What does Catholic/Christian femininity mean to you?

[Elena321]

Or femininity in general and both females and males can answer their perspective.
From my view,it seems that cultures like US,Australia etc don’t value femininity enough and the focus is always on achieving more,working more,having more etc and things like being full time mothers are seen as unproductive,lazy or “backwards and old fashioned” or that the women just want to bludge and be provided for financially etc.
I’m not a mother but that’s just what I perceive as a general view.
Also things like dance,foreign language learning or other more “feminine” things are not held at the same worth/esteem in schools such as other subjects like maths or science.
Sometimes it’s hard to be feminine and it’s probably more easier/welcomed in other places like China,Russia etc.

 

[underacloud]

Sometimes it’s hard to be feminine and it’s probably more easier/welcomed in other places like China,Russia etc.

I’d rather be a woman in US or Australia than in Russia or China. But then I’m a man, so maybe we can let the women around here decide.

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t believe being “unfeminine” or however you want to say it has anything to do with career choice, vocation in life, etc.
Nor is it particular to a faith. A person’s femininity can be expressed differently by different women.
It’s about cherishing your womanhood, enjoying it, not being ashamed of it, yet not being vain about it. A woman who is feminine does not purposely draw attention, but does most often receive attention, if that makes any sense.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’d rather be a woman in US or Australia than in Russia or China. But then I’m a man, so maybe we can let the women around here decide.

I don’t know about Russia, but from the way China treats its female children and babies, femininity is not valued there.

 

[Sarcelle]

Or femininity in general and both females and males can answer their perspective.
From my view,it seems that cultures like US,Australia etc don’t value femininity enough and the focus is always on achieving more,working more,having more etc and things like being full time mothers are seen as unproductive,lazy or “backwards and old fashioned” or that the women just want to bludge and be provided for financially etc.
I’m not a mother but that’s just what I perceive as a general view.
Also things like dance,foreign language learning or other more “feminine” things are not held at the same worth/esteem in schools such as other subjects like maths or science.
Sometimes it’s hard to be feminine and it’s probably more easier/welcomed in other places like China,Russia etc.

Sexuality is intrinsic to a person. Doing something does not make you one or the other. It is not like a hat you can lose.

The arts and sciences are both human expressions. I do not see any reason why practicing one or the other makes you more masculine or feminine.

 

[sesenena]

I think that being feminine is being who you are, not trying to act and be like a men. As women, we have a heart for caring for people (men care for people too, of course, but in a different way). I don’t like the adjective ‘feminine’ too much, because when I think of something feminine I think of a Holly Hobbie I think that we should try to be not feminine, but real women, we should try to be what we are, not act like men thinking that the world wouldn’t accept us for who we are.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think that being feminine is being who you are, not trying to act and be like a men. As women, we have a heart for caring for people (men care for people too, of course, but in a different way). I don’t like the adjective ‘feminine’ too much, because when I think of something feminine I think of a Holly Hobbie I think that we should try to be not feminine, but real women, we should try to be what we are, not act like men thinking that the world wouldn’t accept us for who we are.

True.

We should all try to grow into the best version of ourselves and not a second rate version of someone else.

 

[Xantippe]

I’d rather be a woman in US or Australia than in Russia or China. But then I’m a man, so maybe we can let the women around here decide.

I’ve lived in Russia (granted it was 18-21 years ago) and yeah, that’s right.

I am not totally up on the new Russia (but I stay in touch) and I think that Russian women (and probably a lot of Eastern European women can be visually very deceptive. On the one hand, they are scrupulous about dress and make up. On the other hand, they are used to doing it ALL. And when I say all, I mean ALL. When I was there, most families I knew were literally growing every single potato they ate over the winter–and they ate potatoes just about every day.

My husband is Eastern European born and I’ve mentioned to him the US and Anglo-Saxon country stereotype of Eastern European women as being feminine. He found that idea absolutely hilarious. He said he thinks of American women as being much more soft and feminine. The Eastern European woman (while she may look feminine to the American eye in dress and style), is made of steel.

I am less familiar with China, but from what I hear, there may be a similar optical illusion at work–clothes and dress that register as “feminine” on Westerners, while the personalities are tough as nails.

 

[DebChris]

I think that being feminine is being who you are, not trying to act and be like a men. As women, we have a heart for caring for people (men care for people too, of course, but in a different way). I don’t like the adjective ‘feminine’ too much, because when I think of something feminine I think of a Holly Hobbie I think that we should try to be not feminine, but real women, we should try to be what we are, not act like men thinking that the world wouldn’t accept us for who we are.

