What does freedom mean to a Muslim

[redmars3000]

Please excuse me for being defensive, all day I had to “explain” myself for things that I never even said, so when you came along and did the same thing, well, I’d had enough of it.

Again, if you go back and read, the only reason I even used the term “westerners” is because the other poster brought it into the conversation.

Here’s a deduction for you, since you think I’m “judging” Westerners (including myself). No human is perfect or free from sins, whether minor or major. “Westerners” are humans. Therefore, Westerners sin.

I’ve already explained this. I wasn’t judging anyone. And I’m not going to explain this a fourth time.

Peace.

Judging Westerners was not even part of the debate until you brought into the conversation! Dont just shrug it off. You go back and read it, because I have, and I gave you a quote. Perhaps you forget what you typed. Being rude is only going to get people angry at you and your opinions.

Westerners are guilty of Original Sin yes. “Choosing to disobey God’s laws” now at this very moment is making a blanket statement. Which exact laws do the majority break? Tell me since u said you know. Where do you get the information from to form this judgement? That was the whole point of my asking for clarification.

 

[tawheedah]

Your faith in itself assesses Catholicism. How do you respect an apostate faith, as Islam declares Catholicism to be?

Because I do. I’m not a robot, I’m a person with a mind of my own.

What does your warner say about original sin? I thought everything that is needed to know is in the Quran. Why didn’t the messenger of allah explain the deadly sins and heavenly virtues so that you would not need to ask the People of the Book?

There are Muslims with degrees in religious studies. We are allowed to seek knowledge and information about other religions.

 

[tawheedah]

Judging Westerners was not even part of the debate until you brought into the conversation! Dont just shrug it off. You go back and read it, because I have, and I gave you a quote. Perhaps you forget what you typed. Being rude is only going to get people angry at you and your opinions.

Westerners are guilty of Original Sin yes. “Choosing to disobey God’s laws” now at this very moment is making a blanket statement. Which laws do they break? Tell me since u said you know?

I can use myself as an example. Choosing to disobey god’s laws. I shouldn’t curse, but I do that. Sometimes I skip a prayer. I don’t wear hijab all the time. I know that I should, but I don’t. So I choose to disobey God’s laws (for my beliefs).

Do I need to get into the 10 commandments and how many people on a daily basis disobey them? Or how about abortions? Birth control? Backbiting in Islam? Sex outside of marriage…

Perhaps I chose the wrong words originally, but I know what I meant and have since explained several times. Don’t tell me I’m being rude when I’ve calmly answered the same thing at least 2 times before I got a little aggravated by the rudeness thrown at me.

 

[Aprilbaby]

oh wow look at all the frayed nerves and misquoting and word changing.

The Torah, Bible, and Qur’an can all be misquoted truth be told

 

[Verisimilitude]

Because I do. I’m not a robot, I’m a person with a mind of my own.

OK, fair enough. I can respect that. If you can maintain that truth in your heart-it will reflect in your actions and words. This goes for me and everybody else.

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
Matthew 12:34-36 (in Context) Matthew 12 (Whole Chapter)

Man is being used as a universal term meaning any human, any gender.

There are Muslims with degrees in religious studies. We are allowed to seek knowledge and information about other religions.

I apologize for the edge in my posts. I do not like Muhammad as a historical or religious figure. I like less what has been done in his name or the god allah, but conclude Islam is a fair representation of the personal character of Muhammad to include the “radical” element. There is a reason they are called fundamentalists.

The defense of the man is nearly incomprehesable to me. The association of himself to Abraham, Moses, Solomon…is seen by me as an act of theift- of an honor they legitimately share that Muhammad does not deserve.

Yes, the Jews might say the same about Catholics with respect to Jesus. The difference is Jesus is legitimate. He was Jewish. Every prophet was. Islam even recognizes that fact. Other than a vision in a cave, what makes Muhammad legitimate? Was Muhammad Jewish? Is he legitimate through Ishmael back to Abraham? What did Abraham say to Ishmael and Hagar when he sent them away?

