What does freedom mean to a Muslim

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ahmadhassan said:
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ahmadhassan
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And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). **But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) **
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)
Note that the above quote states that polytheists can be fought even if they no wrong-doers. Don’t Muslims consider Christians to be polytheists because we believe in the Trinity? So that means that Christians (by the Muslim interpretation of the trinity) and all polytheists are to be fought whether or not they are wrong-doers or aggressors.
Also you translated Az-Zalimoon as “the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.” so what besides polytheists and wrong-doers are in that list of those who are to be fought against?

On the surface the above quote seems to contradict itself. NO the one hand it says to fight until Islam controls the earth, on the other hand is seems to say that Muslims have to stop fighting for Islam if non-Muslims are non-aggressors. But that contradiction is solved and clarified by throwing in that transgression is always allowed against **polytheists, etc. of course we do need to know who falls into the ‘etc’ catalogy.
**
 
ahmadhassan said:
**But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) **( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)
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How do they cease? The only way I can see is if “they” either accept Islam or accept to be under Islamic control (be subdued). If the do not cease then the first sentence applies still…right?

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone).
 
if you put the verse in context you will understand that cease is referring to stop fighting muslims

((2:191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [1] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[2] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
Code: 
 192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[3] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers)))
 
hamba2han said:
Do you think that Muslims have no desire at all to do the things that non-Muslims (and some Muslims as well) do like partying all night long and various other things that they seem to do with such obvious enjoyment?

Acts of worship like praying 5 times a day, fasting all-day long for a whole month, compulsory charity and going on pilgrimage to Makkah are major impediments to the freedom of Muslims to be able to do whatever we wish to do and whenever we want to so long as it is legal.

This is generally what is meant when the Prophet (pbuh) said: "This world is a prison for the believer and a paradise for the unbeliever."

Being Muslims however, we choose to submit our desires and our “freedom” in this world to the will of Allah and therefore we do what He has commanded us to do and refrain from doing whatever He has forbidden for us.
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So the freedom you talked about is giving up things like partying all night or other things that non-Muslims and other Muslims do with such obvious enjoyment? I’m speechless!

Is this your concept of what freedom really is?? How about freedom of religion and freedom of speech?

According to the second part of your original statement, does it mean that you’ll be able to do all those things in paradise that you’re giving up here on earth?

Vickie
 
I must say, the responses from the Muslims have been pretty respectful (well, paarsurrey’s always a rather peaceable sort, but hamba2ham and ahmedhassan are often pretty argumentative) even with the language barrier, and even with some of the very uncharitable challenges from some of the Christians. And Booklover, good show for actually asking them how they feel! 🙂

From what I hear, Catholics and Muslims have an awful lot more in common than many of you would like to think. Of course, this is my point of view, which is probably equally unwelcome to both groups. :o

I’m interested in hearing more about what ‘freedom’ means to all of you, since it really is such an individual thing, no matter your faith. Hoping we hear from Tawheedah too; she’s very cool!
 
Booklover said:
Is this your concept of what freedom really is?? How about freedom of religion and freedom of speech?

According to the second part of your original statement, does it mean that you’ll be able to do all those things in paradise that you’re giving up here on earth?
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Freedom of religion is indeed found in the Qur’an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things… 002.256

However, freedom of religion is only significant while we are still alive and it becomes quite meaningless once we die.

The happiness and bliss that we shall enjoy in Paradise will be immensely more than anything that we have ever experienced while in this world and so no one can fully imagine the rewards that are in store for the righteous believer in the Hereafter.
 
ahmadhassan said:
can you prove that islam order us to do so? if a muslim did something bad who should we judge islam or that muslim?😉
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The only thing I can go by is what I see and read. Mosques being blown up, suicide bombers blowing themselves up in markets causing death and distraction to fellow Moslens. I haven’t heard any outcry from the Moslem leadership condemning the bombers nor have I heard anyone say these are extremists and don’t represent the true peace loving Moslems. When I see peace loving moslems marching in the streets of Baghdad in protest of the bombings I’ll rethink my opinion.
 
Harland said:
The only thing I can go by is what I see and read. Mosques being blown up, suicide bombers blowing themselves up in markets causing death and distraction to fellow Moslens. I haven’t heard any outcry from the Moslem leadership condemning the bombers nor have I heard anyone say these are extremists and don’t represent the true peace loving Moslems. When I see peace loving moslems marching in the streets of Baghdad in protest of the bombings I’ll rethink my opinion.
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so you wanna seek islam or seek muslims?
about not hearing condemn thats due to brainwashing by media like what happened with bush lies
 
I wish marching for peace was possible in Baghdad right now, but that wouldn’t be safe for anyone, considering how hostile the climate is there, between Muslim factions and American troops and so forth. But there have been plenty of huge Muslim marches and gatherings throughout the world over the situation there.

