What does Catholic mean!

[RobHom]

Jordan,

Do you really think that Catholics would disagree with this statement? Do you really believe that Catholics believe that we should stick to the world and its sin as opposed to following Jesus?

You have much to learn about Catholics and their beliefs.

AMEN, BROTHER!!

 

[dotsonjo]

This is for JoeyWarren

Hey, you are treading in very dangerous waters with statements like that. I am not dodging your question but warning you about the questions you are asking. I dont know what your faith is but I do know that those who are Christian, in the sense of those who are saved by grace and grace alone, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and also the word being Christ since the Bible, in a very real way, directs all things To Christ and gives Glory to the Father. John 1:1 makes all these statements. I understand this to be without fault and completely true. I will not answer your question because that is a question you should find. I dont need to justify what is the Truth…for the Truth stands on its own without my work, thoughts or intentions. However, if there is doubt within yourself or whatever, you should seek the answers out for yourself for I am not the one to reveal Truths about the Bible. The Truths need no help from me nor does HE need me to reveal HIMSELF. So I challenge you to find these answers in HIS WORD for it is the ONLY Truth that we have!!

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I just want clarification exactly what the Catholic faith believes…what does it mean to be Catholic…who do you pray to what is the value of Saints, Mary…and so on i want the entire take on it…please people commit yourselves to a complete answer with Biblical backing…for we cannot say what we want to say, we must say what the LORD CHRIST has taught us!

It means to be a member of the Church, the institution that Jesus founded to promote His ideas (OK, for much deeper reasons as well, but also to promote His ideas). Not one of the groups that split from it, or a group that took Jesus’s ideas and decided to go it alone.

What’s our main evidence that the Church is in fact the one Jesus founded? Well of course a major strand is Biblical. The New Testament is pretty clear that Jesus had a concept of an institution or at least structured movement, with an inner leadership, which would carry on. The Early Chrisitans also seem to have thought of themsleves as members of an organisation, with a leader and some sort of hierachy.

These are not outrageous claims. That Christianity constituted an organisation, that it had leaders, that the founder was also the man who was the main intellectual inspiration and regarded as divine by His followers. The average person won’t need much persuading of that. The historical record also backs it up.

 

[dotsonjo]

Pax
…well, from what I have gathered, Catholics do disagree with that statement. My one and only response to that is because you have surrounded yourself with idols ie the church, mary, saints, traditions, etc. These things dont get you to heaven nor do they reveal Christ. Christ reveals himself. Christ is all you need!
When I make a statement like ‘abandon the world and its sin, pick up your cross and follow CHRIST’, I mean specifically abandoning those things we dont need for they have become idols of lies and deciet in our lives.

1 The Church is the body of Christ. All Christians across the board, regardless of Catholic or Protestant, must recognize that we are all one body of Christ. Catholic is not the right way, but neither is the Protestant way. The only way is Christ, yet I see these people still cling to the Labels (“oh only catholic is the way”, or “no only protestant is the way”) as if it really matters. You foolish foolish people, you have cluttered up the Faith.

1. The only Salvation come from CHRIST. Everything else is trivial in the sense that it can no more achieve salvation than you or I can through our deeds.
2. CHRIST is all we will ever need without arguement. We dont need mary or her to speak on our behalf nor the saints for that matter, nor the Church…CHRIST is our everything. HE is our **literal **CHURCH, SALVATION, AND THE SOURCE THAT SUSTAINS US

 

[Pax]

This is in response to **davidarlette ** AND MOST OTHERS I ASSUME

Where I come into disagreement is when Christians, all over the spectrum of Faith, compromise CHRIST. That is my “beef” if you will. I also disagree with your statement that those three things that you have listed, can ever work in HARMONY. How can the heads of Church work in perfect harmony with the BIBLE. The Bible is the WORD of our LORD. Much like GOD chose all the leaders of the world, he chose those people who are in any position of authority but in no way does he mean that they work in Perfect Harmony with Scripture because if you look at Romans 3:9, that states clearly and without any loop holes that there is no one good…that no one seeks after the LORD and that all fall short of the Glory of Christ.
…
…

You clearly misunderstand Paul in Romans 3:9.