We need to get away from the idea of being feminine as being Holly Hobbie. Thinking that I had to be Holly Hobbie to be feminine made it very difficult for me when I was a girl.
The best thing any teacher could have said, at a time when I needed to hear it was that some of the most feminine women are athletes. Why did I need to hear that? Because I was a tomboy. I liked all the things most commonly associated with boys. Those were the things I was good at doing.
It is important that we not attach cultural norms to what God has created. When I was pregnant, I read Bonnie Prudden’s book, How to Keep Your Child Fit From Birth to Six. I loved what she wrote about cherishing your tomboy if you should have one. “She is being prepared for something special.”
No woman needs to pretend to be something that she is not. My granddaughter was always the best student in her elementary school in math. Girls can excel in STEM subjects as much as boys. I was actually surprised to learn that the science books in my room did belong to mother, and not my brothers. That just shows what she sacrificed on behalf of the family.
One of my brothers taught me to sew buttons on shirts (so he wouldn’t have to), and another how to cook rice. It was my brothers who taught me to play Chess as well as how to throw a football. My father showed me the correct way to hold a hammer. Being feminine does not mean being helpless.
While being feminine is not about acting like a man, it is not about hiding your abilities either, especially your intelligence. The times that I have been called a lady have been the times when I actually stood up for myself and refused to be intimidated.

 

[Xantippe]

Or femininity in general and both females and males can answer their perspective.
From my view,it seems that cultures like US,Australia etc don’t value femininity enough and the focus is always on achieving more,working more,having more etc and things like being full time mothers are seen as unproductive,lazy or “backwards and old fashioned” or that the women just want to bludge and be provided for financially etc.
I’m not a mother but that’s just what I perceive as a general view.

**If you were a mother (and knew a whole lot of stay-at-home-mothers), you’d see things differently. There are a lot of SAHMs in the US. Some are SAHMs of necessity (they’d have to PAY to work), but there’s also the middle class and upper middle class SAHM. In places like the US Northeast, SAHMs are a natural part of the professional class economic ecosystem. In that environment, it is extraordinarily difficult to have two “big” professional jobs and a normal family life because the work and commute times are so huge for “big” jobs. The most workable and sane combination is one big job plus at most one part-time job, to keep an orderly and sane home life, to get the kids to activities, to make sure that if the kids are out of school sick for a week each, that it’s OK, and (when there’s a disabled child) to manage the school bureaucracy. These days schools demand a lot from parents, especially good schools–it’s nothing like when I was a kid.

In fact, I’d argue that the contemporary middle class and upper middle class SAHM is actually part of the “success” system in the US, just as much as SAHMs are part of that system in places like Japan, where mothers are expected to devote themselves heart and soul to the academic success of their children.**

Also things like dance,foreign language learning or other more “feminine” things are not held at the same worth/esteem in schools such as other subjects like maths or science.
Sometimes it’s hard to be feminine and it’s probably more easier/welcomed in other places like China,Russia etc.

I think (especially online and from a certain kind of usually young male poster) one encounters a lot of contempt for non-STEM subjects, i.e. Western Civilization. It’s kind of a sour grapes thing, I think–I don’t know Shakespeare or Russian, therefore Shakespeare or Russian must not be important.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I’ve lived in Russia (granted it was 18-21 years ago) and yeah, that’s right.

I am not totally up on the new Russia (but I stay in touch) and I think that Russian women (and probably a lot of Eastern European women can be visually very deceptive. On the one hand, they are scrupulous about dress and make up. On the other hand, they are used to doing it ALL. And when I say all, I mean ALL. When I was there, most families I knew were literally growing every single potato they ate over the winter–and they ate potatoes just about every day.

My husband is Eastern European born and I’ve mentioned to him the US and Anglo-Saxon country stereotype of Eastern European women as being feminine. He found that idea absolutely hilarious. He said he thinks of American women as being much more soft and feminine. The Eastern European woman (while she may look feminine to the American eye in dress and style), is made of steel.

I am less familiar with China, but from what I hear, there may be a similar optical illusion at work–clothes and dress that register as “feminine” on Westerners, while the personalities are tough as nails.

You realize Russian women outnumber the men like 3 to 1 right? Id be tough as nails too if I was a woman one and in that situation.

 

[Xantippe]

“Is engineering destined to remain a man’s world? Not everywhere. In China, 40% of engineers are women and in the USSR of the 1980s, women accounted for 58% of the engineering workforce.”

paristechreview.com/2010/09/29/why-more-women-engineers/

 

[Xantippe]

You realize Russian women outnumber the men like 3 to 1 right? Id be tough as nails too if I was a woman one and in that situation.

At least back in the 90s, I think it definitely contributed to how “feminine” women acted in public.

There was ferocious competition for functional men.

 

[eightydeuce82]

I think people forget after WWII Russia has a serious lack of men…do to you guessed it Stalin’s mass slaughter of his own people during the war. So many men died during this conflict it is still felt in that country.

