What does Catholic/Christian femininity mean to you?

[Xantippe]

I think it is sad that we have gotten to a point where SAHMS are put on the defensive and feel they need to justify their life choices in some pragmatic manner such as “if I went to work all the money would just go to daycare” or “I need to be involved in my children’s schooling” or whatever, and I certainly find the idea that SAHMS are “lazy” to be ridiculous.

School today is really HARD and schools demand so much of families. I honestly don’t know how two career families with school children manage. We just barely manage our school responsibilities with two big kids, a toddler, me home, and my husband working an academic job that is (as these things go) relatively flexible for the pay. I feel we’re always just two steps ahead of some major academic disaster and with three kids, I feel like I just barely know enough about what’s going on at school. (And thank goodness we have online grade records that are very easy to check.)

So, I can see why some “working mothers” would go on the offensive and denigrate SAHMS.

**I rarely see working mothers denigrating SAHMs. There’s a great deal of traffic between the categories, with SAHMs turning into working mothers and working mothers turning into SAHMS. It’s also often difficult to tell which is which, given part-time work.

The harshest language tends to come from men (generally men that are either single or fathers that are not that involved with their kids) that honestly don’t know a lot about family life or children. **

However, being feminine, at least in the Catholic sense, is NOT just about being a wife and mother. Although many fundamentalist Protestant denominations seem to hold this view.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

Have you heard of the daughters at home movement? Daughters are not supposed to be financially independent but to depend on their fathers and then their husbands for support. I think this is part of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. College education for women, especially in fields that impart skill, such as law, medicine or engineering are considered sinful since it equips women to be competitive with men in the job market which is a big no no. The above view is not officially taught by the Catholic church but a lot of Catholic men also subscribe to this view.

I’ve said this a number of times, but I don’t want my kids to go straight from our house to their marital home.

These days, I think it’s very important for adult children to have at least a year or so of experience of independent living before getting married. I would never want my daughters to marry a man that had never been responsible for his own home, and I would never want my son to marry a woman that had never supported herself and never had to pay her own bills.

It’s very important for adults to understand well before they get married that wages have to be earned, groceries have to be bought and paid for, meals have to be made, dishes have to be washed, clothes have to be laundered and put away, rooms have to be cleaned, cars have to be maintained, and bills have to be paid.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’ve said this a number of times, but I don’t want my kids to go straight from our house to their marital home.

These days, I think it’s very important for adult children to have at least a year or so of experience of independent living before getting married. I would never want my daughters to marry a man that had never been responsible for his own home, and I would never want my son to marry a woman that had never supported herself and never had to pay her own bills.

It’s very important for adults to understand well before they get married that wages have to be earned, groceries have to be bought and paid for, meals have to be made, dishes have to be washed, clothes have to be laundered and put away, rooms have to be cleaned, cars have to be maintained, and bills have to be paid.

True. Being responsible is part and parcel of being an adult. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians equate being a woman with being a perpetual minor and has to have a male authority over her at all times of her life.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

School today is really HARD and schools demand so much of families. I honestly don’t know how two career families with school children manage.

I understand, but I assume (based on your very reasonable posts in most matters) that you are not stating that it is therefore impossible for two career families with school children can “manage” their education, and all such families are guilty of neglecting their children’s education.

Also, one aspect of the Catholic Church that I’ve always found appealing is that, unlike many Protestant churches, She incorporates many different cultures and living situations. What applies to the US Northeast middle class suburban subculture that you describe, does not apply to all subcultures in all the world, or even the US - in many US Catholic subcultures, sending children to a “godless government school” at all is anathema, homeschooling is considered the ideal, even Catholic schooling is often rejected as either too expensive (especially if a mother has to gasp work to earn the money), suspected of being too “liberal”.

I’ve said this a number of times, but I don’t want my kids to go straight from our house to their marital home.

These days, I think it’s very important for adult children to have at least a year or so of experience of independent living before getting married. I would never want my daughters to marry a man that had never been responsible for his own home, and I would never want my son to marry a woman that had never supported herself and never had to pay her own bills.

It’s very important for adults to understand well before they get married that wages have to be earned, groceries have to be bought and paid for, meals have to be made, dishes have to be washed, clothes have to be laundered and put away, rooms have to be cleaned, cars have to be maintained, and bills have to be paid.

My mother certainly would agree with this. She left home after graduating high school, moved away for junior college, then started working. She married “late” for her time at age 28, ironically “average” now. She certainly spent many years being independent before she got married.