There are no quotes in the bible stating that man is basically evil. There are, however, numerous passages that point out the sinfulness and weakness of man, but none of them even implicitly states that man is basically evil. There are, however, numerous examples that demonstrate both explicitly and implicitly that man is basically good. The assumption that man is basically evil is non-biblical. Instead man is basically good but suffers from a fallen nature.

The book of Romans as quoted above is the chief source for defending the idea that man is basically evil. Such an interpretation of these verses is clearly problematic for the following reasons:

1. In Romans 3:9-12, Paul says that all are under the power of sin. This is a reference to the “Fall” and the burden of original sin. Paul is speaking of Jews and gentiles as equal in their damaged state of inheritance, and that the Jews need grace and redemption just as much as the gentiles. All of mankind needs redemption, and man is prone to sin, but this fact does not mean that man is basically evil.
2. In Romans 3:9-12, Paul is quoting from Psalm 14:1-5. Paul makes reference to the Psalm by saying, “as it is written,” and he would not have made that remark or quoted so much of the passage word for word, if he did not intend for us to look to the psalm in order to place his own statements within the Old Testament context. The context of Psalm 14 is made clear in the first verse which states, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.” Then in verse four and five the psalm reads, “Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord? There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.” Psalm 14 clearly distinguishes between the evil doers (i.e. the fool that says there is no God) and “my people”….”the generation of the righteous.” This is in harmony with all of the scriptures that state that man is basically good.
3. Romans 3:22-23 and Romans 11:32 merely reiterate what Paul speaks of in reference to Psalm 14. While these verses clearly show that men are under the burden of original sin and that men commit personal sin, they do not state either explicitly or implicitly that man is basically evil.
4. Scripture does not contradict itself. If the Book of Romans or any other book of scripture actually indicated that man was basically evil, then those passages would “clearly” and “directly” contradict Genesis 1:26, Genesis 1:31, Psalm 139:13-15, Proverbs 12:2, Matt 12:35, Luke 1:6, Luke 23:50, Mark 6:20, Acts 7:20, and 1 Tim 4:4.

Please reconsider your position. God gives protection to the Church when the Church teaches authoritatively on matters of faith and morals. This does not mean that the members of the Church, including the leadership, will be free of sin. You seem to be confusing the two.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Likewise, scripture makes it clear that the leadership does speak in harmony with the scriptures when the Church is making authoritative teachings. Please consider the following:

Jesus tells the apostles “He who hears you hears me”

1 John 4:6
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Eph 3:10
so that **through the church **the wisdom of God in its rich variety might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

1Tim 3:15 Paul says that “the church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Scripture doesn’t even make that claim for itself.

5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior.

Christ is the head of the body which he established as his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Matt 18:17
If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders[the bishops] and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will given an account.

I hope this helps.

 

[Bwavenit]

Pax
3. CHRIST is all we will ever need without arguement. We dont need mary or her to speak on our behalf **nor the saints **for that matter, nor the Church…CHRIST is our everything. HE is our **literal **CHURCH, SALVATION, AND THE SOURCE THAT SUSTAINS US

Dang. looks like i’m going to have to rewite the book of Revalations
my bible has them doing a whole lot more.I wonder why?

 

[Pax]

Pax
…well, from what I have gathered, Catholics do disagree with that statement. My one and only response to that is because you have surrounded yourself with idols ie the church, mary, saints, traditions, etc. These things dont get you to heaven nor do they reveal Christ. Christ reveals himself. Christ is all you need!
When I make a statement like ‘abandon the world and its sin, pick up your cross and follow CHRIST’, I mean specifically abandoning those things we dont need for they have become idols of lies and deciet in our lives.

