What does Daniel 8:13,14 mean?

[barboza21]

Hi,
I know that the Adventist movement was kind of first funded through Miller. However, he had false profecies. I am not sure what really happened. I would like to know what Daniel 8:13-14 really means.

Thanks to all!

 

[Barbkw]

usccb.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel8.htm

To clarify Daniel 8:13-14 reads:

"(5) I heard a holy one speaking, and another said to whichever one it was that spoke, “How long shall the events of this vision last concerning the daily sacrifice, the desolating sin which is placed there, the sanctuary, and the trampled host?”

He answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be purified.”

Note: 5 [13] The desolating sin: the Hebrew contains a wordplay (shomem) on the name Baal Shamem (“lord of the heavens,” the Greek Zeus Olympios), referring to the statue with which Antiochus profaned the temple of Jerusalem (2 Macc 6:2).

(2 Macc 6:2) Note 1; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested.

Note 1 [2] Olympian Zeus: equated with the Syrian Baal Shamen (“the lord of the heavens”), a term which the Jews rendered as “Shiqqus shomem,” horrible abomination (Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; 1 Macc 1:54).

Or…are you referring instead to the Little Horn in Daniel - which Adventist say is the Whore of Babylon, the Catholic Church?

USCCB writes of that: " [9] A little horn, as in Daniel 7 is Antiochus IV. The glorious country: Palestine."

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi,
I know that the Adventist movement was kind of first funded through Miller. However, he had false profecies. I am not sure what really happened. I would like to know what Daniel 8:13-14 really means.

Thanks to all!

Dan.8
13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Here’s a link that might help

biblelight.net/Dan8-mark.htm

 

[barboza21]

usccb.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel8.htm

To clarify Daniel 8:13-14 reads:

"(5) I heard a holy one speaking, and another said to whichever one it was that spoke, “How long shall the events of this vision last concerning the daily sacrifice, the desolating sin which is placed there, the sanctuary, and the trampled host?”

He answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be purified.”

Note: 5 [13] The desolating sin: the Hebrew contains a wordplay (shomem) on the name Baal Shamem (“lord of the heavens,” the Greek Zeus Olympios), referring to the statue with which Antiochus profaned the temple of Jerusalem (2 Macc 6:2).

(2 Macc 6:2) Note 1; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested.

Note 1 [2] Olympian Zeus: equated with the Syrian Baal Shamen (“the lord of the heavens”), a term which the Jews rendered as “Shiqqus shomem,” horrible abomination (Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; 1 Macc 1:54).

Or…are you referring instead to the Little Horn in Daniel - which Adventist say is the Whore of Babylon, the Catholic Church?

USCCB writes of that: " [9] A little horn, as in Daniel 7 is Antiochus IV. The glorious country: Palestine."

This is what I’ve read on many websites. Is this what Seventh Day Adventists really believe?

The prediction of the year 1843 was based in large part on Daniel 8:14: “And he said onto me, unto 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Miller believed the “2,300 days” referred to 2,300 years and that the countdown began in 457 BC. He concluded that the “cleansing of the sanctuary” (interpreted as the Second Coming) would occur sometime between March 21, 1843 and March 21, 1844.

When these dates passed, Samuel Snow, a follower of Miller, interpreted the “tarrying time” referred to in Habakkuk 2:3 as equal to 7 months and 10 days, thus delaying the end time to October 22, 1844. When this date also passed uneventfully, many followers left the movement in what is now termed “The Great Disappointment.”

Miller’s followers who remained in the movement called themselves Adventists, and taught that the expectation had been fulfilled in a way that had not previously been understood. Further Bible study led to the belief that Jesus in that year had entered into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary, and began an “investigative judgment” of the world: a process through which there is an examination of the heavenly records to “determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement” after which time Jesus will return to earth. According to the church’s teaching, the return of Christ may occur very soon, though nobody knows the exact date of that event (Matthew 24:36).

Is the place of the heavenly sanctuary the seat at the right hand of the father?

Thanks!

 

[barboza21]

Hi Richard,

Well I guess I should have phrased my question differently…
Can you read my reply to barbkw?
That’s more like what I meant… and what my question was more about…

Thanks!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard,

Well I guess I should have phrased my question differently…
Can you read my reply to barbkw?
That’s more like what I meant… and what my question was more about…

Thanks!

