kohl & Madden, if you like.
Though your “explanation” of “ambitious” and “dangerous” might work for you, it falls flat on my ears. In the language of Seasons - Spring is still the undeniable season of ambition to me. And having indeed breathed the “crisp October air”, I have never thought of it as “dangerous” - I have never thought of the possibility of poison gas in the air either, I guess. Perhaps all readers should spend a “lazy” August and “ambitious” October in Kentucky - then these words might mean to them what you suggest. In the meantime, I’ll stick with the Eskimos - we don’t relate. No matter how much “thought it does require” to arrive at your interpretation.

Whatever other talents you may possess, an ear for poetry is evidently not among them.

 

[anode]

…

Much of what you say here is well said. But, for example, I don’t know how you can have “no doubt” that he would have left the Trappists if he had lived longer.

Well, the birth cert thing is certainly a rat’s nest! I will avoid this one. However, I don’t think that O is spending a lot of money in the courts–the ‘birthers’ appear to be doing that.

Of course, I don’t ‘know’ that M would have left the Trappists. He may have returned and continued as he had. However, he appeared to be on a trajectory. But one can be a Buddhist in practice and still be a Catholic monk–there was a real practicing ascetic Benedictine in India, ?Fr. Bede?–I remember reading about. There is a good deal of dialog between eastern and western monks in the US–mainly Benedictine–the Trappists are a Benedictine branch.

 

[anode]

“Apparent” to who? “Amazon.com book reviews” is now considered source material? The “original documents” you mention are what I am asking about - thank you for saying that you know nothing about them. If “all you know” is that the “baby would have the mother’s maiden name” - then you seem to know as much as me or anyone else I have ever asked this question of. The only difference with me is that I then don’t simply swallow the story whole cloth.
.

I have no reason to doubt the story. It’s a terrible story, assuming it is true, but it explains a number of things, and fits in with TM’s later lapses and some things that his friends observed–this is all in Mott’s book. And I read about this in Mott’s book, not on amazon.

I have no axe to grind over all this–I have no reason to doubt Mott’s sources–apparently this is an authoritative biography. However, you could probably contact Michael Mott through his publisher and ask him for his sources.

 

[30miller]

However, I don’t think that O is spending a lot of money in the courts–the ‘birthers’ appear to be doing that.

Do you have any actual experience “in the courts”? It ends up costing equally as much to be a defendant defend as it does to be a plaintiff. Do you think defense lawyers work for free? I remember coming out of a court hearing once and my “defense” lawyer was feeling his oats since it was clear “we” were going to “win” - so he decided to point out to me how much the plaintiff lawyers had cost the plaintiff to that point. I don’t know how he got the info, but he apparently thought it was an exorbitant amount - without bothering to check the total he had billed me to date, which was virtually the same amount. All lawyers are the only “winners” in the legal game.
Funny thing is that you O-ites are the ones who gave The Anointed One, as Sean Hannity defines him, the money to defend with your contributions.

Of course, I don’t ‘know’ that M would have left the Trappists.

Er, uh, what? You just said the opposite in your other post. Now you put the words “Of course…” in front and say the opposite. Does that mean it’s only really what you think if your statements begin with that?

 

[djeter]

No, Mr. Jeter, you were NOT illustrating “30Miller’s line of reasoning” in any way. Cephas is exactly on target with his observations about your post.
I’m puzzled as to what happened to your “genteel” approach to “dialoging” (sp?) with others - guess that only applies to Mertonites. All you had to do was ask me if I thought Merton was without any talent and I most certainly would have responded in the negative to that question. (I’m one of the few on this thread who actually answers direct questions directly). I think it’s probably impossible for a man to end up in the position that the Mertonites currently place this man in and at the same time for him to have had “no talent”. I stand with my kindred spirit on this point (Cephas). Let Jeter speak Jeter’s thoughts and let 30Miller speak 30Miller’s. Dialoging (sp?) works a lot better that way.
I’ve never said Merton had “no talents” - just as I never have and would never say that Obama has “no talents”. Just as I would never would say that Father Marcial Maciel Degollado had “no talents”. Your “illustration” of my “line of reasoning” is completely incorrect, off the mark, wrong, etc.