1 The Church is the body of Christ. All Christians across the board, regardless of Catholic or Protestant, must recognize that we are all one body of Christ. Catholic is not the right way, but neither is the Protestant way. The only way is Christ, yet I see these people still cling to the Labels (“oh only catholic is the way”, or “no only protestant is the way”) as if it really matters. You foolish foolish people, you have cluttered up the Faith.

1. The only Salvation come from CHRIST. Everything else is trivial in the sense that it can no more achieve salvation than you or I can through our deeds.
2. CHRIST is all we will ever need without arguement. We dont need mary or her to speak on our behalf nor the saints for that matter, nor the Church…CHRIST is our everything. HE is our **literal **CHURCH, SALVATION, AND THE SOURCE THAT SUSTAINS US

Please take no offense in what I am about to say.

Your thinking is very fuzzy and illogical. Likewise, you look to scripture only to contradict yourself.

You stated that the church is an idol. Then you went to scripture and said that the church is the body of Christ. This is a serious contradiction.

Likewise, you contend that the Catholic Church is wrong although you apparently know little about what Catholics believe and what the Church actually teaches. Likewise, you say that Protestants are wrong. Hmm…seems that you must be the one who is right and you are now your own authority.

Please be advised that we do not make idols or place anything or anyone ahead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Likewise, please do not judge our hearts in such matters. Unless you have the knowledge of God himself, you have no ability to know and thus state anything on such matters. Perhaps, asking us what we think and believe would be better.

You have over stepped the bounds of common sense, logic, scriptural understanding, and above all charity in this post. Please reconsider and take your time in learning what we believe, why we believe it, and the scriptural underpinnings that go with our beliefs. An open mind will go a long way in assisting you in this regard. If in the end if you still happen to disagree with something, it will perhaps be at least based on something more substantive than strawman attacks.

 

[mercygate]

Ok, I got crazy there for a bit. I am sorry as my excitement tends to, at moments, get the best of me! I would like to know what the role of Mary the mother of GOD is in terms of her relation to the Catholic faith as well as the individual Catholic’s relation to Her. I want to understand her place but I also want Biblical backing. Thanks to all who take the time to reply and again, I apologize for my recent outbreak.
Thanks
Jordan

You don’t need to go far afield to find out what the Catholic Church teaches about “Mary the mother of God.” If I am not mistaken, Catholic teaching and Lutheran teaching are the same on this. Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Baptists also concur on this dogma, since it was defined at the Third Ecumenical Council in Ephesus (351 A.D.). The first four councils are all accepted by mainline protestants.

 

[Pax]

Pax
…well, from what I have gathered, Catholics do disagree with that statement. My one and only response to that is because you have surrounded yourself with idols ie the church, mary, saints, traditions, etc. These things dont get you to heaven nor do they reveal Christ. Christ reveals himself. Christ is all you need!
…
…

I’ve already addressed most of this in prior posts and you have not supplied any substantive refutations to anything that I or any other Catholic has stated on this tread. I will point to one new topic that mentioned in your list and will demonstrate that you should seriously reconsider.

You mentioned traditions in your list. Moreover, you apparently claim that none of these things on your list are important or necessary. This apparently includes traditions. Well, Jordan, scripture disagrees with you.

Scripture says the following about traditions:

2Thess 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

2 Tim 2:2
and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.

1 Cor 11:2
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you.

1 Thess 2:13
We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers.

Acts 2:42
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching[traditions] and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

If this is all good enough for the apostles and those they taught then it is good enough for me.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Where I come into disagreement is when Christians, all over the spectrum of Faith, compromise CHRIST. That is my “beef” if you will. I also disagree with your statement that those three things that you have listed, can ever work in HARMONY. How can the heads of Church work in perfect harmony with the BIBLE.

The simple answer to your statement, “I also disagree with your statement that those three things that you have listed, can ever work in HARMONY,” is God’s grace. God’s grace, power and majesty allow anything to be possible. Catholics believe that God set up the Catholic Church. If that is true, would it not make sense that He would guide that Church?