(Why isn’t Hagar mentioned in the Koran, and can you show how/when Abraham travelled so far south to Mekka after Ishmael was born? He was an old man.)

Muslims (and others) look at the number of faithfull as proof of it’s legitimacy. 1 in 6+ people on the planet are Muslim. 1 in 6+ are Catholic. Another 1 in 6+ are other Christians. Another 1 in 6 total the non-religious/agnostic/atheist, and then there are almost a billion Hindu’s. The last billion or so is everyone else. Jews make up less than one-fouth of 1% in the 6+ billion people on Earth- not even 13 million people are Jews today.

There are spiritual as well as physical reasons behind the facts. Truth shows herself to a sincere heart. There is a lot to know. Good luck in your study.

 

[Booklover]

Hi Vickie. When I hear the word “freedom” it makes me think of jail, prison. Being free in that sense, and having “free will”. T**here is free will in Islam to a certain extent, **because we choose whether we are going to follow the Quran and the Sunnah or if we are going to go against it. When I think of “freedom”, I think of the freedom to do as you please without consequence. Most people think that anything they do, if legal will be without consequence, but for a Muslim, there is consequence, not today, not in this dunya, but if I choose to go out and knowingliy commit sin after sin after sin after sin with no intention on ever stopping or repenting, then I will face consequences in Jennah/Paradise, the hereafter. So we choose to worship Allah 5 times a day, not to drink alcohol, not to party, not to have but 2 celebrations a year, not to dress however we want to dress… and when describing this to non-Muslims, they say “why are you putting yourself in prison”? So this is why we say, this life is like a prison for a Muslim, but this life is only but a bus stop on the way to Jennah, which will live up to its name and description, and make this life seem like it only lasted for 2 days.

You either have free will or you don’t. This is where I think that the concept of freedom and free will in Islam and Christianity are so different.

Under Article 3 MAN’S FREEDOM our Catechism states:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

" **Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will **and is master over his acts."

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of *choosing between good and evil, *and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery to sin.”

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order."

I heard a priest on EWTN say that without freedom there is no morality.

In an article about why God allows catastrophes to make us turn to a better good, it states:

“Just as excessive intervention by human government would place excessive constraints on social life, so too if the Creator were to prevent men from using their free will in order to avoid their abuse of it, He would be infringing upon the rationality of their nature. Thus God allows catastrophes to happen knowing that the suffering caused by them can be trials that give rational creatures an occasion to gain merits through acts of patience, charity, dedication and even heroism. In addition, God also can make use of natural calamities and even of people’s misdeeds to punish humanity for its sins and to set an example for men.”

This is why I don’t believe in the “complete way of life” that Islam prescribes. It’s a complete infringement of God’s gift of free will and the right to make our own decisions.

Hope this helps!

Vickie

 

[paarsurrey]

You either have free will or you don’t. This is where I think that the concept of freedom and free will in Islam and Christianity are so different.

Under Article 3 MAN’S FREEDOM our Catechism states:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

" **Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will **and is master over his acts."

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of *choosing between good and evil, *and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery to sin.”

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order."

I heard a priest on EWTN say that without freedom there is no morality.

In an article about why God allows catastrophes to make us turn to a better good, it states:

“Just as excessive intervention by human government would place excessive constraints on social life, so too if the Creator were to prevent men from using their free will in order to avoid their abuse of it, He would be infringing upon the rationality of their nature. Thus God allows catastrophes to happen knowing that the suffering caused by them can be trials that give rational creatures an occasion to gain merits through acts of patience, charity, dedication and even heroism. In addition, God also can make use of natural calamities and even of people’s misdeeds to punish humanity for its sins and to set an example for men.”

