What does "Church" mean to you?

[Scaun]

A Church is a gourp of Christians that functions likea body. Each is different, all important and all must work together and all obey the Head.

 

[elvisman]

No…I’m afraid you’re using “personal interpretation”…the context clearly is discussing two births…one of water…physical…and one spiritual…“of the Spirit”…

Question…has this been infalliblly interpreted by your church community or is this simply what YOU believe…does your church as a whole accept this interpretation?

Of “water and Spirit”…physical birth and spiritual birth…but then…I don’t practice ritual ordinances that use water.

**No, I’m *not *using personal interpretation. ****This is what the Church has taught for 2000 years. The Early Church Fathers taught this. **The Magesterium of the Catholic Church uses John 3:5 and 1 Pet. 3:20, among others to explain Baptismal regeneration in the Catechism.

As I indicated before - your faulty interpretation of this passage condemns all aborted children to hell because they never experienced physical birth.

You STILL have not answered the question - nor has Dokimas:
Tell me HOW water means physical birth if it is not talking about amniotic fluid? How do you glean this understanding?

 

[elvisman]

A Church is a gourp of Christians that functions likea body. Each is different, all important and all must work together and all obey the Head.

Can you show me where it states this in the Bible?
Can you show me where Jesus established - or even endorsed the idea of multiple churches?

In John 17, at the Last Supper, Jesus prayed for the Unity of his ONE Church - that they remain ONE and he and the Father are ONE.

 

[Dokimas]

So, I’m correct in saying that you believe all aborted babies will go to* hell*?

You’re a funny person.

How, pray tell, do you get that from what I’ve said?

If I believe babies don’t need to be baptized to go to Heaven if they die, then what’s your guess that I might believe about aborted babies.

Remember it is you how believes babies must be baptized, correct?

 

[Dokimas]

Its impossible to interpret John 3 any other way unless you are intentionally trying to hear something which isn’t there.

Read the chapter all the way though it becomes clear by John 3:22-23.

I get it, everyone wants to put the square peg in the round hole to fit “their” interpretation of Faith and Church.

How about this theory. How about just following “His Church”.

You mean interpreting that Jesus is speaking of baptism. It’s not there, is it?

Being born the first time is not mentioned in the John 3 passage? Are you sure?

 

[Dokimas]

You STILL have not answered the question - nor has Dokimas:
**Tell me HOW **water means physical birth if it is not talking about amniotic fluid? How do you glean this understanding?

I must have missed the question.

I didn’t say it was not referring to amniotic fluid. It common to say that a woman’s ‘water broke’.

 

[Dokimas]

Can you show me where it states this in the Bible?
Can you show me where Jesus established - or even endorsed the idea of multiple churches?

In John 17, at the Last Supper, Jesus prayed for the Unity of his ONE Church - that they remain ONE and he and the Father are ONE.

All truly Christian churches ARE united in Christ as His Body.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Here’s the verse a bit further into the same chapter of John 3.

3:22 After these things, Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them and baptized.

3:23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim: because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized

Its right here Dok, John chaper 3?

 

[elvisman]

You’re a funny person.

How, pray tell, do you get that from what I’ve said?

If I believe babies don’t need to be baptized to go to Heaven if they die, then what’s your guess that I might believe about aborted babies.

Remember it is you how believes babies must be baptized, correct?

I’m not talking about their being baptized. I’m talking about them being born - PHYSICALLY.
**You are the one claiming that Jesus is talking about PHYSICAL birth being one of the a requirements for salvation. **Jesus said plainly:
John 3:5
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

---

I ask you for the 3RD time:
Are you saying - BASED on the verse - that you believe all aborted babies will go to hell?**

 

[elvisman]

I must have missed the question.

I didn’t say it was not referring to amniotic fluid. It common to say that a woman’s ‘water broke’.

So - let me get this straight - you are saying that when Jesus spoke of being born of water and spirit, he meant:**
Water = Amniotic fluid at birth?
Spirit - Holy Spirit at Baptism?