After all, God guided the imperfect men who wrote the Bible.

I dont know what your faith is but I do know that those who are Christian, in the sense of those who are saved by grace and grace alone, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and also the word being Christ since the Bible, in a very real way, directs all things To Christ and gives Glory to the Father. John 1:1 makes all these statements.

If you want to get into this, I think we would need to start a thread devoted entirely to yours and the Catholic definition of a Christian. The Church teaches that there are certain requirements, and if you are interested in them, I am sure posters would happly discuss them with you.

My one and only response to that is because you have surrounded yourself with idols ie the church, mary, saints, traditions, etc. These things dont get you to heaven nor do they reveal Christ. Christ reveals himself. Christ is all you need!
When I make a statement like ‘abandon the world and its sin, pick up your cross and follow CHRIST’, I mean specifically abandoning those things we dont need for they have become idols of lies and deciet in our lives.

Dotsonjo, have you ever met a very holy person? Someone who obviously has a close connection with our Lord and keeps in touch with Him through constant prayer? I have. They inspire me to draw closer to the Lord because, by their example, they show me how very far I have to go in growing close to God.

Is it necessary for me to know holy people in order to obtain heaven? Certainly not. Will it help me in my journey there? I believe that it will.

 

[dotsonjo]

Hey,
I am done with this for a while for it has proven to not be fruitful. If you would take time to digest what has been written, you would understand. I, in fact dont contradict myself but when I speak of the Church, I speak of two churches.
Indeed one as the secular points of society and the fragments of Christianity and the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. That is not to say that there are churchs that dont have the TRUE body of CHRIST. There are certainly but we have divided ourself on needless issues. Why do we argue over Mary or the Saints or Traditions. Why do we burden our thoughts with such nonsense when they really have no berring on Salvation or more importantly, the Relationship with CHRIST. If your CHURCH places CHRIST as head and is fully submissive to what has been taught in his word, then it is a TRUE CHURCH. But those churchs that stress traditions and rituals or praying to mary or the saints, have really missed the point.
Alas, this has not become a productive conversation about CHRIST rather an argument over who is right and who is wrong. Only CHRIST is right.

 

[Stylite]

Hey,
I am done with this for a while for it has proven to not be fruitful. If you would take time to digest what has been written, you would understand. I, in fact dont contradict myself but when I speak of the Church, I speak of two churches.
Indeed one as the secular points of society and the fragments of Christianity and the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. That is not to say that there are churchs that dont have the TRUE body of CHRIST. There are certainly but we have divided ourself on needless issues. Why do we argue over Mary or the Saints or Traditions. Why do we burden our thoughts with such nonsense when they really have no berring on Salvation or more importantly, the Relationship with CHRIST. If your CHURCH places CHRIST as head and is fully submissive to what has been taught in his word, then it is a TRUE CHURCH. But those churchs that stress traditions and rituals or praying to mary or the saints, have really missed the point.
Alas, this has not become a productive conversation about CHRIST rather an argument over who is right and who is wrong. Only CHRIST is right.

Ok… I’m not getting what you wanted to discuss then. I think we were all talking about what the teachings of Christ are, but is that off-limits?

 

[Pax]

Hey,
I am done with this for a while for it has proven to not be fruitful. If you would take time to digest what has been written, you would understand. I, in fact dont contradict myself but when I speak of the Church, I speak of two churches.
Indeed one as the secular points of society and the fragments of Christianity and the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. That is not to say that there are churchs that dont have the TRUE body of CHRIST. There are certainly but we have divided ourself on needless issues. Why do we argue over Mary or the Saints or Traditions. Why do we burden our thoughts with such nonsense when they really have no berring on Salvation or more importantly, the Relationship with CHRIST. If your CHURCH places CHRIST as head and is fully submissive to what has been taught in his word, then it is a TRUE CHURCH. But those churchs that stress traditions and rituals or praying to mary or the saints, have really missed the point.
Alas, this has not become a productive conversation about CHRIST rather an argument over who is right and who is wrong. Only CHRIST is right.