Your appraisal of what happened in 1844 and what happened as a result of the misunderstanding of Dan.8:14 is spot on. As to your question, “Is the place of the heavenly sanctuary the seat at the right hand of the father?” One can only assime that it is, however, the very fact that you ask this question, may, and I must emphasize may, display an ignorance of the enormity of what is occurring here. The festivals of the sanctuary are prophetic in nature. The Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur is the festival that is prophetic of the event in question. On the Day of Atonement all of the families of the children of Israel were required to bring an animal to be sacrificed. The head of the family would place his hand on the head of the animal to be sacrificed thereby symbolically transferring his sins to the animal. He was then required to slit the animals throat. The high priest would collect the blood from the animal and on the day of atonement and only on this day the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies to minister the blood of “The Lamb Of God” before the throne of God. This is exactly what is Happening right now in heaven. Jesus is ministering His blood before the Father on our behalf. In other words, the day of judgement has come.

 

[campeador]

This might also help.

Douay-Rheims Bible footnote for Daniel 8:14 : Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days… That is, six years and almost four months: which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death. (Challoner)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard,

Well I guess I should have phrased my question differently…
Can you read my reply to barbkw?
That’s more like what I meant… and what my question was more about…

Thanks!

Dan.8
14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: **for at the time of the end shall be the vision. **
18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
**19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. **

As these vs. show this vision is of the time of the end.

 

[benidict]

usccb.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel8.htm

To clarify Daniel 8:13-14 reads:

"(5) I heard a holy one speaking, and another said to whichever one it was that spoke, “How long shall the events of this vision last concerning the daily sacrifice, the desolating sin which is placed there, the sanctuary, and the trampled host?”

He answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be purified.”

Note: 5 [13] The desolating sin: the Hebrew contains a wordplay (shomem) on the name Baal Shamem (“lord of the heavens,” the Greek Zeus Olympios), referring to the statue with which Antiochus profaned the temple of Jerusalem (2 Macc 6:2).

(2 Macc 6:2) Note 1; also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and that on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Hospitable, as the inhabitants of the place requested.

Note 1 [2] Olympian Zeus: equated with the Syrian Baal Shamen (“the lord of the heavens”), a term which the Jews rendered as “Shiqqus shomem,” horrible abomination (Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; 1 Macc 1:54).

Or…are you referring instead to the Little Horn in Daniel - which Adventist say is the Whore of Babylon, the Catholic Church?

USCCB writes of that: " [9] A little horn, as in Daniel 7 is Antiochus IV. The glorious country: Palestine."

hi barbkw. good to know, there are others who see this. yes. when one reads maccabees, it shines alot of light on who daniel was prophecing about, and puts to rest, many errornious views. not only from the Adventist, but premillienialist dispensationalist, fundamentalist as well. i 100% agree. antiochus IV is the little horn in daniel prophecied. if maccabees had not been taken out of modern day editions, we may well have avoided these errors. thank you, Happy New Year, and peace

 

[barboza21]

Samuel Snow, a follower of Miller, interpreted the “tarrying time” referred to in Habakkuk 2:3 as equal to 7 months and 10 days, thus delaying the end time to October 22, 1844.

Miller’s followers who remained in the movement called themselves Adventists, and taught that the expectation had been fulfilled in a way that had **not previously **been understood. ( Further Bible study led to the belief that Jesus in that year had entered into the Most Holy. Place of the heavenly sanctuary and began an “investigative judgment” of the world: a process through which there is an examination of the heavenly records to “determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement” after which time Jesus will return to earth.

According to the church’s teaching, the return of Christ may occur very soon, though nobody knows the exact date of that event (Matthew 24:36).

So then the church believes that on that day, something Did happen: Jesus entered into the most holy place… (the heavenly sanctuary) ? right??

As to your question, “Is the place of the heavenly sanctuary the seat at the right hand of the father?” One can only assime that it is,

…In other words, the day of judgement has come.

So your answer is yes. Correct?

But I was reading the other day, and I got to thinking…

Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds od heaven.” Matt. 26:64

So hasn’t jesus been there waay before that day that Miller set?

And also, I was wondering Adventists came from Miller. (those still believing even though he had profetized something wrong)… and then they followed EGW.

Right? Or am I wrong? Please let me know, I don’t want to say something wrong.

But then, wouldn’t Adventists have a “false profet” base? Especially if they still believe what Miller also believed then…

Please let me know what you think. I am trying to understand what Adventists truly believe about their faith. Thanks!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So then the church believes that on that day, something Did happen: Jesus entered into the most holy place… (the heavenly sanctuary) ? right??