Marching for peace wasn’t a very wise thing to do in Saigon either, not so very long ago.
 
Tch, I looked, although briefly, and couldn’t find any such, but I went back and edited it for the reasons above. Also yes, such things might be occurring, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least, but it’s not easy to obtain such news from the area. 😦
 
ahmadhassan said:
so you wanna seek islam or seek muslims?
about not hearing condemn thats due to brainwashing by media like what happened with bush lies
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What is the differance? Aren’t Moslem believers in Islam? Like Christians are believers in Christ.

Please. Thats a red herring. We are talking about Moslem’s meaning of freedom. There has been lots of descution of what was known and not known in the American press and when it was known and you know it. Don’t change the subject.
 
To the Muslims on this thread, I have a few questions, and I would like to better understand something. 🙂
  1. Are you American Muslims who have lived here for many years, born here, etc, or are you located elsewhere. I guess I am asking for you nationality. I have often been told that an American Muslim is much different than a Muslim in the Middle East. The perspective and lifestyle is very different.
  2. How does the Koran justify the killing of innocent Muslims in Iraq or even in Palestine? Better yet, is that blamed on Israel?
  3. Why are women not allowed to drive?
I only wish to seek truth, and better understanding of Islam.
 
hamba2han said:
Freedom of religion is indeed found in the Qur’an:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things… 002.256

However, freedom of religion is only significant while we are still alive and it becomes quite meaningless once we die.

The happiness and bliss that we shall enjoy in Paradise will be immensely more than anything that we have ever experienced while in this world and so no one can fully imagine the rewards that are in store for the righteous believer in the Hereafter.
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And yet your Quran states that Allah does not accept any other religion but Islam! So the no compulsion in religion goes by the wayside when Muslims try to coerce non-Muslims into submission to Islam by force if necessary!

As to freedom of speech, it’s okay for Muslims to criticize other religions and so forth, but draw a cartoon of Muhammad or say something not complimentary to Islam and Muhammad and Muslims riot and stab nuns in the back and so forth. So that’s one-sided as well!

Tell me, what do you do for amusement? Are you allowed to do anything not related to religion?
 
ahmadhassan said:
why dont you say the reverse ? usa invaded iraq ,muslims are killed in shechania ,jews took land of muslims “palestine” when we do something to reback our land and resist occupation you call us terrorists open your eye
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A relativist you are. USA invaded Iraq sure. But when did we target innocent civilians? When did we purposefuly blow up mosques for the intent of destroying the mosque? When did we behead our prisoners? When did Al Qaeda pour billions of dollars into the Iraqi Infrastrcture. What you have said is Moral Equivalency = non-sense.

Palestinians of today weren’t ‘palestinians’ until the Jews got there and made their own Nation. Before they were called Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians. I dont think a people have a right to accuse another of taking their ‘ancestral homeland’ when the very name of the people wasn’t around until after Israel was its own country.

The west would view your culture different too if when you did try to ‘take back your land,’ you did it without; blowing up nightclubs, murdering olympic athletes, blowing up cafes, murdering prisoners of war, launching random missles into cities with no military value, calling Jews ‘pigs’ or ‘sons of monkeys’ , breaking your peace treaties, calling for the genocide of an entire country, kidnapped civilians, cheering in the streets when one of your suicide bombers blew up a wedding, beheading peace activists, beheading peace activists on camera, showing T.V stations beheadings on camera, funding your wars through illicit drug production, your leaders skimming 50% of monies donated by international aid really meant for your nation, hijacking planes, hijacking planes and crashing them into civilian buildings, blowing up airliners, blowing up airliners while saying ‘allah ackbad’, holding an elementary school hostage so you can free your buddies and killing lots of the children inside because you didn’t get your way, fighting with masks to hide your identity, the staged photoshoots of the ‘suffering of your people,’…

…and to top it off, if you could actually ackowledge the difference between the type of warfare practiced by the west (a la Iraq, Afghanistan) and the type practiced by those you are (in practicality due to your stance of moral equivalency) defending(al qaeda, hamas, hezbollah, taliban, etc., etc.) without equivocating.