You are getting frustrated because you have not substantively disproved or refuted our responses. You have not done this from scripture or logic. Believe me, I have read and digested every word you have written, and have taken a great deal of time to carefully respond using scripture as you requested in your opening posts.

Do not let your frustrations become an obstacle. If your position has merit then it will withstand the test of scrutiny. If it does not have merit it will not withstand the test. The same thing goes for our positions.

I sense that in some way we have been talking past one another because you have an incorrect view and set of assumptions concerning Catholic teaching and beliefs. You have made accusations against the faith that are accusations against things we do not believe.

If the substance of your complaint boils down to nothing more than objecting to everything that you view as “not Christ himself” then you have a problem with the truth as revealed in scripture. Scripture speaks of Mary, the saints, the Church, tradition, and numerous other things pertaining to God’s plan of salvation. We respect and incorporate the entirety of God’s word in our understandings of His plan of salvation.

I would hope that you would respect that view.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Joey Warren said: Just one question OP, where does the Bible make the claim that itself is the “Word of God”? More specificly, where does the Bible make the claim that the New Testament is the “Word of God”?

Hey, you are treading in very dangerous waters with statements like that.

How so?

I am not dodging your question but warning you about the questions you are asking.

If the answer is obvious from scripture then the answer should be fairly easy, unless of course you really cannot find this declaration and are just going on the traditions of men for this concept?

I dont know what your faith is

Roman Catholic, which by the way is the true church that Jesus established by building it upon Rock known as Peter.

but I do know that those who are Christian, in the sense of those who are saved by grace and grace alone, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and also the word being Christ since the Bible, in a very real way, directs all things To Christ and gives Glory to the Father.

I would agree that the Bible is A word of God but not THE word of God.

John 1:1 makes all these statements.

**That verse has no bearing on whether the Bible being declared in your words, THE WORD OF GOD. **

I understand this to be without fault and completely true.

Please explain how you come about this understanding and prove it from scripture.

I will not answer your question because that is a question you should find.

**I know the answer, it is thou which knoweth not. **

I dont need to justify what is the Truth…for the Truth stands on its own without my work, thoughts or intentions.

You don’t? How would you then convince an atheist of the truth then?

However, if there is doubt within yourself or whatever,

** No doubt here. I was once like you(LOST) but now I am found(Home in Rome) . I was a Protestant for 37 years living in the false religions of Protestantism (non-catholicism)**

you should seek the answers out for yourself for I am not the one to reveal Truths about the Bible.

** I already have seeked the truth and found it in it’s fullness within the Jesus given and sanctioned Roman Catholic Church. You are here for a reason, to either learn what we know or you are here to spread misinformation and misinterpretations. Which one is it?**

The Truths need no help from me nor does HE need me to reveal HIMSELF. So I challenge you to find these answers in HIS WORD for it is the ONLY Truth that we have!!

Evidently your version of the truth does need your help since you seem unable to defend it by producing biblical proof of your assertions.

 

[bankerdavid]

Pax
…well, from what I have gathered, Catholics do disagree with that statement. My one and only response to that is because you have surrounded yourself with idols ie the church, mary, saints, traditions, etc. These things dont get you to heaven nor do they reveal Christ. Christ reveals himself. Christ is all you need!

No, we do not disagree with that statement. In fact, we follow God’s law to the letter, as best we can in our state of wretchedness.
One of God’s commandments is to Honor your father and mother, right?
I see in this one statement that, by honoring Mary, the mother of our Lord, and thus the mother of our Church, henceforth OUR Mother, we are following God’s commandment. We also honor our Church Fathers, those who were nearest the nearest to Christ-the Saints, the Early Church Fathers, who told us how the Apostles (the first bishops) were taught to follow Jesus. We are all the Body of Christ. Jesus is the head, we are, together, the body of Christ.