Yes.

So your answer is yes. Correct?

Yes.

But I was reading the other day, and I got to thinking…

Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds od heaven.” Matt. 26:64

So hasn’t jesus been there waay before that day that Miller set?

Have you seen the son of man come in the clouds of heaven, barboza? Of coarse Jesus was seated at the right hand of His Father way before 1844. But Dan. 8:14 is talking about Jesus entering the Holy of Holies for a very specific purpose. That purpose would be as our High Priest, our Propitiation, In 1844 He entered the Holy of Holies to minister His blood on our behalf before the throne of His Father. In other words the real “Day of Atonement” had begun, the time in which the sanctuary would be cleansed, the time of judgement talked about in
Rev.14
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This whole thing is explained in much detail in Heb.7-10

And also, I was wondering Adventists came from Miller. (those still believing even though he had profetized something wrong)… and then they followed EGW.

Right? Or am I wrong? Please let me know, I don’t want to say something wrong.

But then, wouldn’t Adventists have a “false profet” base? Especially if they still believe what Miller also believed then…

Please let me know what you think. I am trying to understand what Adventists truly believe about their faith. Thanks!

Miller believed that what was being talked about was Jesus 2nd comming. Obviously they were mistaken. They went back and reread and prayed over it and that is when they discovered that it is talking of the literal day of atonement (at-one-ment) or the day of judgement.

BTW adventists believe that this time is prophesized in the bible.

Rev.10
8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

 

[ryanoneil]

This might also help.

Douay-Rheims Bible footnote for Daniel 8:14 : Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days… That is, six years and almost four months: which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death. (Challoner)

I’ve also heard the suggestion that the 2,300 evenings and mornings should be understood as 1,150 days because there were two sacrifices per day - the first in the evening and the second in the morning.

(1 Maccabees 1:54; 4:52) indicates that the actual period of the Temple’s desecration lasted three solar years and eight days (a period of just over 1,100 days). It could be that something related to the giving over of the host to Antiochus (Dan 8:13) makes up for the missing days, but what ever that would be has been lost to history. It is not an exact match, but it is interesting.

 

[barboza21]

Yes.

Yes.

Have you seen the son of man come in the clouds of heaven, barboza? Of coarse Jesus was seated at the right hand of His Father way before 1844. But Dan. 8:14 is talking about Jesus entering the Holy of Holies for a very specific purpose. That purpose would be as our High Priest, our Propitiation, In 1844 He entered the Holy of Holies to minister His blood on our behalf before the throne of His Father. In other words the real “Day of Atonement” had begun, the time in which the sanctuary would be cleansed, the time of judgement talked about in
Rev.14
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This whole thing is explained in much detail in Heb.7-10

Miller believed that what was being talked about was Jesus 2nd comming. Obviously they were mistaken. They went back and reread and prayed over it and that is when they discovered that it is talking of the literal day of atonement (at-one-ment) or the day of judgement.

BTW adventists believe that this time is prophesized in the bible.

Rev.10
8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
10And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

I’m not fully grasping what you said in red above… Can you simplify it more or explain it further? please?

And what time are you refering to in green?

Either way, if they had profesized wrong… wouldn’t they be false profets??

And also, is it true how i said it last time? that after miller’s great dissappontment, his followers still believed? and then they became adventists?

I ask you because I read it in other sites and i jsut want to make sure what I am reading is correct…

 

[ryanoneil]

In 1844 He entered the Holy of Holies to minister His blood on our behalf before the throne of His Father. In other words the real “Day of Atonement” had begun, the time in which the sanctuary would be cleansed

This whole thing is explained in much detail in Heb.7-10

It happened when Christ Ascended to heaven.

**The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. (Heb 8:1-2)

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. (Heb 9:11-12)**

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I’m not fully grasping what you said in red above… Can you simplify it more or explain it further? please?

In the OT when men sinned and repented of thier sin there was a set ritual that they must perform to have their sins forgiven. Here is what they did.

Lev6
6And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest:
7And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Now this of coarse is a type, Jesus Christ being the antitype. The bringing of the animal to the priest is symbolic of our repentance and faith in Jesus. The OT person would bring the animal and symbolically transfer his sins to the animal, symbolic of Christ, the priest, also symbolic of Christ, would then make atonement for the sins of the individual by sprinkling the blood of the animal on the altar and pouring the remainder under the altar. On the day of Atonement once a year this ritual was performed for all the people but the high priest would enter the holy of holies to minister the blood of the LAMB OF GOD before the presence of God. This was symbolic of Jesus ministering His blood before the throne of God on our behalf.

