What does "Church" mean to you?

[SteveVH]

Now, you are offering something worth chewing on !

Unless you wish me to repeat what I have already said, you left me nowhere to go.

The sky is blue.
No its red.
No, its blue.
No, its red.



If you have a point to make, make it and I will be happy to respond.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You know what I wonder following this forum as I do?
Why is it some continue to visit, when their minds are clearly closed to the explained Truths of our beliefs. After all, this is a Catholic Answer site and yet they continue with the same old, same old, year end upon year end, with very little or no growth in the understanding of Truth shared . To me it is o.k if they don’t get it or can’t accept it. We share and many do come to the fullness through C.A but why stick around if what you can’t accept is all meaningless to you? Peace, Carlan

Oh they want to teach us the Word of God. dont ya know? they want to show us how much they know.

 

[SteveVH]

We may be further apart when comparing our various dogmas and doctrines…but we ARE One in Christ…made members of His One Body through the work of the Holy Spirit…at least I believe we are…you may have other ideas…but it isn’t important for me to make sure YOU believe we are One in Christ…it is only important that I embrace you as a brother in Christ.

Publisher, do you eat dinner with your family and pray before meals? Are you married? Do you celebrate birthdays? Do you celebrate Easter, or Christmas? All of these things contain ceremonies or rituals to some extent. And they are all good. I think you are missing much of what Christ intended for his Church by accepting the notion that all rituals are somehow bad. If Jesus participated in rituals I would think it is safe to say we can use Him as our model and participate as well.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, do you eat dinner with your family and pray before meals? Are you married? Do you celebrate birthdays? Do you celebrate Easter, or Christmas? All of these things contain ceremonies or rituals to some extent. And they are all good. I think you are missing much of what Christ intended for his Church by accepting the notion that all rituals are somehow bad. If Jesus participated in rituals I would think it is safe to say we can use Him as our model and participate as well.

Friend…we do celebrate those “rites of passage” for our respective culture and time in which we live…we do not beleive that celebrating such “life rituals/rites of passage” confer any “grace”…we do not practice religious rituals to receive “grace” from God…our Witness is that God is approachable directly without any other mediator than Christ Jesus. It is through Him that all grace and mercy flow…we share in His Priesthood as believers…all that needs to be done…has been done through Jesus of Nazareth…We seek to live “in that virtue and power of life which the apostles lived…”

We do not disparage rituals and rites which people engage in…we deny that participation in any such rituals bestowes God’s favor or grace.

 

[fbl9]

We do not disparage rituals and rites which people engage in…we deny that participation in any such rituals bestowes God’s favor or grace.

To my perspective doing so makes the words of Christ St.Matthew 28:19 “…baptise them in the name…” without worth. IOW such beleif renders His words to be devoid of any significance.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Friend…we do celebrate those “rites of passage” for our respective culture and time in which we live…we do not beleive that celebrating such “life rituals/rites of passage” confer any “grace”…we do not practice religious rituals to receive “grace” from God…our Witness is that God is approachable directly without any other mediator than Christ Jesus. It is through Him that all grace and mercy flow…we share in His Priesthood as believers…all that needs to be done…has been done through Jesus of Nazareth…We seek to live “in that virtue and power of life which the apostles lived…”

We do not disparage rituals and rites which people engage in…we deny that participation in any such rituals bestowes God’s favor or grace.

While you talk about the Word of God, we as Catholics live the Word. And the Word became flesh…

Rev.

17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 18 And he stood upon the sand of the sea.

 

[SteveVH]

Friend…we do celebrate those “rites of passage” for our respective culture and time in which we live…we do not beleive that celebrating such “life rituals/rites of passage” confer any “grace”…we do not practice religious rituals to receive “grace” from God…our Witness is that God is approachable directly without any other mediator than Christ Jesus. It is through Him that all grace and mercy flow…we share in His Priesthood as believers…all that needs to be done…has been done through Jesus of Nazareth…We seek to live “in that virtue and power of life which the apostles lived…”

We do not disparage rituals and rites which people engage in…we deny that participation in any such rituals bestowes God’s favor or grace.

"DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."

Why would he command us to participate in the Eucharist if it didn’t matter? To do what He did requires some semblance of ritual. I realize that you must defend your manner of worship, it is only natural, but throwing away rituals that were handed down to us from the Apostles does not bring purity of worship, it just means you are missing out on how Christ intended us to worship. Your Meetings, whether you realize it or not, take on the character of ritual, even if that “ritual” is that we meet in silence and wait upon the voice of the Lord.

 

[Publisher]

"DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."

Why would he command us to participate in the Eucharist if it didn’t matter? To do what He did requires some semblance of ritual. I realize that you must defend your manner of worship, it is only natural, but throwing away rituals that were handed down to us from the Apostles does not bring purity of worship, it just means you are missing out on how Christ intended us to worship. Your Meetings, whether you realize it or not, take on the character of ritual, even if that “ritual” is that we meet in silence and wait upon the voice of the Lord.

