What do you think?

[Richard_Kastner]

I posted these on The Seventh Day Adventist thread and the person that these were a reply to decide for whatever reason not to reply so I thought that I would start a thread to see what the general forum public thinks.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tqualey
Hi, Richard,

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
How do you figure this. You can’t argue that he kept Sunday from those posts. So it can’t go any way you want it.

Paul’s letters are filled with his on-going efforts to convert his fellow Jews. To do this, he did what was necessary and that was to meet them in their synagogues - on the Sabbath - and preach to whomever was there. And, yes, Paul was very successful - but, not as successful as he would have wanted to be! What I am saying is that I am confident Paul worshiped God every day - not just on the Sabbath or on Sunday - but, every day. Now, you can say, “There is no evidence for this in Scripture” - and you would be right! But, that means that only what is written can be real - and we all know that more took place then what was written. It certainly is not unreasonable to say Paul worshiped God every day, is it?

This is what is called a “straw man” argument. You attribute to me a statement that I never made “There is no evidence for this in Scripture” and then try to tear down the “straw man” that is completely of your invention by saying “that means that only what is written can be real” All this to divert attention from the real evidence from scripture that Paul was a Sabbath keeper. To answer your concluding question/statement. No it is not unreasonable to say that Paul worshipped God every day and I think I made this very point in one of my earlier posts. However there is absolutely no evidence that Paul altho he had ample opportunity ever substituted the first day or Sunday for the Sabbath.

Well, it wasn’t Peter that changed the law. James does.

A truly interesting distinction - while one I do not agree with (Christ did not tell James that whatever James bound on earth was bound in heaven - Christ only gave that Power to Peter

Well if you disagree with this you are disagreeing with the bible not me. When Peter got up to talk he simply says that according to the vision he recieved (in acts 10) that he is told to bring the gospel message to the Gentiles. He does make mention in v.10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Of a yoke. Meaning the yoke of laws that were placed on the Jews by the Pharisees.
The one who makes the proclamation on what needs to be kept is James, Jesus’ brother. Who by the way was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, not Peter. Then James gets up and after he acknowledges Peter. Acts 15:13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (chosen people)
Makes the proclamation Acts15:19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Notice he does not even mention circumcision. This is because circumcision is still required. Only the outward sign of it is changed.
Rom. 2:28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Why would Paul make such a big deal about being a Jew here (not outwardly in the flesh, but inwardly of the heart). It’s because SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that we have to convert to Judaism. What I am saying is that there is a general misunderstanding as to what a Jew is. In Rom. 9 Paul refers to them as Israelites 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not Hebrews: distinguished by language or Jews by race, but Israelites which designates them by their position as God’s chosen people. " to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" they are heirs of the promises given to the fathers. In the NT the title is transferred to the Christian church, which Paul speaks of as “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16).

Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. So, in times past we were Gentiles in the flesh being without Christ, but now through faith in Jesus Christ, we become cicumcised (Jews) not in the flesh, but in the heart.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Re: Seventh Day Adventists​

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but, let’s not get distracted with that - you agree circumcision was changed - THIS LAW OF GOD NO LONGER HAD TO BE FOLLOWED. That is the heart of the matter -

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Your statement that “THIS LAW OF GOD NO LONGER HAD TO BE FOLLOWED”. is not completely accurate as I have shown in my previous reply to this post. It was merely changed from the external to the internal.

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My statement is that it was done here -and, guess what, it was done in changing from the Sabbath to Sunday. Of course, you can again say, “There is no evidence for this in Scripture” and I am telling you that those who wrote the Scripture did not write everything down. Ah, but before you scoff and demand a scriptural reference, let me tell you about the Scriptural references in John 6 and he Last Supper accounts in Matthew, Mark and Luke where Christ said, This is My Body" and you do not believe His own words. Honest, Richard, you can’t have it both ways.

Again the straw man. You see Tom I never made this statement “There is no evidence for this in Scripture” So, when you start to tear down your straw man you are arguing with yourself, not me. This is really quite humrous when you come out of your intenal argument and rebuke me for your completely contrived scenario. “Honest, Richard, you can’t have it both ways” If you want to have an honest dialogue, why don’t we do just that and forgo the little games.

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Really, Richard, the point of giving a lengthy quote is to prove a point - not to evade a point. Please focus on the fact that a major CHANGE took place - of a LAW that dated back to Abraham.

Yes a change did occur but, it was not major in that circumcision was not done away with, only the outward form was changed.

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The Sabbath is different because it is part of the decalogue and is forever. Now, where does that come from?!

It comes from these scriptures and others
Isaiah 24:5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Exodus 31:16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

How about this Tom
16For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
19And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

This is saying that the people of God will come out of all nations (not just Jews) to proclaim the glory of God. And God will set a sign among them. What do you suppose that sign is Tom.
Ex.31:13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

20And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

Peter makes reference to this 1Peter2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

This is probably an allusion to
Deut.14:1Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
2For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. As well as Isaiah 66:10

So, Peter makes a reference to the people of God in the new testament, that is talking about Christians and it is a direct reference to the old testament that is talking about Jews. Deut.14:2 and Isaiah 66:10
And then we have
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Well, apparently we will keep the sabbath day in the new heaven and the new earth.

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This quote is of interest mainly because it is addressed SPECIFICALLY to the Children of Israel. I am a Christian - and, you are too! We are not Children of Israel - we are Children of God through Baptism.

It’s interesting that you use the term “children of Israel” Which means children of promise which is the promise of a Savior given to the patriarchs. So when you say that “We are not Children of Israel” You will have to speak for yourself.

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Where in Scripture did God throw out the other 600+ Laws and just kept these 10?

Col2: 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

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In Christ Richard