What does Eastern Orthodoxy offer that Eastern Catholicism doesn't?

[Peter_J]

Nine_Two, do you have a personal opinion regarding the notion that grace is conferred via the catholic sacraments?

Nine Two, what’s your opinion on whatever Joe371 had for breakfast this morning?

(I’m being intentionally silly, obviously, but** that’s kind of what that question is like…)**

Hmmm … Bit of a stretch. shaw:

 

[josie_L]

In my experience that is true. Many will accept Catholic baptisms through economy. But some (in my experience, especially ROCOR), will baptize Catholics again.

The ROC (Russian Orthodox Church) do recognize our sacraments/mysteries as grace-filled, i.e., they believe they are valid (the ROCOR doesn’t).

"To all intent and purposes, mutual recognition of each others Mysteries already exists between us. We do not have communion in the Mysteries, but we do recognize each others Mysteries”, declared Archbishop Hilarion (Alfeev) on the air during a broadcast of the program “The Church and the World” on the television channel “Russia”, on October 17th (video and text, vera.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=237432).

“If a Roman Catholic priest converts to Orthodoxy, we receive him as a priest, and we do not re-ordain him. And that means that, de facto, we recognize the Mysteries of the Roman Catholic Church”, explained Archbishop Hilarion.

Responding to the question of whether Roman Catholics can receive Communion from the Orthodox, or Orthodox Christians from the Roman Catholics, Archbishop Hilarion said that such giving of Communion should not take place, inasmuch as “eucharistic communion has been broken” between the Orthodox and Roman Catholics. But, at the same time, he made clear that in some cases such Communion is possible: “Exceptional cases occur, when, for example, a Roman Catholic is dying in some town where there is no Roman Catholic priest at all in the vicinity. So he asks an Orthodox priest to come. Then in such a case, I think, the Orthodox priest should go and give Communion to that person.”

eirenikon.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/archbishop-hilarion-alfeev-on-catholic-sacraments/

I also believe the Syrian Orthodox Church considers our sacraments as valid or grace-filled, in certain parts I am told Catholics and Orthodox even commune together.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmmm … Bit of a stretch. shaw:

So you may think, but what does it matter what we think of the things that others eat to sustain their lives unless we’re eating them as well?

I doubt curiosity would kill anyone in this case, but trust me when I tell you that the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the world have probably never bothered with such questions. When you get big pronouncements they’re generally from hyperdox internet people. For me it’s enough to remember what the people at my own church reminded me before I went home to California a few Christmases ago (where there are only EO churches, so they meant this with regards to the Byzantines, but it just as easily applies to the RC): “We don’t commune with them.” That’s really all that matters, even if every Orthodox Christian you meet has an answer to Joe371’s question.

I mean, really, I doubt that you as a Melkite Catholic have ever bothered to wonder whether or not a Methodist Eucharist (if there is such a thing) “has grace” or not…and if you have, get a new hobby. You’ll live longer.

 

[joe371]

So you may think, but what does it matter what we think of the things that others eat to sustain their lives unless we’re eating them as well?

I doubt curiosity would kill anyone in this case, but trust me when I tell you that the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the world have probably never bothered with such questions. When you get big pronouncements they’re generally from hyperdox internet people. For me it’s enough to remember what the people at my own church reminded me before I went home to California a few Christmases ago (where there are only EO churches, so they meant this with regards to the Byzantines, but it just as easily applies to the RC): “We don’t commune with them.” That’s really all that matters, even if every Orthodox Christian you meet has an answer to Joe371’s question.

I mean, really, I doubt that you as a Melkite Catholic have ever bothered to wonder whether or not a Methodist Eucharist (if there is such a thing) “has grace” or not…and if you have, get a new hobby. You’ll live longer.

Well, with that kind of perspective it surely seems that the east–west schism is here to stay.

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine Two, what’s your opinion on whatever Joe371 had for breakfast this morning?

(I’m being intentionally silly, obviously, but that’s kind of what that question is like…)

While I could guess with fair accuracy what he had if he was Orthodox, I’m afraid I lack the touch when dealing with Catholics.

But I think there is a strong likelyhood he went to church this morning, and he doesn’t seem the type to be getting up too early, so he probably had something quick. So bacon and eggs are out. Porridge is possible, although I’m leaning toward cold cereal and a glass of orange juice.

This is my opinion on the matter and I will not be swayed!

 

[Nine_Two]

Well, if he does not want to answer, that’s cool…:shrug:By the way I had eggs for breakfast…

No you didn’t. My opinion stands!

I should have kept reading before I replied.