We call you Terrorists because you target the weakest members of society who are not part of the War. AKA Civilians. What part of Civilians do you not understand. Do not target Civilians and you will not get called terrorists. No Civilians, Get it??? Fight with honor, fight as a man, facing another man. Not a Man facing a mother, child, etc. Only evil and Cowardly men want to kill women and children. Stop doing this then you will not get called a Terrorist. Get it now?
 
redmars3000 said:
A relativist you are. USA invaded Iraq sure. But when did we target innocent civilians? When did we purposefuly blow up mosques for the intent of destroying the mosque? When did we behead our prisoners? When did Al Qaeda pour billions of dollars into the Iraqi Infrastrcture. What you have said is Moral Equivalency = non-sense.

Palestinians of today weren’t ‘palestinians’ until the Jews got there and made their own Nation. Before they were called Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians. I dont think a people have a right to accuse another of taking their ‘ancestral homeland’ when the very name of the people wasn’t around until after Israel was its own country.

The west would view your culture different too if when you did try to ‘take back your land,’ you did it without; blowing up nightclubs, murdering olympic athletes, blowing up cafes, murdering prisoners of war, launching random missles into cities with no military value, calling Jews ‘pigs’ or ‘sons of monkeys’ , breaking your peace treaties, calling for the genocide of an entire country, kidnapped civilians, cheering in the streets when one of your suicide bombers blew up a wedding, beheading peace activists, beheading peace activists on camera, showing T.V stations beheadings on camera, funding your wars through illicit drug production, your leaders skimming 50% of monies donated by international aid really meant for your nation, hijacking planes, hijacking planes and crashing them into civilian buildings, blowing up airliners, blowing up airliners while saying ‘allah ackbad’, holding an elementary school hostage so you can free your buddies and killing lots of the children inside because you didn’t get your way, fighting with masks to hide your identity, the staged photoshoots of the ‘suffering of your people,’…

…and to top it off, if you could actually ackowledge the difference between the type of warfare practiced by the west (a la Iraq, Afghanistan) and the type practiced by those you are (in practicality due to your stance of moral equivalency) defending(al qaeda, hamas, hezbollah, taliban, etc., etc.) without equivocating.

We call you Terrorists because you target the weakest members of society who are not part of the War. AKA Civilians. What part of Civilians do you not understand. Do not target Civilians and you will not get called terrorists. No Civilians, Get it??? Fight with honor, fight as a man, facing another man. Not a Man facing a mother, child, etc. Only evil and Cowardly men want to kill women and children. Stop doing this then you will not get called a Terrorist. Get it now?
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👍 :clapping:

Vickie
 
redmars, you do know about google, don’t you? Iraqi civilians, especially women and children, have been killed in far greater numbers than US soldiers. As in, orders-of-magnitude greater. Look it up. You are not personally answerable for them necessarily as a Christian or a Catholic or even a US citizen…and neither are individual Muslims for atrocities done by members of their faith. Somehow, I feel personally responsible for all the killings, though I adhere to no religion. 😦
 
I do not seek to see all Muslims take responsibility for the actions of the few who do indeed do the actual killing. However, all Muslims who refuse to denounce the violence, or take a stand against the murder of innocents is indeed responsible for their silence.

While “googling” for information can indeed be a good idea, the context of the news stories found needs to be taken into account. All sources are not viable ones, example being is Rosie O’Donnell a viable source for information on 9/11?

Islamic terrorism has killed more than American soldiers will ever do. Those killed by car bombs in Iraq are sometimes innocent children or the elderly. Tell me how those people are a danger to Allah?

Those Muslims that blow up car bombs want to kill us. They do not care who you voted for in the last election, or what party of affiliation you claim to be part of. They want you dead. These terrorists will not stop until the entire world is under the submission of Islam.
 
kellicouch77 said:
To the Muslims on this thread, I have a few questions, and I would like to better understand something. 🙂
  1. Are you American Muslims who have lived here for many years, born here, etc, or are you located elsewhere. I guess I am asking for you nationality. I have often been told that an American Muslim is much different than a Muslim in the Middle East. The perspective and lifestyle is very different.
  2. How does the Koran justify the killing of innocent Muslims in Iraq or even in Palestine? Better yet, is that blamed on Israel?
  3. Why are women not allowed to drive?
I only wish to seek truth, and better understanding of Islam.
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where did you get that false things? here is a site explaining islam islamtomorrow.com
 
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