 

[SusanneT]

Or femininity in general and both females and males can answer their perspective.
From my view,it seems that cultures like US,Australia etc don’t value femininity enough and the focus is always on achieving more,working more,having more etc and things like being full time mothers are seen as unproductive,lazy or “backwards and old fashioned” or that the women just want to bludge and be provided for financially etc.
I’m not a mother but that’s just what I perceive as a general view.
Also things like dance,foreign language learning or other more “feminine” things are not held at the same worth/esteem in schools such as other subjects like maths or science.
Sometimes it’s hard to be feminine and it’s probably more easier/welcomed in other places like China,Russia etc.

I’m not sure that China, Russia etc provide the model of femininity we should aspire to but I totally agree with you about the undervaluing of femininity and God’s design for women in western cultures.

To me it means embracing God’s design for us as women, at least trying to follow the example set by Our Lady, in following the path of modesty, purity before and chastity within marriage and both embracing and prioritising our roles as wives and mothers.

 

[Kelfa28]

Or femininity in general and both females and males can answer their perspective.
From my view,it seems that cultures like US,Australia etc don’t value femininity enough and the focus is always on achieving more,working more,having more etc and things like being full time mothers are seen as unproductive,lazy or “backwards and old fashioned” or that the women just want to bludge and be provided for financially etc.
I’m not a mother but that’s just what I perceive as a general view.
Also things like dance,foreign language learning or other more “feminine” things are not held at the same worth/esteem in schools such as other subjects like maths or science.
Sometimes it’s hard to be feminine and it’s probably more easier/welcomed in other places like China,Russia etc.

I’ve done all of the above.

I’ve worked in very male dominated fields (EMS and the military), I was a very serious ballet dancer throughout my teen years into my very early twenties, I’ve been a stay at home mom and I’m currently earning a degree in a science related field.

There is no black and white line.
Ballet dancing, for women, is specifically designed to give an overly feminine impression.
In contrast…if you’ve actually watch male ballet dancers…they dance to give an exaggerated masculine impression.
In countries like Russia…male ballet dancers are/were viewed similarly to how we view football players…extremely masculine.

I think it’s interesting that people still think that being a stay at home mother is considered lazy.
I think we see hints of that opinion in the far left liberal view points…but it’s usually shot down if ever made public.
Being a mom has been the hardest job I’ve had so far…and I’ve been through basic training.

I think femininity is expressed best within cultures and countries that have welcomed and embraced Christianity as a whole. True Christians understand what being a female is…whether she works, is a mom, is married or single or any combination of these examples.
This is why I believe places like China don’t understand what it means to be feminine.
I would never want to live in a country that squashes motherhood and physically limits family size to either one or two children and that places such an emphasis on having only sons.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think it is sad that we have gotten to a point where SAHMS are put on the defensive and feel they need to justify their life choices in some pragmatic manner such as “if I went to work all the money would just go to daycare” or “I need to be involved in my children’s schooling” or whatever, and I certainly find the idea that SAHMS are “lazy” to be ridiculous.

Of course, I also find it sad that, at least in conservative Christian circles, so many think the only justification for a mother working for pay is sheer economic necessity of the “if she doesn’t work they’ll starve” variety. I have seen debates on CAF about whether it is justifiable for a mother to work to earn college tuition for their children, and more traditional types thunder that “no one is OWED a college education”, or perhaps bring up the supposedly uneducated, illiterate unwashed masses in a developing country and conclude that college is a luxury, not a necessity.

So, I can see why some “working mothers” would go on the offensive and denigrate SAHMS.

However, being feminine, at least in the Catholic sense, is NOT just about being a wife and mother. Although many fundamentalist Protestant denominations seem to hold this view. However, unless they hail from some ultra-conservative Christian sect like the Duggars (and not even they actually married their girls off at puberty, but they were expected to help raise the younger kids), most women spend many years NOT filling this traditional role, as marriage ages are around 28 years old, and most women do not go directly from their parents’ home to that of their husbands.

Now, considering the many different types of women declared to be Saints by the Catholic Church, I do not think the “wife and mother” role is the only aspect of Catholic feminine ideals. Now, I realize that many, if not most female saints are martyrs and nuns, but not all of them, and I find it amazing how different many of them were. St. Teresa of Calcutta was VERY different from St. Teresa of Avila. St. Catherine of Siena was neither a wife, mother, OR nun, even though some CAF people seem to think ALL women are destined for one of these vocations. Yet, she became not just a saint, but one of the patron saints of Italy, a Doctor of the Church, etc.