Is that correct?

 

[Dokimas]

Its right here Dok, John chaper 3?

Don’t you think it’s important that baptism should be in the context of the conversation Jesus was having with Nicodemus?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Maybe the KJV is better?

John 3:3 Verily I say to you unless a man be born again he cannot enter into the Kingom of God.

John 3:4 How can a man be born when he is old?

John 3:5 Unless a man be born of Water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

John 3:6 Marvel now at what I said, You must be Born Again.

Isn’t this “all” in the context of the exact same chapter “John 3” Your joking right?

 

[elvisman]

All truly Christian churches ARE united in Christ as His Body.

No they’re not. The Catholic Church is monolothic and united. Protestant denominations are neither fully united with the Catholic Church nor one another. Christ’s Body cannot be separated - and neither can his Church.**

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
****Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
**Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not. **
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

Many are essential, make-or-break issues. How can you say thay they are “united”?
That’s a complete farce.

 

[Dokimas]

I’m not talking about their being baptized. I’m talking about them being born - PHYSICALLY.
You are the one claiming that Jesus is talking about PHYSICAL birth being one of the a requirements for salvation. Jesus said plainly:
**John 3:5
**"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

---

I ask you for the 3RD time:
Are you saying - BASED on the verse - that you believe all aborted babies will go to* hell*?

I was, you are correct. However, an unborn baby doesn’t need to be born again, so are not part of the John 3 discussion, IMO.

Silly person, John 3 doesn’t include unborn babies that die. NO I don’t believe unborn dead babies go to hell.

It’s best to stick to the context.

 

[Dokimas]

No they’re not**. The Catholic Church is monolothic and united. Protestant denominations are neither fully united with the Catholic Church nor one another. Christ’s Body cannot be separated - and neither can his Church.

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

Many are essential, make-or-break issues. How can you say thay they are “united”?
That’s a complete farce.

I disagree with your disagreement with me. But, thanks for your opinion.

In your churches there are many people who don’t believe as you do. Does that mean protestants are more honest because they start new ‘churches’ when they disagree with a teaching?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Everyone needs to be Born Again.

John 3:6 Marvel not at what I said, You must be Born Again. {Thats means Everyone} Since He is God the “you” means everyone else who isn’t God.

 

[Dokimas]

Everyone needs to be Born Again.

John 3:6 Marvel not at what I said, You must be Born Again. {Thats means Everyone} Since He is God the “you” means everyone else who isn’t God.

Funny!

“You” means EVERYONE but “All” (in all have sinned) doesn’t mean all.

 

[elvisman]

I disagree with your disagreement with me. But, thanks for your opinion.

In your churches there are many people who don’t believe as you do. Does that mean protestants are more honest because they start new ‘churches’ when they disagree with a teaching?

**No - that means that there are dissidents within the Church - as there are in every Protestant denomination. **The difference is - when they leave to start other “churches” - they leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is monolithic and united - dissidents notwithstanding.

 

[elvisman]

I was, you are correct. However, an unborn baby doesn’t need to be born again, so are not part of the John 3 discussion, IMO.

Silly person, John 3 doesn’t include unborn babies that die. NO I don’t believe unborn dead babies go to hell.

It’s best to stick to the context.

I’m asking you to explain your position, which has never been the position of the historic Christian faith for 1500 years. The weight of Scripture and the testimony of the Early Church agrees with the Catholic position - since the Bible and Early Church were Catholic.

Since you are being evasive about your answer - let me ask this a different way:
In layman’s terms - what exactly do you believe Jesus was telling Nicodemus in John 3:5?

 

[elvisman]

Funny!

“You” means EVERYONE but “All” (in all have sinned) doesn’t mean all.

Ummm, “ALL” in Rom. 3 is easily debunked.
Jesus was a human. Does “ALL” include him?
Does it include newborn infants?
**Severly retarded people who don’**t have full use of their faculties?