What does Faith Without Works mean?

[JonNC]

I have also read that Luther was very anti-Jewish and that the Nazi’s got many of their ideas from Luther.

Is this also true?

On th first part, you said this well. Luther, in his later life, sadly wrote things that were clearly anti-Jewish, as opposed to anti-semitic which is what the Nazi’s were.
It is also a fact that many of Luther’s era, including Eck, were equally anti-Jewish. Tt was an element of the time. That’s not an excuse, however, for Luther or Eck.

Jon

 

[vanlab2005]

Didn’t Jesus said that a good tree cannot bear bad fruits ? If you claim to have faith in god, yet you continues to sin and rebel against his commandments how can you say that you are a good tree ? How could a good tree bear bad fruits ?

This is where I disagree with Luther. If faith is all that you need for salvation then wouldn’t the demons would be the first to be save since they have no doubt that Jesus was the son of god ? In my opinion, because the demons have faith in Jesus but they are not “faithful” to his teaching and commandments so despite their faith, demons, they cannot be save and the same probably is true for “Christians” who thinks that they can have “faith” in Jesus, continues to live in sin without repentant and still goes to heaven.

 

[Juliebug108]

In what way do we access justification? Simply by grace through faith, and not by works. It is as gift of God.
Luther said:

"We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith. “Without works” is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works.”

Jon

So justification is by faith…

but Luther even agreed that true faith cannot exist without works…

Therefore…No works = no faith (or as Luther put it, non-efficacious faith), and no faith = no salvation.

It seems pretty clear to me that it is both faith and works. Luther contradicts himself in saying faith alone. IMO anyway.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Hiskid1973
Do we have true faith?..Our those weak in faith or immature still saved ?

IF, IF there is a way for us to know we have true faith; it seems to me that to things must be present.

God allows those who have right understanding a great sense of calm and pease, even amist great struggles. Either God is in charge or I am in charge. No splits, no sharing. God or me?

Secondly; it seems to me completly logical that God founded only One Church; One Faith based on One new Covenant in His blood. So for one to have TRUE Faith one must be of the One True Faith; Catholism. There are over 100 referenes to ONLY one Church in the NT; and no where in the entire bible does God speak of desireing more than One God, Faith and Church.

Outside of the CC salvation may be possible but it is always VERY uncertain. Catholics can know factually that there sins are forgiven because we follow the commands of Jesus in 1 Jn.1:8-10; 1 Jn.5:16-17 and John 20:19-23. Only the CC has indulgences for the necessary payback of sins; an only Catholics have access to Sacramental grace.

**Eph. 3: 9-10 **“And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God **who created all things; that through the church [singular] **the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,"

** Eph. 4: 1-7 “I** therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."

** John.10: 16** “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

And that my dear frind in Christ is how…

God Bless,
Pat

 

[JonNC]

Yeah you’re right about that.

However, Luther still had an issue that Purgatory even existed. He may never have gone to the extent of reforming though.

This may not necessarily be the case. Luther’s largest concern was with those things that had grown up around the doctrine of Purgatory.
*“When they have given up their purgatorial ‘Mass fairs’ (something Augustine never dreamed of) , then we will discuss with them whether St. Augustine’s word, lacking support from Scripture, may be tolerated and whether the dead may be commemorated at the sacrament. It will not do to formulate articles of faith on the basis of the holy Fathers’ works or words.” *

The recent Lutheran/Catholic dailogue on the subject :
usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

Jon

 

[jpjd]

I always thought that Protestants viewed our sacramental system as “works”. We believe we are sanctified through reception of the sacraments, but they think sacraments are “works” which we believe we have to do to be saved. In other words, they feel that once they’ve had their “born again” moment, they are saved, and anything further (such as our sacraments) is works.

Tell that to Jesus, who instituted the seven sacraments.

 

[JonNC]

I always thought that Protestants viewed our sacramental system as “works”. We believe we are sanctified through reception of the sacraments, but they think sacraments are “works” which we believe we have to do to be saved. In other words, they feel that once they’ve had their “born again” moment, they are saved, and anything further (such as our sacraments) is works.

Tell that to Jesus, who instituted the seven sacraments.

No, the sacraments of gifts, in which we participate. They are not our works, but Christ’s, provided for the forgiveness of sins, and our growth in grace. They are not works.

