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jmcrae
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Both of which were given by the Bishops of the Catholic Church in union with Rome, before they gave us the Bible.
That is definitely Sacred Tradition - Catholic Sacred Tradition.
One wonders why - after all, if the Catholic Bishops have the authority to give us the Creeds and the Bible, why do they not have the authority Jesus Himself gave them, to be the overseers of our faith?
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mackbrislawn
Guest
We must remember that it is the Church that kept the memory of Jesus alive down through the ages. It was the Church that wrote the scriptures that tell the story of Jesus; the Church that preserved and copied the manuscripts of scripture; the Church that converted and taught the people to believe in Jesus and the bible.
Without a strong organizing Church, the followers of Jesus would have splintered and disappeared among the welter of the other mystery religions popular in the Roman empire at that time.
Without the missionaries of the Church, our ancestors would have remained pagan, or become Muslim.
So, without the Church, for us, there would be no Jesus to say yes to.
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Esdra
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Yes, I know in the meantime!
Maybe it’d be a good idea to start a thread here what bits and peaces of the Sacred Tradition Churches like the Baptists, i.e.
Hm, that’s really interesting to think about. But I also can’t answer you this question. And actually it is also quite hard to ask a Baptist about it because they most likely won’t know what S.T. is. I also didn’t, although I was even baptized and raised Catholic.One wonders why - after all, if the Catholic Bishops have the authority to give us the Creeds and the Bible, why do they not have the authority Jesus Himself gave them, to be the overseers of our faith?
Man, at this point I’d like to thank all of you here in CAF who have helped me in the past years to understand the Catholic Faith!
Thank you!
in Christ,
Esdra
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josephback
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Where did the Nicene and Apostle’s Creed come from? Either way, it leads to the Church.
Isn’t it interesting how we all have traditions. We rarely think of it as tradition though. For instance, where does the Bible say to worship on Sunday?
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Protector
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With respect jmcrae; is n’t this somewhat similar to your Holy Father when he makes “ex-cathedra” pronouncments?
Protector.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Christ promised His Church He would send the Spirit of Truth, to teach them all truth. This was not a promise to ‘individuals’. Read John starting at chapter 13 and see who Christ is specifically speaking to. Who is the audience? Only the disciples are present during Him speaking of the Spirit of Truth. Only the disciples are present until chapter 18 when they came to arrest Jesus. You will not find a time Christ spoke to the multitudes that He promised the Spirit of Truth to lead them.
The Church is one, with one truth. Many individuals claim Holy Spirit guidance, yet speak many different truths, according to their own interpretations. I cannot see how many different ‘truths’ equal His one truth?
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Esdra
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But didn’t in Acts Chapter 2 ALL recieve the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?
So why then, if He was only promised to the Apostles?
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Prodigal_Son1
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The Apostles gathered in the upper room, replaced Judas’ bishopric. Then in chapter 2, of the Acts of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit came upon them, the disciples, the authoritative men of the Church.
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graceandglory
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Dear ajpirc,
It is the disdain for “organized” religion. These people believe that the “church” is invisible, and not connected to any “man-made” organized religion. These folk are anti-doctrine and anti-dogma. I attended “big church” with these people for many years, they got burned out by the ever-changing and ever-fracturing nature of the evangelical churches. Whenever someone in the church, who has leadership abilities, disagrees on a bible interpretation from the pastor of the church, they will leave and bring a couple dozen “friends” with them, thus splitting the church.
After living through some of these church “splits” they get ultra burned out and righty so, they have been hurt by “religion” as it is practiced by men.
King Solomon said “their ain’t nuthin’ new under the sun.”(Ecclesiastes) (sic)
Pride goeth before destruction and haughtiness before a fall. That’s the nature of church splits.
So these folk become disenfrancised, have their own anti-Church religion, and have stopped going to church with other people in a building, choosing to now call “Church” a meal they eat in their own home when they talk about the bible.
It doesn’t have to be on a Sunday. Organized religion made that rule up.
There is a huge multi-million, perhaps billion dollar “Christian” industry right now, cranking out books on this topic.
Frankly, it breaks my heart. I wish our Catholic apologist would write a book about this.
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jmcrae
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Not at all. the Pope can’t make ex cathedra pronouncements that aren’t already supported by the Holy Tradition and the consistent teaching of the Scriptures and the Magisterium. The only thing an ex cathedra statement can do is reaffirm the constant teaching of the Church - as when Pope John Paul II declared infallibly in 1994 that we have a male priesthood in the Catholic Church in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis or when Pope Pius IX declared infallibly in 1854 the Immaculate Conception of Mary, in Ineffabilis Deus.
If you read through these declarations, you will see that in both cases, the support for the doctrines in question is reviewed extensively, and carefully. Nothing is being pulled out of thin air, or being dropped in as a brand new idea that no Catholic ever heard of before.