I also agree that in the real world, it’s not easy to divide mothers neatly into “stay at home” and “working” mother categories. My own mother was a SAHM for a minority of her mothering career, but then she started working various part-time odd jobs to help make ends meet. Most of the time she was home when school let out, but not always. But she spent more time at home than the parents of most of my peers.

I also know of cases in which working mothers cut back their hours deciding they need to spend more time with their kids, and cases where SAHMS decided to return to the workplace NOT just for financial reasons, but because they just couldn’t function without more regular interaction with adults their age, or felt they were denying a calling to work for more than just the well-being of their own families. Even though traditionalists often use the canard of “no one ever said on their deathbeds that they should have spent more time at the office!”

 

[Xantippe]

True. Being responsible is part and parcel of being an adult. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians equate being a woman with being a perpetual minor and has to have a male authority over her at all times of her life.

That’s fortunately a minority view, but it is a vocal one.

It is an interesting question–why do you trust a woman to care for a bunch of children by herself or to have a joint checking account with you or signing privileges on your credit card if she herself is essentially a child? Or, for that matter, how can a person that is essentially a child validly consent to marriage?

 

[Sarcelle]

That’s fortunately a minority view, but it is a vocal one.

It is an interesting question–why do you trust a woman to care for a bunch of children by herself or to have a joint checking account with you or signing privileges on your credit card if she herself is essentially a child? Or, for that matter, how can a person that is essentially a child validly consent to marriage?

Ahh, but you see it is not the woman who is giving her consent for the marriage per se but her father. This is why the father gives away his daughter during the wedding ceremony. I have met all kinds of Christians who have given this explanation as to why the father gives away his daughter.

This is also why I am puzzled why even Catholic weddings have the father escorting his daughter down the aisle, since this is not really a part of the Catholic wedding ceremony.

 

[Xantippe]

I understand, but I assume (based on your very reasonable posts in most matters) that you are not stating that it is therefore impossible for two career families with school children can “manage” their education, and all such families are guilty of neglecting their children’s education.

**I read a lot of blogs (including from fairly secular families) talking about what it’s like dealing with the demands of “good” school districts and the generally horrible middle school years. One of the things that often happens is that mom’s career tends to flatline.

Kitchen Table Math is one of my favorites. You can’t really tell from the current posts (the main blogger has graduated from that era), but if you read the archives forward, starting from around 2005 (I think), you get a pretty good taste of what middle class parenting is. Catherine Johnson (the main blogger for KTM) is a co-author of Temple Grandin and middle school really threw her for a loop.

I also really like Katharine Beals, author of the book “Raising a Left-Brain Child” and the blog at oilf.blogspot.com
**

I also know of cases in which working mothers cut back their hours deciding they need to spend more time with their kids, and cases where SAHMS decided to return to the workplace NOT just for financial reasons, but because they just couldn’t function without more regular interaction with adults their age, or felt they were denying a calling to work for more than just the well-being of their own families.

**Right. I was shocked when one of the secular career commenter moms from one of my favorite parenting blogs cut back or quit (not quite sure which) when her kids hit middle school age, but things really do get pretty nuts around then. **

 

[ToeInTheWater]

True. Being responsible is part and parcel of being an adult. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians equate being a woman with being a perpetual minor and has to have a male authority over her at all times of her life.

That’s fortunately a minority view, but it is a vocal one.

It is an interesting question–why do you trust a woman to care for a bunch of children by herself or to have a joint checking account with you or signing privileges on your credit card if she herself is essentially a child? Or, for that matter, how can a person that is essentially a child validly consent to marriage?

Although Sarcelle has pointed out this “woman as a child” attitude IS held by some Catholic men, I have noted that it is much more prevalent in conservative Protestant circles. I wonder if part of that is because the Church DOES have examples of holy women who certainly were NOT perpetual minors. The Virgin Mary did not ask either her father or her husband’s permission before giving her Fiat.

As for the question of a “joint checking account” or “signing privileges”, I suppose traditionalist men assume this is just a formality for convenience in this secular world, and that their ideal submissive wives would always ask their permission before making any financial decisions.

As for validly consenting to marriage, I think this is harder to rebut, unless one simply argues from antiquity to point out that historically, women often WERE married off very young, or to point to Church canonical laws stating women can marry at age 14, etc. I’ve seen some “outliers” even supporting the marriage of young women to much older men using such arguments, usually throwing in the little “t” tradition about Joseph being an old man when married to Mary, etc.

 

[heidi_storage]

There’s no thirty-second response to this, but here is a nice collection of Bible verses about women. God’s Word should inform our view of femininity.

openbible.info/topics/womanhood

 

[SWolf]

Ahh, but you see it is not the woman who is giving her consent for the marriage per se but her father. This is why the father gives away his daughter during the wedding ceremony. I have met all kinds of Christians who have given this explanation as to why the father gives away his daughter.