I find it really interesting that St. Catherine not only presumed to lecture the Pope about leaving Avignon and returning to Rome, but also defied her parents’ wishes that she marry, though she did not actually become a nun either, but a lay Dominican. Although I’ve noticed many conservative Catholics love to point to female saints such as St. Rita of Cascia, or St. Monica the mother of St. Augustine, as models of feminine virtue for their fidelity to abusive, adulterous husbands.

And of course there are St. Joan of Arc and St. Gianna Molla, who both were definitely feminine, even though St. Joan wore armor into battlefields and St. Gianna gasp worked for pay as a pediatrician, even after becoming a mother, even though her husband was wealthy himself and she didn’t “need” the money. As I recall, both wore pants – though I do know “Sola Skirtura” is NOT Catholic doctrine.

 

[pianistclare]

Wait…when did we start equating femininity with how we educate our kids.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think it is sad that we have gotten to a point where SAHMS are put on the defensive and feel they need to justify their life choices in some pragmatic manner such as “if I went to work all the money would just go to daycare” or “I need to be involved in my children’s schooling” or whatever, and I certainly find the idea that SAHMS are “lazy” to be ridiculous.

Of course, I also find it sad that, at least in conservative Christian circles, so many think the only justification for a mother working for pay is sheer economic necessity of the “if she doesn’t work they’ll starve” variety. I have seen debates on CAF about whether it is justifiable for a mother to work to earn college tuition for their children, and more traditional types thunder that “no one is OWED a college education”, or perhaps bring up the supposedly uneducated, illiterate unwashed masses in a developing country and conclude that college is a luxury, not a necessity.

So, I can see why some “working mothers” would go on the offensive and denigrate SAHMS.

However, being feminine, at least in the Catholic sense, is NOT just about being a wife and mother. Although many fundamentalist Protestant denominations seem to hold this view. However, unless they hail from some ultra-conservative Christian sect like the Duggars (and not even they actually married their girls off at puberty, but they were expected to help raise the younger kids), most women spend many years NOT filling this traditional role, as marriage ages are around 28 years old, and most women do not go directly from their parents’ home to that of their husbands.

Now, considering the many different types of women declared to be Saints by the Catholic Church, I do not think the “wife and mother” role is the only aspect of Catholic feminine ideals. Now, I realize that many, if not most female saints are martyrs and nuns, but not all of them, and I find it amazing how different many of them were. St. Teresa of Calcutta was VERY different from St. Teresa of Avila. St. Catherine of Siena was neither a wife, mother, OR nun, even though some CAF people seem to think ALL women are destined for one of these vocations. Yet, she became not just a saint, but one of the patron saints of Italy, a Doctor of the Church, etc.

I find it really interesting that St. Catherine not only presumed to lecture the Pope about leaving Avignon and returning to Rome, but also defied her parents’ wishes that she marry, though she did not actually become a nun either, but a lay Dominican. Although I’ve noticed many conservative Catholics love to point to female saints such as St. Rita of Cascia, or St. Monica the mother of St. Augustine, as models of feminine virtue for their fidelity to abusive, adulterous husbands.

And of course there are St. Joan of Arc and St. Gianna Molla, who both were definitely feminine, even though St. Joan wore armor into battlefields and St. Gianna gasp worked for pay as a pediatrician, even after becoming a mother, even though her husband was wealthy himself and she didn’t “need” the money. As I recall, both wore pants – though I do know “Sola Skirtura” is NOT Catholic doctrine.

Have you heard of the daughters at home movement? Daughters are not supposed to be financially independent but to depend on their fathers and then their husbands for support. I think this is part of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. College education for women, especially in fields that impart skill, such as law, medicine or engineering are considered sinful since it equips women to be competitive with men in the job market which is a big no no. The above view is not officially taught by the Catholic church but a lot of Catholic men also subscribe to this view.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Have you heard of the daughters at home movement? Daughters are not supposed to be financially independent but to depend on their fathers and then their husbands for support. I think this is part of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. College education for women, especially in fields that impart skill, such as law, medicine or engineering are considered sinful since it equips women to be competitive with men in the job market which is a big no no. The above view is not officially taught by the Catholic church but a lot of Catholic men also subscribe to this view.

I didn’t know the movement had that particular name but certainly, it seems many Christians subscribe to it, or at least hold it up at as an ideal even if they concede it is difficult to accomplish in “today’s sinful secular society”. I’m not sure if the Duggars subscribe to that or not, though I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. On the other hand, they don’t seem to find college education to be important for their sons either (although many have seen this as inconsistent, even hypocritical, because Jim Bob and Michelle themselves both DID go to college, although they did marry very young).

It seems the Living Wage movement can be tinged with this kind of traditionalist mindset, that male workers should be paid a “living wage” that is enough to support a wife and family, so that women won’t “have” to work. Essentially, stating the “gender gap” where wage is concerned should be even MORE pronounced because men should be the only ones working for pay in an ideal world.