The reason they needed to be declared was not because they had been unknown before, but because it was only at that time that people were being influenced by ideas from outside the Church to think that perhaps these things were not really true - the purpose of an infallible declaration is not to give new information, but rather, to reaffirm the Holy Tradition, and to remind people of what they already know, in an era of confusion.
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Esdra
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I’ve always thought that in this room before that Holy Spirit came there were far more people than the 12, the authoritive men of the Church, as you call them!
It’s also written about women i.e.
And I believe that here in this room the whole first Christian community was gathered together - and that ALL recieved the Holy Spirit and not only the authoritive men.
By the way: I haven’t known that the CC teaches that only priests and bishops etc. have the Holy Spirit. - I’ve always thought that EVERYONE gets the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands (of a bishop or another authoritive men appointed by the bishop) at the Confirmation?
Or do I missinterpret there something?
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jmcrae
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Everyone receives the Holy Spirit, but not everyone receives a Bishop’s authority. We all have different gifts and different roles. If all were Bishops, who would be the people?
We also share in a baptismal priesthood, but we are not all ordained to the Sacramental priesthood. Again, we all have different roles. Some are teachers; some are workers - some are students and children.
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Esdra
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So what happened then in that room in Acts 2? Did they recieve the Holy Spirit or an ordination to the Bishop’s authority? - Men, you are confusing me?Everyone receives the Holy Spirit, but not everyone receives a Bishop’s authority. We all have different gifts and different roles. If all were Bishops, who would be the people?
We also share in a baptismal priesthood, but we are not all ordained to the Sacramental priesthood. Again, we all have different roles. Some are teachers; some are workers - some are students and children.
Were there only the 12 (-Jude +Matthew) or all the “First Christians” (including women children, probably, etc)
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Prodigal_Son1
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How big do you think the upper room was? Anyways, Christ told ONLY the disciples He would send the Spirit of Truth, to guide them in all things. Where did He ever tell this to the multitudes? He didn’t.
He may abide with you for ever. Christ knew these were mortal men, but they were men He chose and appointed with all authority given Him from above. He may abide with His Church, through the apostolic and authoritative men, forever.
As Jim explained, the Holy Spirit does come to all of us, according to our callings.
Christ also told the Apostles:
What were they with Him from the beginning of? The Church.
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Kristin234
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It was the Church that wrote the scriptures that tell the story of Jesus? Wasn’t the church developed hundreds of years after the New Testament was written or am I wrong? I thought the scripture was written by Jews and Gentiles who were inspired by the holy spirit, so technically God is the one who wrote the scriptures.
I believe that reason the Bible has lasted this long and his word has been spread throughout the world is because God is the one who preserved it and he is the one who has authority over it. Yes, his word was preserved by people, but don’t you think a God as great as our God could preserve his word till the end of times without the help of powerless human beings like ourselves? I think all the credit should be given to him whether or not a group of people helped preserve it.
I do agree that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together though.
There are people all over the world who aren’t a part of the Catholic Church that have helped spread the gospels. Many Protestants risked their lives by going to dangerous islands where no one has even heard the name of Christ. Someone from my Church went with his wife to evangelize in a Middle Eastern country and still stayed there to minister even after his wife was brutally killed for talking about Jesus.
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Prodigal_Son1
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The Church was built by Christ, and most consider the beginning of the Church was at Pentecost. The Church came first, before the New Testament. Scriptures even tell of the Church being the pillar and foundation of truth, the place where the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known.
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jmcrae
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Yes, exactly. Bishops of the Catholic Church (four Apostles and four second-generation Bishops) wrote the Books of the New Testament in the period between 65 and 95 AD.
No. Jesus appointed Peter to be our Pope just before He died on the Cross. (Matthew 16:18-19.) After Peter’s betrayal, and when Jesus rose again from the dead, Jesus then reinstated Peter to the Papacy in even more clear terms, as we see in John 21:15-19.
We also see in various places that the Apostles were given authority to rule alongside Peter over the Church. We see them exercising this authority throughout the Book of Acts (especially in Acts 15, when they make some very definitive rulings that are binding upon the whole Church)
We also notice throughout the New Testament that they are continually ordaining men by means of the laying on of hands, to become Bishops, and that they are baptizing and Confirming people everywhere that they go.
God certainly inspired the Scriptures and protected them from error. Human beings - Jewish leaders, in the case of the Old Testament, and Bishops and Apostles in the case of the New Testament - actually wrote it, though.
There are some very short writings in the Old Testament that do in fact come from lonely shepherds writing whatever came into their minds while isolated from civilization, but the majority of the Scriptures were written by people who were recognizably in authority over the worshipping community, at the time that they were doing the writing.
Nothing was ever just found under a rock and “recognized” as Scripture by some kind of supernatural revelation. The writings were already known to be authoritative, and it is because they were known to be authoritative that they were even considered to be included in the Bible, to begin with.
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josephback
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So are we all priests then by virtue of our baptism? Is every believer a priest - as in a “kingdom of priests”?
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes - “priest, prophet, and king” because of our Baptism into Christ.
But the ministerial priesthood is different than our baptismal priesthood.
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