I would argue that’s you might be reading it the wrong way.

I would argue it’s more of a handing off of responsibility. He was tasked when she was single to protect and care for her. Now that responsibility belongs primarily to the husband. She and her husband are breaking old familial bonds and starting a new family together.

In most modern cases he asks for her father’s blessing, which is not nearly as strong as permission. Most guys I know would love the tradition to end, but in most cases it’s the woman who insists. Personally, my wife was adamant I got her Father’s blessing, and it was a logistical nightmare to make it happen.

Not everyone’s cup of tea, and certainly not required. Still, even in these modern times it resonates with countless women, so there’s a good chance it’s more than tradition keeping these customs alive.

This is also why I am puzzled why even Catholic weddings have the father escorting his daughter down the aisle, since this is not really a part of the Catholic wedding ceremony.

It’s because she adores her father, who loved and protected her all those years. The last time he does it is walking her to her husband. Again, it’s usually the woman who insists on keeping the tradition.

 

[Xantippe]

Although Sarcelle has pointed out this “woman as a child” attitude IS held by some Catholic men, I have noted that it is much more prevalent in conservative Protestant circles.

**But not, fortunately, universal, or even common.
**

As for validly consenting to marriage, I think this is harder to rebut, unless one simply argues from antiquity to point out that historically, women often WERE married off very young, or to point to Church canonical laws stating women can marry at age 14, etc. I’ve seen some “outliers” even supporting the marriage of young women to much older men using such arguments, usually throwing in the little “t” tradition about Joseph being an old man when married to Mary, etc.

Eh, a sinless woman can successfully get married in her mid-teens to a saintly man that’s been ordered by God to marry her and together they successfully raise a single sinless child with lots of angelic guidance at key decision points, and that’s an argument for mid-teenage marriage for everybody.

Oh, where to begin!

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Have you heard of the daughters at home movement? Daughters are not supposed to be financially independent but to depend on their fathers and then their husbands for support. I think this is part of the Christian Reconstructionist movement. College education for women, especially in fields that impart skill, such as law, medicine or engineering are considered sinful since it equips women to be competitive with men in the job market which is a big no no. The above view is not officially taught by the Catholic church but a lot of Catholic men also subscribe to this view.

Do many Catholic men subscribe to this view in real life? Or just some pockets deep in the internet?

My parents were married in 1966, they both worked. My mom worked until she was well into her pregnancy with me. Nobody thought my parents were strange. That’s how most people did it back then.

 

[Xantippe]

Do many Catholic men subscribe to this view in real life? Or just some pockets deep in the internet?

My parents were married in 1966, they both worked. My mom worked until she was well into her pregnancy with me. Nobody thought my parents were strange. That’s how most people did it back then.

Right.

I’m personally thrilled with the idea of my daughters getting off the family dole, as are most parents.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Ahh, but you see it is not the woman who is giving her consent for the marriage per se but her father. This is why the father gives away his daughter during the wedding ceremony. I have met all kinds of Christians who have given this explanation as to why the father gives away his daughter.

This is also why I am puzzled why even Catholic weddings have the father escorting his daughter down the aisle, since this is not really a part of the Catholic wedding ceremony.

In a Catholic wedding, in the US it is common for Dad to escort bride down the aisle. BUT the priest does not ask “who gives this woman to be married to this man” in a Catholic wedding.

Husband and Wife BOTH consent, or else marriage is not valid.

In other countries, it is common for both sets of parents to escort each child to the altar.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I would argue that’s you might be reading it the wrong way.

I would argue it’s more of a handing off of responsibility. He was tasked when she was single to protect and care for her. Now that responsibility belongs primarily to the husband. She and her husband are breaking old familial bonds and starting a new family together.

But why does the woman need ANYONE to “protect and care for her”? While she is a CHILD, of course, but men need such care when they are children as well. But you state they need such “protection” when they are single. So, what if a single woman has a successful career and is independently wealthy, perhaps even wealthy enough to hire servants and bodyguards. Does the father of such a woman still have a duty to “protect and care” for her?

Most women I know do NOT see their husbands primarily as “protectors” or “caregivers” who took over their father’s role. Even women who are married to older men, do not confuse a parental role, with a spousal one.

It’s because she adores her father, who loved and protected her all those years. The last time he does it is walking her to her husband. Again, it’s usually the woman who insists on keeping the tradition.