Oh c’mon, 30 Miller. You have consistently treated Merton as a no talent new age hack, deriding passages of his writing and holding those who admire his depth and spirituality as being deluded. I don’t have to “ask” you what you have continually demonstrated over several posts, i.e., one’s character determines one’s essence and Merton has no claim to any redeeming religious or literary value due to his character flaws. As a line of reasoning, it is shoddy – as others have cited examples and shown.

But, hey, you want to agree with us that he is talented, I won’t stand in your way. What was that Billy Joel song – don’t go changin’ to try and please me…

dj

 

[30miller]

I have no reason to doubt the story. It’s a terrible story, assuming it is true, but it explains a number of things, and fits in with TM’s later lapses and some things that his friends observed–this is all in Mott’s book. And I read about this in Mott’s book, not on amazon.
I have no axe to grind over all this–I have no reason to doubt Mott’s sources–apparently this is an authoritative biography. However, you could probably contact Michael Mott through his publisher and ask him for his sources.

“…no reason to doubt…terrible story…assume it is true…”. Huh? I get it, though - apparently you simply accept everything you read and believe it at face value never having come across any real evidence (which any author with any integrity whatsoever would have put in a footnote, reference notes, etc.). Others on this thread have called in to question Mr. Mott’s work. OK.

 

[30miller]

Oh c’mon, 30 Miller. You have consistently treated Merton as a no talent new age hack, deriding passages of his writing and holding those who admire his depth and spirituality as being deluded. I don’t have to “ask” you what you have continually demonstrated over several posts, i.e., one’s character determines one’s essence and Merton has no claim to any redeeming religious or literary value due to his character flaws. As a line of reasoning, it is shoddy – as others have cited examples and shown.
But, hey, you want to agree with us that he is talented, I won’t stand in your way. What was that Billy Joel song – don’t go changin’ to try and please me…

Fear not, Mr. Jeter - I have not and have no intention of changing my position on Merton. So why not give up trying to “defend” your indefensible position with more illogical constructs. No person operating at the level Merton operated at “had no talent”, as YOU say in attempting to put YOUR words in MY mouth. Please cease your false and calumnious statements now and move on.
The arrogance exhibited by your statement that you “…don’t have to ask…” me what I REALLY think is astounding, to say the least. Words matter, Mr. Jeter. I’d ask you to show me where I “…derided passages of his writing…” - but I know that you can’t. In response to a positive presentation of one example of Merton’s poetry I took the opposite position. That doesn’t constitute “deriding passages” as you falsely claim. Do you understand the difference between singular and plural? An honest poster can’t make the broad calumnious accusations that you make in the plural based on a singular incident.
Thank you for agreeing not to “stand in my way” when I present what I REALLY think as opposed to your delusions.

 

[30miller]

Whatever other talents you may possess, an ear for poetry is evidently not among them.

I’ll stand behind my stated positions. It never fails to amaze me that you self-professed “talented” Mertonites seem incapable of offering up much more than incomplete and illogical self-serving accusations. The evidence on this thread of my “ear” consists of two poems actually. Not just your hero’s, upon which you mete out your judgement on me - but my introduction of Chesterton’s “Lepanto” as well. I’ve made my case that one is great (Chesterton’s, of course) and one is not (Merton’s). My guess would be that most posters on this thread (perhaps including yourself) have never even heard of Lepanto let alone read it. If they had they would easily get the basic comparison I was making which is that Merton’s piece is pedestrian when compared to great writing - which was my only point concerning his poem. And that was after my CLOSE analysis of his writing. Why don’t you try the same?

 

[anode]

“…no reason to doubt…terrible story…assume it is true…”. Huh? I get it, though - apparently you simply accept everything you read and believe it at face value never having come across any real evidence (which any author with any integrity whatsoever would have put in a footnote, reference notes, etc.). Others on this thread have called in to question Mr. Mott’s work. OK.

You have to be one of the* angriest* and *most hostile *posters I have encountered on CAF

I have no stake in the Merton controversy. I read Mott’s book years ago. I have not thought of it since, other than it confirmed some of my suspicions regarding Merton’s emotional stability. I still feel that he was a brilliant man, excellent writer and scholar and, from the posts on this thread, apparently has helped a lot of people. Period.