Again…I guess I’m not making myself clear…we have no issue with rituals…we do not participate in them to RECEIVE GRACE by our participation in them. No ritual or rite is a “means of grace”…dispensed without our participation in faith…the rituals in and of themselves do not dispense nor confer grace upon an indidiviual simply because someone makes a gesture over them and recites specific words while conducting the ritual…

It is not participation in rituals or rites we are against…we do not believe such rituals bestow grace in any way…since we do not believe they do so…and because we believe to participate in them collectively would not be living in Truth…since these rites and rituals could be seen as substitutes for the experience the Divine Reality…the God Who Is There…Inward Light which we believe all people have immediate access to…without need of priest or minister…as each of is is priest and minister for ourselves…as we present out bodies as “living sacrifices”…we share in his Death and His Resurrection…thre is no need to offer a ritual “In Rememberance of Me”…when the Person commanding it…Is Truly Present among us…so a “memorial ceremony” doesn’t seem necessary…He is Present among us.

I have received the Eucharist in Episcopalian liturgies…I was invited forward by the priest…He and I were members of a Spiritual Formation group that met every Friday afternoon…He had attended Meeting with me…I had attended Eucharist with him celebrating…I told him I had not been baptized in water…and neither could I accept the emblems as the “body and blood of Christ”…but if he was comfortable serving me, I woulld celebrate our common faith in Christ…even though HOW we worshipped was very different…he had received “Communion after the manner of Friends”…I thought to return the offer.

It may surprise you to know, I volunteered at an AIDS house the Catholic Sisters of Mercy were operating…one of the elderly nuns died…we had formed a friendship of sorts…I attended her funeral mass…the other sisters invited me to come with them to recieve the body and blood of Chirst…they may have been OK with it…but I knew the “rules” from being here and declined…during the reception some of the sisters came to me and told me that “You know that Sister would have wanted you to come forward.”…but I thanked them for their offer just the same.

 

[SteveVH]

Again…I guess I’m not making myself clear…we have no issue with rituals…we do not participate in them to RECEIVE GRACE by our participation in them. No ritual or rite is a “means of grace”…dispensed without our participation in faith…the rituals in and of themselves do not dispense nor confer grace upon an indidiviual simply because someone makes a gesture over them and recites specific words while conducting the ritual…

Point taken, Publisher, but I don’t know of anyone who would disagree that “the rituals in and of themselves do not dispense nor confer grace upon an indidiviual simply because someone makes a gesture over them and recites specific words while conducting the ritual”. The Quakers would not be unique in this belief. Catholics, with all of our rituals, would agree with your statement. It is Christ who confers all graces represented by the rituals.

 

[Publisher]

Point taken, Publisher, but I don’t know of anyone who would disagree that “the rituals in and of themselves do not dispense nor confer grace upon an indidiviual simply because someone makes a gesture over them and recites specific words while conducting the ritual”. The Quakers would not be unique in this belief. Catholics, with all of our rituals, would agree with your statement. ** It is Christ who confers all graces represented by the rituals.**

This is where we disagree…Christ confers no grace because of participation in a ritual conducted by someone acting on our behalf OR “in the stead of Christ”…and since we cannot endorse that belief…it is outside our understanding of how we conduct ourselves as people who believe in Truth expressed in our daily lives…I cannot indicate I have faith in such rituals by participating in them without first explaining my position…to do so would not be “living in Truth”.

I understand that you and your faith tradition belief that grace is dispensed by engaing and participaiting in such rites…I do understand…I do not agree…but my disagreement with rituals…in no way indicates that I believe that those who participate in them are somehow living a falsehood…you believe…so you must follow the dicates of your conscience as led by teh Light Within…so must I.

 

[SteveVH]

Publisher:
This is where we disagree…Christ confers no grace because of participation in a ritual conducted by someone acting on our behalf OR “in the stead of Christ”…and since we cannot endorse that belief…it is outside our understanding of how we conduct ourselves as people who believe in Truth expressed in our daily lives…I cannot indicate I have faith in such rituals by participating in them without first explaining my position…to do so would not be “living in Truth”.

That’s fine, but you should preface your remarks with “In my opinion…” The Mass, confers the greatest graces one can receive and is full of ritual. It is not the ritual that confers grace. It is Christ, standing at the altar, in the person of the priest, who changes mere bread and wine into His body and blood. The fact that you, and many others reject this does not make it untrue. This has been the understanding of the Church since Pentecost and has been handed down to us today. If you can show me a time, since the beginning of the Church, when this was not the case I would love to see it. I don’t know how or when or why the Quakers came about, but they have rejected the faith of the Apostles and relied instead on their own understanding.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s fine, but you should preface your remarks with “In my opinion…” The Mass, confers the greatest graces one can receive and is full of ritual. It is not the ritual that confers grace. It is Christ, standing at the altar, in the person of the priest, who changes mere bread and wine into His body and blood. The fact that you, and many others reject this does not make it untrue. This has been the understanding of the Church since Pentecost and has been handed down to us today. If you can show me a time, since the beginning of the Church, when this was not the case I would love to see it. I don’t know how or when or why the Quakers came about, but they have rejected the faith of the Apostles and relied instead on their own understanding.

I agree Steve, and I don’t undestand how this becomes misinterpreted in scripture.

I understand the Quakers I’ve read Thomas Mertons works, though he was a Trappist Monk his parents were Quakers.

So I kinda get the drift. but not the part on the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?