This may be the case for women who actually do adore their fathers, but unfortunately, this is not the case for everyone. It wasn’t true for my own mother. Her father did show up for the marriage ceremony, but NOT to walk her down the aisle. I don’t know if my mother actively told him not to, or if he didn’t even dare ask, considering that he had abandoned his whole family years before.

 

[Xantippe]

In other countries, it is common for both sets of parents to escort each child to the altar.

I believe that is also traditional for Jewish weddings.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think most of time, fathers who walk their daughters down the aisle are not doing so to demonstrate some kind of patriarchal “ownership” of the daughter that they are “transferring” to her husband.

However, once in a while we get a peek into subcultures where daughters ARE seen as property, such as the Duggars (though this was much more apparent in the coverage of the wedding of Jill, the first daughter to marry, than the wedding of Jessa, where it seemed the show made an effort to de-emphasize the more extreme aspects of the Duggars’ beliefs.)

But the Duggars are one family where prospective suitors need the father’s permission not even to marry his daughter, but even to “court” her in the first place! It’s actually pretty clear that the father is essentially choosing the daughters’ mates for them, both Jill and Jessa had their suitors pre-screened by Jim Bob.

Although they aren’t technically in arranged marriages, many CAF posters have opined that their marriages may very well be found null if brought before a Catholic marriage tribunal.

 

[SWolf]

But why does the woman need ANYONE to “protect and care for her”? While she is a CHILD, of course, but men need such care when they are children as well. But you state they need such “protection” when they are single.

Actually, no I didn’t. I know many women in their twenties and independent who still look at their father as their guardian and protector, their solid oak they know they can cry when they feel the world falling apart. There is nothing wrong or childish about this.

Many fathers have a wonderful custom of going on a ‘date’ with their daughters to show them how a man should treat them, and what kind of man to look for.

There are many aspects of Father/Daughter dynamics that get short thrift by thinking of it as “I am a strong and independent woman, and I don’t need my Father to look after and protect me anymore.”

So, what if a single woman has a successful career and is independently wealthy, perhaps even wealthy enough to hire servants and bodyguards. Does the father of such a woman still have a duty to “protect and care” for her?

Of course. He’s her father.

Most women I know do NOT see their husbands primarily as “protectors” or “caregivers” who took over their father’s role. Even women who are married to older men, do not confuse a parental role, with a spousal one.

There seems to be some confusion here. Of course they don’t see it as a parental role. You can look to someone to protect and care for you without it being a parent/child dynamic.

For example: Women are incapacitated for a long period of time due to pregnancy and childbirth. Looking to your husband to protect you during that time hardly constitutes childishness.

Another example if a larger, stronger man tries to assault you: Looking to your husband to protect you during that time also hardly constitutes childishness.

This may be the case for women who actually do adore their fathers, but unfortunately, this is not the case for everyone. It wasn’t true for my own mother. Her father did show up for the marriage ceremony, but NOT to walk her down the aisle. I don’t know if my mother actively told him not to, or if he didn’t even dare ask, considering that he had abandoned his whole family years before.

Absolutely. I said it was not for everyone and there is no obligation to keep the custom.

 

[Sarcelle]

Actually, no I didn’t. I know many women in their twenties and independent who still look at their father as their guardian and protector, their solid oak they know they can cry when they feel the world falling apart. There is nothing wrong or childish about this.

Many fathers have a wonderful custom of going on a ‘date’ with their daughters to show them how a man should treat them, and what kind of man to look for.

There are many aspects of Father/Daughter dynamics that get short thrift by thinking of it as “I am a strong and independent woman, and I don’t need my Father to look after and protect me anymore.”

Of course. He’s her father.

There seems to be some confusion here. Of course they don’t see it as a parental role. You can look to someone to protect and care for you without it being a parent/child dynamic.

For example: Women are incapacitated for a long period of time due to pregnancy and childbirth. Looking to your husband to protect you during that time hardly constitutes childishness.

Another example if a larger, stronger man tries to assault you: Looking to your husband to protect you during that time also hardly constitutes childishness.

Absolutely. I said it was not for everyone and there is no obligation to keep the custom.

I keep in touch with my Dad at least once a week. He is the reason why I am an engineer today. It’s because he is one too. However whenever we talk to each other over the phone, we talk railroads.

With my mom, we talk about different things, such as cooking, jewelry, flower gardening etc. I would be the last person to downplay the influence and necessity of fathers. I am what am today because of my father.

 

[Book_Worm]

Both Sarcelle and SWolf described the role of a father in his daughter’s life very beautifully.

DH supported DD in everything she did in her life. Walking her down the aisle symbolized his support for the important step she was taking in marrying her DH. His (and my) support for both of them still continues.