What does "Church" mean to you?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SteveVH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don’t have the Scripture with me, yet I’m pretty sure further into John 3: the tie becomes clearer with John the Baptist and water.
 
What the church means to me?
It is the bride of Christ. Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.
The chruch is ONE. Jesus established one Church, not a collection of differnt churches.
The church is HOLY, By his grace Jesus makes the Chruch holy, just as he is holy.
The chruch is Catholic, Jesus’ Church is catholic (universal" in Greek) becasue it is his gift to us all.
The church is Apostolic, The church Jesus founded is apostolic becasue he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Chruch
:bowdown2::bowdown2:
 
Publisher said:
In this passage from John you quote…those of us who do not believe in regenerational water baptism…“unless a man is born of water(a natural birth) and Spirit(a spiritual birth) he cannot enter into the…”

Jesus was discussing being “born anew”…“how can a man enter again into his mother’s womb…”

I know since you believe in water baptismal regeneration…this explanation won’t do…but that is the explanation concerning this verse often misused to support water baptism…it doesn’t discuss water baptism at all…I agree with you…CONTEXT is everything…and should be read in context with this passage.
Click to expand...
**Sorry - but that just doesn’t pass the smell test.
If you’re implying that the water being spoken of is amniotic fluid - you’re WAY off base. **Jesus said:
John 3:5
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
This is clearly speaking of Baptism because not everybody who goes to heaven is physically born. Nicodemus addressed physical birth. Jesus responded with what happens spiritually after Baptism.

What do you think happens to aborted babies? If they neither go to heaven or hell - why is it wrong to kill them?
 
Here’s the verse a bit further into the same chapter of John 3.

3:22 After these things, Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them and baptized.

3:23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim: because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized
 
elvisman said:
And, according to the Gospel of John, the Apostle, Jesus said that it was of water AND spirit (John 3:5).

You have to take all the Scriptures in CONTEXT. They cannot contradict each other - they MUST harmonize with one another.
Click to expand...
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

How do you get this to be about baptism.

I sure do agree context is vital and that Scriptures must harmonize. Traditions should harmonize with Sripture as well.
 
Dokimas said:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

How do you get this to be about baptism.

I sure do agree context is vital and that Scriptures must harmonize. Traditions should harmonize with Sripture as well.
Click to expand...
Colossians 2:11-13 (NKJV)
11 “In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by
putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in
the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has
made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.”

This is the 2nd birth, when you are raised with him in baptism - water and the Holy Spirit.
 
Dokimas said:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

How do you get this to be about baptism.

I sure do agree context is vital and that Scriptures must harmonize. Traditions should harmonize with Sripture as well.
Click to expand...
Right - and this absolutely harmionizes with Scripture AND Tradition.

Tell me, Doki - what do you think Jesus was talking about when he said we must be born of water and spirit?
 
elvisman said:
Right - and this absolutely harmionizes with Scripture AND Tradition.

**Tell me, Doki - what **do you think Jesus was talking about when he said we must be born of water and spirit?
Click to expand...
Context suggests water is being born the first time and Spirit is what’s needed for the 2nd birth.
 
Evan said:
Colossians 2:11-13 (NKJV)
11 “In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by
putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in
the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has
made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.”

This is the 2nd birth, when you are raised with him in baptism - water and the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
I see why you believe what you do. I see it differently. Thanks for that wonderful verses from Colossians.
 
Dokimas said:
Context suggests water is being born the first time and Spirit is what’s needed for the 2nd birth.
Click to expand...
As I indicated to Publisher that just doesn’t pass the smell test. Nicodemus had already addressed physical birth. Jesus responded with what happens next. Ezekiel 36:25 clearly mentions this.
The funny thing about this is that most Protestant scholars that I have read on the subject don’t even point to amniotic fluid as being the “water” Jesus was speaking of.**

As I also pointed out to Publisher - not everybody who goes to heaven is physically born. What do you think happens to aborted babies? Do they go to hell or do you think the mercy of God would allow them into heaven?**

Given your position about amniotic fluid, I think it’s safe to say that you believe they go straight to hell.
 
elvisman said:
As I indicated to Publisher **that just doesn’t pass the smell test. Nicodemus had already addressed physical birth. Jesus responded with what happens next. Ezekiel 36:25 clearly mentions this.
The funny thing about this is that most Protestant scholars that I have read on the subject don’t even point to amniotic fluid as being the “water” Jesus was speaking of.

As I also pointed out to Publisher - not everybody who goes to heaven is physically born. What do* you* think happens to aborted babies? Do they go to hell or do you think the mercy of God would allow them into heaven?

Given your position about amniotic fluid, I think it’s safe to say that you believe they go straight to hell.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t aware we understand the Bible by smell.😃

I surely seems to pass the context test, thought.
 
elvisman said:
Right - and this absolutely harmionizes with Scripture AND Tradition.

**Tell me, Doki - what **do you think Jesus was talking about when he said we must be born of water and spirit?
Click to expand...
If Jesus was talking about water baptism then Catholic doctrine is not in accord with the passage.
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:5 NASB)
Click to expand...
Jesus says being born of water is absolutely necessary. If this is speaking of water baptism then Jesus is saying that it is required without exception. Yet Catholic doctrine allows for a baptism of blood and a baptism of desire in place of water baptism. This would be contrary to what Jesus says if being born of water refers to water baptism.