In answer to your actual question though, I do have an opinion, but as Dzheremi implied with his question, my opinion on the matter doesn’t mean a whole lot in the face of reality. Where and how God spreads his grace is not something I can claim to have knowledge about, and I can only form an opinion based on limited experience.

 

[joe371]

While I could guess with fair accuracy what he had if he was Orthodox, I’m afraid I lack the touch when dealing with Catholics.

But I think there is a strong likelyhood he went to church this morning, and he doesn’t seem the type to be getting up too early, so he probably had something quick. So bacon and eggs are out. Porridge is possible, although I’m leaning toward cold cereal and a glass of orange juice.

This is my opinion on the matter and I will not be swayed!

and eggs…

 

[joe371]

What does Eastern Orthodoxy offer that Eastern Catholicism doesn’t?

Some EO Christians would suggest that Eastern Catholicism is missing the sacraments aka the holy mysteries… Others simply will not say one way or the other. They seem more interested in discussing breakfast…LOL…

 

[dzheremi]

Well, with that kind of perspective it surely seems that the east–west schism is here to stay.

I can’t see how, since I am not a participant in the East-West schism, and anyway it is precisely because the reality of that schism that your question can be treated as I have. It is really this simple: No Orthodox Christian of any particular jurisdiction or tradition is likely to see much use in speculating about the nature of sacraments which they have no intention of ever partaking in, and in the event that this reality changes on a Church-wide level (not through pastoral agreements, which do not establish communion), then speculation will still not be necessary or helpful, since the Orthodox don’t speculate regarding their own sacraments, either.

It might help in the future to consider how the Orthodox generally see the faith as being based/rooted more in experience than in epistemological certainty, but I suppose that might be a bit too abstract if you’re looking instead for a yes or no answer (though it could help you to understand why you’re not likely to get one).

 

[joe371]

I can’t see how, since I am not a participant in the East-West schism, and anyway it is precisely because the reality of that schism that your question can be treated as I have. It is really this simple: No Orthodox Christian of any particular jurisdiction or tradition is likely to see much use in speculating about the nature of sacraments which they have no intention of ever partaking in, and in the even that this reality changes on a Church-wide level (not through pastoral agreements, which do not establish communion), then speculation will still not be necessary or helpful, since the Orthodox don’t speculate regarding their own sacraments, either.

It might help in the future to consider how the Orthodox generally see the faith as being based/rooted more in experience than in epistemological certainty, but I suppose that might be a bit too abstract if you’re looking instead for a yes or no answer (though it could help you to understand why you’re not likely to get one).

Well, if you see no use in speculating about the nature of the sacraments, then we will leave it at that…The CC has apostolic pedigree and a valid priesthood, so I am fairly sure I know what your answer would be…

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. As I’ve tried to point out in other posts in this thread, when you say that the RCC has “a valid priesthood” and “apostolic pedigree”, you are certainly speaking well within your own tradition and its way of conceiving of itself, which is all fine. You might run into problems with others outside of your communion, however, if it is expected that they hold similar opinions, or express any opinions they do express in a similar manner.

But I’ll stop harping on this point, since it’s apparently not having the intended effect.

 

[joe371]

dzheremi;11829352]Hmm. As I’ve tried to point out in other posts in this thread, when you say that the RCC has “a valid priesthood” and “apostolic pedigree”, you are certainly speaking well within your own tradition and its way of conceiving of itself, which is all fine.

Right back atcha…

You might run into problems with others outside of your communion, however, if it is expected that they hold similar opinions, or express any opinions they do express in a similar manner.

Are you talking about the protestant churches outside of my communion?

But I’ll stop harping on this point, since it’s apparently not having the intended effect.

I know of no protestant churches that have apostolic pedigree…So that narrows the list down significantly…Your point landed…

 

[dzheremi]

Are you talking about the protestant churches outside of my communion?

No. I was talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church, since you originally posted some time ago that you assumed that the EO see RC sacraments as “valid” (or that you were sad to find that they didn’t or something like that; sorry, it was a few pages ago…I trust you would recognize what I am referring to). It stands to reason that as they don’t conceive of sacraments in terms of “validity” (nor, I would suspect, of “apostolic pedigree” as something separate from having preserved the apostolic faith down to our own day), such ideas have extremely limited currency.

Or, I suppose, since you wrote “I am fairly sure I know what your answer would be”, referring to me, the same can be said of the Oriental Orthodox Church, since we don’t think of sacraments as “valid” or “invalid”, either (though such terminology may be used in English, unwisely). This was my point in bringing up what the people at my church told me before I went to visit an area with only EO churches: “We don’t commune with them” – not “they don’t have valid sacraments” or “they don’t have apostolic pedigree”, but simply “We don’t commune with them.” That is all that an Orthodox believer needs to keep in mind when considering the sacraments of other churches. Are we in communion or not? If not, then it doesn’t matter if their sacraments are conceived of in some quarters as being “valid” or not. If we are, then…it doesn’t matter if their sacraments are conceived of in some quarters as being “valid” or not. Such things simply have no meaning outside of the RCC, since it is the only church that seems to look at Christianity in these terms.