Jon

 

[jpjd]

No, the sacraments of gifts, in which we participate. They are not our works, but Christ’s, provided for the forgiveness of sins, and our growth in grace. They are not works.

Jon

Yes, I know that. I’m saying, in reference to the OP’s question, that I think Protestants believe they are works and that is what they are referring to when they say Catholics believe they are saved by their works.

 

[Pretty_Wings]

Yes, I know that. I’m saying, in reference to the OP’s question, that I think Protestants believe they are works and that is what they are referring to when they say Catholics believe they are saved by their works.

Um no, I’m Protestant, Pentecostal really and we don’t believe that. We know the sacraments aren’t work, we see them as rituals. We know what “works” are. We just don’t believe in works for salvation. We believe doing works is part of being a Christian but we don’t believe that is required for Salvation. The only thing required for Salvation is believing in John 3:16.

 

[flyonthewall]

Faith without works is just the beginning. Works do not follow faith, faith is not complete without works. You cannot separate faith and works as they go together.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I always thought that Protestants viewed our sacramental system as “works”. We believe we are sanctified through reception of the sacraments, but they think sacraments are “works” which we believe we have to do to be saved. In other words, they feel that once they’ve had their “born again” moment, they are saved, and anything further (such as our sacraments) is works.

Tell that to Jesus, who instituted the seven sacraments.

I don’t think you can lump all Protestants together under one belief or view. Some have retained the a sacramental element while others reject even baptism as an unnecessary “work”.

 

[thomasf]

There is a view among some/many protestants that Catholics believe that we must do good works to earn our way, or merit our way into heaven. This is not true. Catholics believe that doing good works, helping others, is part of the faith. At least those catholics who know their faith. Is this part of salvation? Jesus seemed to think so when He said whatever we do for the least we do for Him, and told us that those that did nothing would be cast away.

I too believe that I can never do enough to merit my salvation, because I can’t. I feel that no matter what I do for others there is more for me to do. I understand how Luther felt. He also was pretty upset about the selling of indulgences and those abuses. I can understand how he would feel that we can’t earn or merit our way to salvation.

But, part of our faith is good works and doing for others. It’s simply not enough to have faith alone, as James tells us. By doing good works we are not earning or meriting salvation, but following what Jesus commanded us to do as part of the faith.

 

[PJM]

=JonNC;7788824]This may not necessarily be the case. Luther’s largest concern was with those things that had grown up around the doctrine of Purgatory.
*“When they have given up their purgatorial ‘Mass fairs’ (something Augustine never dreamed of) , then we will discuss with them whether St. Augustine’s word, lacking support from Scripture, may be tolerated and whether the dead may be commemorated at the sacrament. It will not do to formulate articles of faith on the basis of the holy Fathers’ works or words.” *

The recent Lutheran/Catholic dailogue on the subject :
usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

Jon

Hi Jon, may I please interject a few thoughts,

Luther is seems was not either fully an correctly taught; or simply rejected [much more likely] some of the teachings of the CC.

The whole issue and lack of understanding of the CC positions [and therefore God’s OWN]on the topic seems to me to be based on either an incomplete understanding or a false understanding of Who and WHAT God is. Speaking of the Divine Nature and natural attributes that a God IN-ORDER-TO -BE GOD must possess both completely and perfectely.

God can be defined as “All Good [and only Good] things perfected.”

Protestant for reasons I don’t **fully **understand tend to stress God’s most evident Love, mercy and Compassion; BUT seldom does one see them speak out the absolute necessity for God to alo be Fair and Just.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Such a position is not biblically supportable.

If person A kills someone and person B steals $1.00 and both die before and w/o confession, repentence and contrition; God cannot and most certainly willnot judge them the same.

Person iA is Hell Bound and person B is Purhatory bound [assuming here no other sin issues]…

Once restitution is made according to God’s Judgement; person B [now as is necessary; perfected, for no one unperfected can enter into heaven, can then have been “made perfect” by God through Purgatory, can get to heaven.

Sin has two effects; both require a complete payback. In the case of person B, such would have been advised to pay-back the $1.00. BUT in addition to that **all sins have a public aspect to them in that they harm the church and the community.
These “latent” necessary pay-backs are the primary reason for PURGATORY and the precise reason God created in out of and through God’s Love, Compassion an Mercy.

**Rev. 21: 27 **“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”/B] Matt.5: 26 “**truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.”

It seems both reasonable and logical that this be so.

God Bless,

Pat**