No, I don’t ‘accept everything I read’–but I am not interested in pursuing the documentation of the details of Merton’s life. If you are, go for it, but don’t go around insulting other people.

 

[djeter]

That doesn’t constitute “deriding passages” as you falsely claim.

Ah, so calling Merton’s writing “pedestrian” or “new age” and labeling those of us who admire his talents as “lemmings” doesn’t fit into your waltz here, I guess. I wish I could apologize and say I stand corrected but every time you post your charges of “false claims” and other accusations of high calumny against me you offer more evidence I have you pretty much dead to rights.

The problem, as I noted before, is that you have a very aggressive style of debate that you seem to be totally unaware of. Your “content” analysis of the Merton quote I offered WAS derisive (whether you know it or not) and you totally missed my parody of your attempt to interpret literature. Let me be blunt: Your “content analysis” is a joke.

I think you have upset a lot of people here because your style of debate simply doesn’t fit with the nature of the forums. When someone is crediting Merton with helping to bring them home to the Catholic Church, the proper response is not to attack them for being a deluded poor sod who has been taken in by some sociopathic monk utterly lacking in character. Perhaps that’s tough love in your book but I would suggest you read a little Fr. Guardini here:

*“Doesn’t Christian community mean helping one another to understand God’s word? Haven’t we all known some person who has made Christ’s message clearer to us, has taught us to pattern our lives more truly after his? Who is not grateful to some personage of the past, whether a great mind or a great saint or anyone who has taken his faith seriously? ….

It is entirely fitting and proper that man hear his God through his fellow men, for all lives are inextricably interwoven into the one great community of human existence. No one life is self-sufficient. My existence draws on the core of my being but simultaneously on others in order to exist. Plantlike, we sprout from our own seed, but we grow by feeding upon other growth. In the same way we arrive at truth through personal recognition; the ‘ingredients’ which go into that recognition, however, are brought us by others. Man is humanity’s way to life — and of course, to death. Man is humanity’s way to God, and it befits us that God’s word personally penetrate each of our hearts, but that it be brought to us by others.”*

Who are you, Mr. 30 Miller, to start dictating to others who should bear that word and who shouldn’t? Nor would I label anyone a “lemming” for having been moved by Tom Merton. But that’s just me. Sorry you don’t agree. I will leave it there. Spare me a reply.

dj

 

[30miller]

You have to be one of the* angriest* and *most hostile *posters I have encountered on CAF

Huh?Huh? (That’s a double-huh). You unleash a stream of invective (“angriest”, “most hostile”) - specifically citing words of mine that have contain no such thing in them. I simply choose to stand my ground against the (for the most part) ludicrous positions presented which attempt to portray Merton as some sort of icon — and that’s all you got?

No, I don’t ‘accept everything I read’–

Whew - that’s great! Glad to hear it.

but I am not interested in pursuing the documentation of the details of Merton’s life.

I am.

If you are, go for it, but don’t go around insulting other people.

Did you ever hear of “the pot calling the kettle black”? QED.

 

[30miller]

… I have you pretty much dead to rights.
… Your “content analysis” is a joke.
… Sorry you don’t agree… Spare me a reply. (djeter)

Hmmm. So you’ve made the decision to replace your attempts to put YOUR words in MY mouth with your new “it’s either my way or “shut up”” approach. Why am I not surprised (or impressed)? (That’s all the response your post deserves. No sense wasting any more time on it ).

 

[dixieagle]

I’ll stand behind my stated positions. It never fails to amaze me that you self-professed “talented” Mertonites seem incapable of offering up much more than incomplete and illogical self-serving accusations. The evidence on this thread of my “ear” consists of two poems actually. Not just your hero’s, upon which you mete out your judgement on me - but my introduction of Chesterton’s “Lepanto” as well. I’ve made my case that one is great (Chesterton’s, of course) and one is not (Merton’s). My guess would be that most posters on this thread (perhaps including yourself) have never even heard of Lepanto let alone read it. If they had they would easily get the basic comparison I was making which is that Merton’s piece is pedestrian when compared to great writing - which was my only point concerning his poem. And that was after my CLOSE analysis of his writing. Why don’t you try the same?