I know of no protestant churches that have apostolic pedigree…So that narrows the list down significantly…Your point landed…

I’m not sure it did, but again, I’ll drop this point. You already got one more post on it out of me than I had intended! (Because I know you’re just asking out of curiosity and using the terms you know to use when talking about these things, so there’s no harm done either way. Sorry I can’t make this point clear enough, apparently.)

 

[joe371]

No. I was talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church, since you originally posted some time ago that you assumed that the EO see RC sacraments as “valid” (or that you were sad to find that they didn’t or something like that; sorry, it was a few pages ago…I trust you would recognize what I am referring to). It stands to reason that as they don’t conceive of sacraments in terms of “validity” (nor, I would suspect, of “apostolic pedigree” as something separate from having preserved the apostolic faith down to our own day), such ideas have extremely limited currency.

Or, I suppose, since you wrote “I am fairly sure I know what your answer would be”, referring to me, the same can be said of the Oriental Orthodox Church, since we don’t think of sacraments as “valid” or “invalid”, either (though such terminology may be used in English, unwisely). This was my point in bringing up what the people at my church told me before I went to visit an area with only EO churches: “We don’t commune with them” – not “they don’t have valid sacraments” or “they don’t have apostolic pedigree”, but simply “We don’t commune with them.” That is all that an Orthodox believer needs to keep in mind when considering the sacraments of other churches. Are we in communion or not? If not, then it doesn’t matter if their sacraments are conceived of in some quarters as being “valid” or not. If we are, then…it doesn’t matter if their sacraments are conceived of in some quarters as being “valid” or not. Such things simply have no meaning outside of the RCC, since it is the only church that seems to look at Christianity in these terms.

I’m not sure it did, but again, I’ll drop this point. You already got one more post on it out of me than I had intended! (Because I know you’re just asking out of curiosity and using the terms you know to use when talking about these things, so there’s no harm done either way. Sorry I can’t make this point clear enough, apparently.)

 

[Peter_J]

So you may think, but what does it matter what we think of the things that others eat to sustain their lives unless we’re eating them as well?

I doubt curiosity would kill anyone in this case, but trust me when I tell you that the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in the world have probably never bothered with such questions. When you get big pronouncements they’re generally from hyperdox internet people. For me it’s enough to remember what the people at my own church reminded me before I went home to California a few Christmases ago (where there are only EO churches, so they meant this with regards to the Byzantines, but it just as easily applies to the RC): “We don’t commune with them.” That’s really all that matters, even if every Orthodox Christian you meet has an answer to Joe371’s question.

I mean, really, I doubt that you as a Melkite Catholic have ever bothered to wonder whether or not a Methodist Eucharist (if there is such a thing) “has grace” or not…and if you have, get a new hobby. You’ll live longer.

Well, with that kind of perspective it surely seems that the east–west schism is here to stay.

It’s alright, really. Truth is, I’ve tried to find another hobby, but without success.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. I guess posting on CAF could count as a hobby, right? You’re very good at that. If they gave out merit badges, you’d definitely have earned one.

 

[Nine_Two]

I once thought it would be a fun hobby to collect old globes.

But then I realized how much space that would take up, and I’m not rich, so I abandoned my idea. Good thing my collection was at 0.

 

[dzheremi]

That would be pretty cool, if you had a lot of space and money.

In my teens, I collected random guitars. Nothing very valuable, but I liked going to flea markets and such to pick up whatever strange off-brand or homemade stuff I could find (one thing I passed on, as an example: a homemade guitar with an actual sea tortoise shell for back of the body…pretty sure that’s illegal). Only got up to 8 or so before I stopped, but I sold them off piece by piece in my mid-20s for a couple grand. Not bad, considering that I never paid more than $150 for any particular one (usually much less).

 

[Peter_J]

Hmm. I guess posting on CAF could count as a hobby, right? You’re very good at that. If they gave out merit badges, you’d definitely have earned one.

 

[MichaelinMD]

I once thought it would be a fun hobby to collect old globes.

But then I realized how much space that would take up, and I’m not rich, so I abandoned my idea. Good thing my collection was at 0.

As a kid I collected maps. Mostly AAA road maps, but others as well. Unfortunately, that never panned out to me being a collector of antiquarian maps, etc. Anyway, point is, maps take up much less space than globes.