Now it might be said that baptism is the normal means but God is not bound by His own rules. But that is not the issue here. Jesus uses the word unless. He does not allow any exception. So while God could work without water baptism, it would render Jesus’ statement untrue, which we know is impossible. Therefore He must be talking of something other than water baptism.
 
SyCarl said:
If Jesus was talking about water baptism then Catholic doctrine is not in accord with the passage.

Jesus says being born of water is absolutely necessary. If this is speaking of water baptism then Jesus is saying that it is required without exception. Yet Catholic doctrine allows for a baptism of blood and a baptism of desire in place of water baptism. This would be contrary to what Jesus says if being born of water refers to water baptism.

Now it might be said that baptism is the normal means but God is not bound by His own rules. But that is not the issue here. Jesus uses the word unless. He does not allow any exception. So while God could work without water baptism, it would render Jesus’ statement untrue, which we know is impossible. Therefore He must be talking of something other than water baptism.
Click to expand...
Not at all. It is a common Protestant blunder to take the Scriptures in a wooden, literal sense and to try and contain God in the written Word.

**Baptism of desire and baptism by martyrdom are legitimate forms of Baptism. The criminal on the cross next to Jesus is a good case for Baprism of desire. **

**Remember that Jesus gave the Church ALL authority in heaven and on earth to do his will (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 20:21-23). That’s why Paul calls it the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23). This is also why Jesus identifies his very self with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). Christ and his Church are inseperable and the Authority he gave his Church to do his will on his behalf is completely Scriptural - as I have shown.

Again - if he only meant that people who are physically born will go to heaven - then you must be implying that aborted babies will go to hell.
Is this correct?
 
elvisman said:
Not at all. It is a common Protestant blunder to take the Scriptures in a wooden, literal sense and to try and contain God in the written Word.

Baptism of desire and baptism by martyrdom are legitimate forms of Baptism. The criminal on the cross next to Jesus is a good case for Baprism of desire.

Remember that Jesus gave the Church ALL authority in heaven and on earth to do his will (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 20:21-23). That’s why Paul calls it the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23). This is also why Jesus identifies his very *self *with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). Christ and his Church are inseperable and the Authority he gave his Church to do his will on his behalf is completely Scriptural - as I have shown.

Again - if he only meant that people who are physically born will go to heaven - then you must be implying that aborted babies will go to hell.
Is this correct?
Click to expand...
I am not suggesting that born of water means physical birth.

However, taking Jesus at His word when He uses the word unless is not taking scripture in a wooden sense. It is giving the word its normal and plain meaning. I can see no real way around the word “unless” Either Jesus is saying water baptism is necessary, with no exceptions or baptism of desire or baptism of blood, or he is not talking about water baptism at all here. Does the Church have the authority to change what Jesus said? I don’t think so.
 
SyCarl said:
I am not suggesting that born of water means physical birth.

However, taking Jesus at His word when He uses the word unless is not taking scripture in a wooden sense. It is giving the word its normal and plain meaning. I can see no real way around the word “unless” Either Jesus is saying water baptism is necessary, with no exceptions or baptism of desire or baptism of blood, or he is not talking about water baptism at all here. Does the Church have the authority to change what Jesus said? I don’t think so.
Click to expand...
Jesus is God - and God has the right to make any exceptions he wants. We see this all through Scripture. Look at how many times he relented and stayed faithful to the Jews after the countless times they rejected him. Your problem is that you are trying to pigeonhole Jesus into your understanding.

On the night before he was crucified, Jesus told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church to ALL truth. Not once - in any translation do I read that he would only guide them to a partial truth. He told them that whatever the Church ordained on earth would be ordained in heaven - whoever listens to the Church, listens to Christ and the One who sent him (Luke 10:16).

What is “Church”? Church is supreme authority on earth because it is the Body of Christ - and he is the head.

I’ll ask you yet again: WHAT is the water Jesus is talking about in John 3:5?
 
Dokimas said:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

How do you get this to be about baptism.

I sure do agree context is vital and that Scriptures must harmonize. Traditions should harmonize with Sripture as well.
Click to expand...
Its impossible to interpret John 3 any other way unless you are intentionally trying to hear something which isn’t there.

Read the chapter all the way though it becomes clear by John 3:22-23. 🤷

I get it, everyone wants to put the square peg in the round hole to fit “their” interpretation of Faith and Church.

How about this theory. How about just following “His Church”.
 
elvisman said:
**Sorry - but that just *doesn’t *pass the smell test.
If you’re implying that the water being spoken of is amniotic fluid - you’re WAY off base. Jesus said:
John 3:5
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
This is clearly speaking of Baptism because not everybody who goes to heaven is physically born. Nicodemus addressed physical birth. Jesus responded with what happens spiritually after Baptism.

What do you think happens to aborted babies? If they neither go to heaven or hell - why is it wrong to kill them?
Click to expand...
No…I’m afraid you’re using “personal interpretation”…the context clearly is discussing two births…one of water…physical…and one spiritual…“of the Spirit”…

Question…has this been infalliblly interpreted by your church community or is this simply what YOU believe…does your church as a whole accept this interpretation?

Of “water and Spirit”…physical birth and spiritual birth…but then…I don’t practice ritual ordinances that use water.🙂
 
1st Luminous Mystery and its scripture verse is defined in Matt 3:16-17
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top