To each his/her own. I happen to love Chesterton; believe me, as English literature and poetry is my “thing”, I’ve read plenty.

Merton was a complex man; libertine, monk, outstanding teacher, poor example, gifted writer, not-so-gifted poet (your assessment), hermit, escape artist, holy man, sinner. It is, I believe, this complexity that those who study him find riveting.

I’ve been following this thread mainly because my dh is, at the moment, the chief official “Mertonite”, as you would call him. (That made him laugh out loud; he says that he rather prefers the sound of “Mertonian”, himself). Like Merton or not - it really matters not to me; I’ve just been fascinated by your vehemence.

 

[30miller]

To each his/her own. I happen to love Chesterton

Excellent.

believe me, as English literature and poetry is my “thing”, I’ve read plenty

I admit to being puzzled by what it must mean to be your “thing”. If you “love Chesterton” and “poetry is your thing” - have you never read Chesterton’s “Lepanto” (the only other poetry opinion I’ve offered on this thread)? And if you have do you not consider it great? And if you do consider it great - why, in your critical (to say the least) “close” analysis of my “ear” could you not find it anywhere in your Mertonian (in deference to your dh) consciousness to disclose this area of agreement with one who you admit has captured your fascination? Afraid the other Mertonians (!) might turn on you or what? At the very least - if you could only recommend one poem (of the two) to someone - surely you wouldn’t recommend that Merton mush over Chesterton’s Lepanto, would you?

Merton was a complex man; libertine, monk, outstanding teacher, poor example, gifted writer, not-so-gifted poet (your assessment), hermit, escape artist, holy man, sinner.

Exactly correct! Couldn’t have said it better myself. If other Mertonians could find the strength to post as honestly as this - your dh would not be laughing out loud in conjunction with your fascination with me for I would then have better things to do as well.

It is, I believe, this complexity that those who study him find riveting.

Actually, most Mertonians (!) I’ve encountered apparently don’t study “him” in the least. They’ve simply swallowed the party line and choose to completely ignore the extensive list of shortcomings that you have so kindly spelled out for them above (thanks again).
You obviously have taken the time to recognize and understand the whole Merton and have shown the strength here to risk the wrath of the Mertonians posting to that issue. I salute you.

I’ve been following this thread mainly because my dh is, at the moment, the chief official “Mertonite”, as you would call him. (That made him laugh out loud; he says that he rather prefers the sound of “Mertonian”, himself).

As Merton is at least “of” the planet earth and given the way I “see” him - I prefer the “ite” suffix because I guess he more resembles the relationship displayed by that of green kryptonite to superman. Both come from the same planet (Krypton) but for some reason the kryptonite is extremely harmful to superman unless he shields himself with lead. Some similar protection is recommended when reading Merton. Your dh’s “ian” suffix is more “otherworldly” ( e.g. like a Martian) - and it is not my thought or claim that Merton is from another planet. He is undeniably from earth.

Like Merton or not - it really matters not to me

Could have fooled me on that one!

I’ve just been fascinated by your vehemence.

You know, I’ll have to take that as a compliment. I just looked up the meaning of the word and it says “…showing strong feeling, forceful, passionate, intense…”. You’re allright, Dixie.

 

[30miller]

Well, the birth cert thing is certainly a rat’s nest! I will avoid this one.

Sorry to befuddle you with facts. Must just be me, I guess. Before - you lash out with statements like “…birthers are nuts…”. Then I share a few actual facts with you on the topic. All of a sudden - eek - it’s a “rat’s nest” and you now say you will “avoid this one”.
Only problem is that you are a little late taking on your new position - after what you wrote in your post #175. You can’t just all of a sudden not have a position by “avoiding” - after what you already wrote. You should have avoided it before sharing those words of yours with us - to remind you “…First, re Obama, he did offer his birth certificate, which for some reason the ‘birthers’ won’t accept. A columnist whose daughters were delivered at the same hospital by the same obstetrician compared the syntax and statements on both sets of certificates of birth and found them to be exactly matching name of hospital, name of doctor, address of parents . His dgtrs were born within 4 yrs of Obama. The Republicans would have vetted Obama for this from the beginning. I think that the ‘birthers’ are nuts…”.