And what time are you refering to in green?

Miller believed that what was being talked about was Jesus 2nd comming. Obviously they were mistaken. They went back and reread and prayed over it and that is when they discovered that it is talking of the literal day of atonement (at-one-ment) or the day of judgement.

This is the time I was talking about.

Either way, if they had profesized wrong… wouldn’t they be false profets??

They weren’t prophecizing. They were trying to interpret prophecy.

And also, is it true how i said it last time? that after miller’s great dissappontment, his followers still believed? and then they became adventists?

I ask you because I read it in other sites and i jsut want to make sure what I am reading is correct…

They obviously didn’t believe that Jesus was comming in 1844 because He didn’t. Some fell away and either started or joined other denominations. Others saw that because Jesus did not come did not negate the fact of the prophecy. So with prayer and more study they came to the correct conclusion that the day of judgement was starting in heaven.

 

[catsrus]

All this adventisitism sounds remarkably like the jws which I believe also sprang from Miller.
The jws are always date setting.

 

[barboza21]

On the day of Atonement once a year this ritual was performed for all the people but the high priest would enter the holy of holies to minister the blood of the LAMB OF GOD before the presence of God. This was symbolic of Jesus ministering His blood before the throne of God on our behalf.

Miller believed that what was being talked about was Jesus 2nd comming. Obviously they were mistaken.

…
They obviously didn’t believe that Jesus was comming in 1844 because He didn’t. .

They did think (Jesus was coming) at some point, or they would have never said it, or been dissapointed when it didn’t happen…

So you think thats what Rev 10:8-11 was talking about?
My bible says:

8Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: “Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.”
9So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” 10I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. Ref. Ez. 2:8-3:10 ] (which reads as follows: )

8“Now you, son of man, listen to what I am speaking to you; do not be rebellious like that rebellious house. Open your mouth and eat what I am giving you.” 9Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me; and lo, a scroll was in it. 10When He spread it out before me, it was written on the front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning and woe. 3 1Then He said to me, “Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” 2 So I opened my mouth, and He fed me this scroll. 3He said to me, “Son of man, feed your stomach and fill your body with this scroll which I am giving you.” Then I ate it, and it was sweet as honey in my mouth.
4Then He said to me, “Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. 5“For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, 6nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; 7yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate. 8“Behold, I have made your face as hard as their faces and your forehead as hard as their foreheads. 9“Like emery harder than flint I have made your forehead. Do not be afraid of them or be dismayed before them, though they are a rebellious house.” 10Moreover, He said to me, “Son of man, take into your heart all My words which I will speak to you and listen closely. 11“Go to the exiles, to the sons of your people, and speak to them and tell them, whether they listen or not, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD.’”

(Rev continues)
11Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.” [similar to Jer. 1:10] :

10today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant.”

It happened when Christ Ascended to heaven.

**The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. (Heb 8:1-2)

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. (Heb 9:11-12)**

Exactly.

Heb 9:15: For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Heb 10:1-4
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

19-22
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

It all goes together.

FYI
Sometimes it’s dificult to understand the way scripture is interprted because my bible is in spanish and I am used to the bible words and references and such–in the spanish language. makes me have to re ead passages sometimes. ")

 

[Richard_Kastner]

They did think (Jesus was coming) at some point, or they would have never said it, or been dissapointed when it didn’t happen…

They obviously didn’t believe that Jesus was comming in 1844 because He didn’t. .

I worded this wrongly. It should have been, They obviously didn’t believe that Jesus was comming after 1844 because He didn’t. They were however left with the prophecy itself, which if you do the math leads us to 1844.

So you think thats what Rev 10:8-11 was talking about?

Yes.

Exactly.

Heb 9:15: For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Heb 10:1-4
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

19-22
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

It all goes together.

Well you certainly can believe what you want. Consider these.
Acts17
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts24
25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Rom.2
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Heb.10
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

These texts have one thig in common and that is that they are all found in the New Testament which was written anywere from 60 to 100 AD and they speak of the judgement as being in the future. So it absolutely could not have happened at the cross.

 

[barboza21]

Well you certainly can believe what you want. Consider these.