1 The Church is the body of Christ. All Christians across the board, regardless of Catholic or Protestant, must recognize that we are all one body of Christ. Catholic is not the right way, but neither is the Protestant way. The only way is Christ, yet I see these people still cling to the Labels (“oh only catholic is the way”, or “no only protestant is the way”) as if it really matters. You foolish foolish people, you have cluttered up the Faith.

What labels? We follow what Christ taught, through word and deed, as passed down to us through the apostles to the bishops in a never-ending succession. Christ taught that there was to be one Church, his body. He gave Peter the keys to His kingdom, the power to bind and loose.
As to the faith, we follow a pretty simple faith-the one handed to Moses by God, which his Son restated, and reaffirmed. Follow the Commandments-Love God, and love your neighbor. Otherwise, go to Mass weekly and partake of the sacraments. ALL of them.

1. The only Salvation come from CHRIST. Everything else is trivial in the sense that it can no more achieve salvation than you or I can through our deeds.

We actually believe that salvation only comes from Christ, through his grace, and through that alone are we saved, for we can do nothing ourselves.

1. CHRIST is all we will ever need without arguement. We dont need mary or her to speak on our behalf nor the saints for that matter, nor the Church…CHRIST is our everything. HE is our **literal **CHURCH, SALVATION, AND THE SOURCE THAT SUSTAINS US

Because Christ is King, his mother, Mary is Queen Mother. The Bible shows us that the best way to have the King hear your request is to present it to the Queen Mother. The Saints hold a special place in Jesus heart as well. We know that Christ is the ultimate receiver of our requests, that’s why we ask him in all our prayers to have mercy on us, and we ask Mary our mother, and the saints to pray FOR us.

 

[Pax]

Hey,
I am done with this for a while for it has proven to not be fruitful. If you would take time to digest what has been written, you would understand. I, in fact dont contradict myself but when I speak of the Church, I speak of two churches.
Indeed one as the secular points of society and the fragments of Christianity and the TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST. That is not to say that there are churchs that dont have the TRUE body of CHRIST. There are certainly but we have divided ourself on needless issues. Why do we argue over Mary or the Saints or Traditions. Why do we burden our thoughts with such nonsense when they really have no berring on Salvation or more importantly, the Relationship with CHRIST. If your CHURCH places CHRIST as head and is fully submissive to what has been taught in his word, then it is a TRUE CHURCH. But those churchs that stress traditions and rituals or praying to mary or the saints, have really missed the point.
Alas, this has not become a productive conversation about CHRIST rather an argument over who is right and who is wrong. Only CHRIST is right.

If you want to have a productive conversation that is focused on Jesus alone, then you need to start a thread that focuses on something about Jesus. For example: One could start a thread to discuss the depth of Christ’s passion and death and how these express his love for us. Or one could start a thread about the importance of the resurrection. I could give you many more ideas, but you need to admit that you did not start such a thread at all. Moreover, the course of your posts has taken this thread in the direction it has been going. We are merely responding to your attacks.

I think all conversations are productive. You and I gain insights into one another’s views and although we disagree on many things, we can still agree on Jesus. He is our beloved Lord and Savior.

Yours in Christ Jesus Crucified,

Pax

 

[phil8888]

I dont know pax, it seems to me like he just came here and posted all this stuff, and then no matter what anyone said, he would have the same response. He didn’t directly respond to anything that anyone said, he just kept repeating the same thing over and over. Obviously he didn’t really want to learn anything about our religion.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I just want clarification exactly what the Catholic faith believes…what does it mean to be Catholic…who do you pray to what is the value of Saints, Mary…and so on i want the entire take on it…please people commit yourselves to a complete answer with Biblical backing…for we cannot say what we want to say, we must say what the LORD CHRIST has taught us!

And you are suggesting that Jesus wrote the Bible?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

p u n c t u a t i o n.

know it.
learn it.
live it.

Also breaking up huges chucks of text into small paragraphs would be so so sooooo welcome.