 

[Cephas1229]

Well, let’s see. Another thread highjacked by an angry man who does not apparently know that he’s angry. After a heated debate in 2007, I left CAF only to come back in 2010 to find the same close minded opinions and uncharitable confrontations and an unwillingness to dialogue as mature Christians. The mods apparently are deaf, dumb and blind or don’t particularly care about the tone on these boards. See you all in…well let’s say 2013. Until then, I’ll keep you all in my prayers.

 

[dixieagle]

]I admit to being puzzled by what it must mean to be your “thing”. If you “love Chesterton” and “poetry is your thing” - have you never read Chesterton’s “Lepanto” (the only other poetry opinion I’ve offered on this thread)? And if you have do you not consider it great? And if you do consider it great - why, in your critical (to say the least) “close” analysis of my “ear” could you not find it anywhere in your Mertonian (in deference to your dh) consciousness to disclose this area of agreement with one who you admit has captured your fascination? Afraid the other Mertonians (!) might turn on you or what? At the very least - if you could only recommend one poem (of the two) to someone - surely you wouldn’t recommend that Merton mush over Chesterton’s Lepanto, would you?

Indeed I have read “Lepanto”. I don’t believe I said anywhere that I preferred Merton’s poetry to Chesterton’s, or anyone else’s. My reference to your “ear for poetry” was, in case you didn’t get it, lighthearted and in jest (hence the winking “smilie”). “Lepanto” is an example of grand epic poetry; that is just not Merton’s style. (Have you read any of Merton’s Marian poetry? Quite lovely.)

I actually have been exposed to Merton solely through my husband’s involvement. My experience has been tangential, at best. I worry not at all about Merton fans “turning on me”. They are, by and large, an exceedingly laid-back, peaceful bunch.

Exactly correct! Couldn’t have said it better myself. If other Mertonians could find the strength to post as honestly as this - your dh would not be laughing out loud in conjunction with your fascination with me for I would then have better things to do as well.

To be honest, I doubt that most of the Merton fans I’ve met have ever ventured onto these boards. I am fascinated only by the intensity of your dislike for Merton.

Actually, most Mertonians (!) I’ve encountered apparently don’t study “him” in the least. They’ve simply swallowed the party line and choose to completely ignore the extensive list of shortcomings that you have so kindly spelled out for them above (thanks again).
You obviously have taken the time to recognize and understand the whole Merton and have shown the strength here to risk the wrath of the Mertonians posting to that issue. I salute you.

Actually, those who I have encountered - real Merton scholars - have delved into every nook and cranny of his life. But then, I am talking about people who do research, present papers, and write books about Merton, or people who were friends and knew him well. Anyone who really studies Merton is well aware of the complex nature of the man.

As Merton is at least “of” the planet earth and given the way I “see” him - I prefer the “ite” suffix because I guess he more resembles the relationship displayed by that of green kryptonite to superman. Both come from the same planet (Krypton) but for some reason the kryptonite is extremely harmful to superman unless he shields himself with lead. Some similar protection is recommended when reading Merton. Your dh’s “ian” suffix is more “otherworldly” ( e.g. like a Martian) - and it is not my thought or claim that Merton is from another planet. He is undeniably from earth.

Definitely from earth…thoroughly human with all that implies.

 

[30miller]

Well, let’s see. Another thread highjacked by an angry man who does not apparently know that he’s angry. After a heated debate in 2007, I left CAF only to come back in 2010 to find the same close minded opinions and uncharitable confrontations and an unwillingness to dialogue as mature Christians. The mods apparently are deaf, dumb and blind or don’t particularly care about the tone on these boards. See you all in…well let’s say 2013. Until then, I’ll keep you all in my prayers.

Couldn’t imagine who this poster is referring to - given his pledge to put me on his ignore list??? Thank you for your pledged prayers, though. Ta ta - 2013 then - I’ll mark my calendar.