Acts17
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts24
25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Rom.2
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Heb.10
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

These texts have one thig in common and that is that they are all found in the New Testament which was written anywere from 60 to 100 AD and they speak of the judgement as being in the future. So it absolutely could not have happened at the cross.

Well yeah I guess you can believe what you want, too. However, we can’t both be right… But what do you think that means? Heb 8:1-2 and Heb. 9:11-12.

(11) When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made (the sanctuary, right? it is greater and perfect and NOT MAN_MADE) , that is to say, not a part of this creation.

(12) He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. So… he entered how? by his own blood… and when was that? when he died on the cross for us… he shed his blood for us… no?

Heb. 9:24
Christ did not enter a **man-made sanctuary ** (like it says in Heb. 9:11 up there) that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Might the man-made sanctuary mean the ones where the high priest would enter every year?
Heb. 9:25. did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

i can only see one way of understanding this. but you said I can believe what I WANT. Its not that I WANT to believe t this way. I just don’t see it any other way. It’s weird because we’re reading the same bible and come to different conclusions. I wonder what the writer actually meant to say…?

Can you explain how you and your church or your faith sees this? Thanks in advance.

Yes, ACts 17:31 says he has a day… the day he will come again to judge the living and the dead… and Jesus will judge.
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(the second coming of jesus christ) 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
So the Lord will come AGAIN, and somehow people will be ‘taken’ and others ‘left’. They will be judged when he comes. Yes, at the second coming…

Judgement happened at the cross. John 12:31
Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” 33He said this to show *the kind of death he was going to die. *
He said it to show the kind of death… and he died on the cross:. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out

Why would he have said Now is the time?
What do you think it means?

What about Matt. 27:
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
What does all this mean? why were they ressurected and went into the holy city?

Luke 23
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.f”
43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

why would the criminal be with Jesus in Paradise?
Please let me know. Sometimes i think it’s impossible that people can understand things differently when they are so clear. But it happens. SO please let me hear your understading of these texts in scripture. and answer the questions I have asked… as I have answered yours. ")

 

[Richard_Kastner]

yeah I guess you can believe what you want, too. However, we can’t both be right… But what do you think that means? Heb 8:1-2 and Heb. 9:11-12.

(11) When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made (the sanctuary, right? it is greater and perfect and NOT MAN_MADE) , that is to say, not a part of this creation.

(12) He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. So… he entered how? by his own blood… and when was that? when he died on the cross for us… he shed his blood for us… no?
Heb. 9:24
Christ did not enter a **man-made sanctuary ** (like it says in Heb. 9:11 up there) that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Might the man-made sanctuary mean the ones where the high priest would enter every year?
Heb. 9:25. did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

i can only see one way of understanding this. but you said I can believe what I WANT. Its not that I WANT to believe t this way. I just don’t see it any other way. It’s weird because we’re reading the same bible and come to different conclusions. I wonder what the writer actually meant to say…?

Can you explain how you and your church or your faith sees this? Thanks in advance.

Hebrews 8
1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Ok, so the earthly sanctuary is a type for the sanctuary which is in heaven. Consider what Ellen White says in The Great Controversy

Important truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service. A substitute was accepted in the sinner’s stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people.

Such was the service performed “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things.” And what was done in type in the ministration of the earthly sanctuary is done in reality in the ministration of the heavenly sanctuary. After His ascension our Saviour began His work as our high priest. Says Paul: “Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” Hebrews 9:24.

The ministration of the priest throughout the year in the first apartment of the sanctuary, “within the veil” which formed the door and separated the holy place from the outer court, represents the work of ministration upon which Christ entered at His ascension. It was the work of the priest in the

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daily ministration to present before God the blood of the sin offering, also the incense which ascended with the prayers of Israel. So did Christ plead His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners, and present before Him also, with the precious fragrance of His own righteousness, the prayers of penitent believers. Such was the work of ministration in the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven.

Thither the faith of Christ’s disciples followed Him as He ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, “which hope we have,” said Paul, “as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.” “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ’s work for the redemption of men is completed there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of His solemn work–to cleanse the sanctuary…

So, at Jesus resurrection, He entered the first compartment to minister His blood. This was a beginning ministry and continued for 18 centuries until 1844 when Christ entered the second compartment, the most holy place to finish the work of judjement. This judjement will be completed when the sins of the repentant sinners are once and for all placed back on the originator of sin.