Hi
I know that the above sections of catechism are neither authored by GodAllahYHWH nor by JesusYeshuaIssa. It is also not traceable in OTBible or NTBible yet I appreciate that the contents are good, I also appreciate that though late yet the Church has adopted it ( it is never late if it is beneficial for the humanity). I appreciate that the Church has reformed itself, it would be good if it conforms to the UNO Charter. I don’t find anything in it which is against Quran/Islam and the morality that Muhammad showed by his deeds, known as Sunnah ( please note that Sunnah is different from Hadith) . Please provide link to access it in full.
Thanks

The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of peaceful and human loving Muhammad and his religion Islam and Islam of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking moral and peaceful.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I know that the above sections of catechism are neither authored by GodAllahYHWH nor by JesusYeshuaIssa.

No one claims that the CCC is written by God or Jesus. It’s like the stuff you post here that tells what your religion believes. It’s the doctrine or theology of the CC. Why you feel a need to put it down I have no clue.

It is also not traceable in OTBible or NTBible yet I appreciate that the contents are good, .

How can you make a statement like this when you have no idea of Catholic theology? Every bit of this is traceable to the OT and the NT. There is most likely documents on the Vatican web site that provides the theological and biblical background over every statement in the CCC. If it si not on the web site it is at the Vatican library.

I also appreciate that though late yet the Church has adopted it ( it is never late if it is beneficial for the humanity). I appreciate that the Church has reformed itself, .

Don’t know what you are talking about. There is nothing new in the stuff posted above. This has been Catholic doctrine for centuries.

it would be good if it conforms to the UNO Charter.

Please who where it does not conform to the UNO Charter? I believe that the CCC confirms and goes much further. It would be good to see the UNO Charter conform more to the CCC. The CC and the UN have totally different objectives. Their charters will and should be very different.

I don’t find anything in it which is against Quran/Islam and the morality that Muhammad showed by his deeds, known as Sunnah ( please note that Sunnah is different from Hadith) .

This has been our beliefs for more then 650 years before Muhammad.

Please provide link to access it in full.

Here are two links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My copy is about 760 pages in length… not considering the indexes, etc. Both links are to the same document… but the second one is searchable.
usccb.org/catechism/text/
http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

 

[Verisimilitude]

Please who where it does not conform to the UNO Charter? I believe that the CCC confirms and goes much further. It would be good to see the UNO Charter conform more to the CCC. The CC and the UN have totally different objectives. Their charters will and should be very different.

Interesting that the UDHR has been challanged by the OIC (mostly Iran and Pakistan, but not limited to them) and felt the need to propose their own version.

 

[Nepenthe]

Sigh.

Well, tawheedah, you surely don’t have my judgment for feeling defensive. There is no reason for you to be treated this way, save that you are different, and they do not hear their own scriptures very well. I had hoped better from this whole thread, perchance genuine inquiry and kindness. Disappointing, isn’t it?

 

[tawheedah]

Sigh.

Well, tawheedah, you surely don’t have my judgment for feeling defensive. There is no reason for you to be treated this way, save that you are different, and they do not hear their own scriptures very well. I had hoped better from this whole thread, perchance genuine inquiry and kindness. Disappointing, isn’t it?

Thank you for saying this. And it is disappointing, and frustrating.

 

[Booklover]

Sigh.

Well, tawheedah, you surely don’t have my judgment for feeling defensive. There is no reason for you to be treated this way, save that you are different, and they do not hear their own scriptures very well. I had hoped better from this whole thread, perchance genuine inquiry and kindness. Disappointing, isn’t it?

What do you mean by this? What posts are you talking about? Your unbiased “umpireship” seems pretty biased to me. What about the outright insults to our faith made by some Muslim posters on these forums? You never seem to notice them, do you? IMHO you haven’t been long enough on these forums to make such judgments!

My last post to Tawheedah explained by means of the catechism what human freedom is all about. There was nothing there to be offended.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

You either have free will or you don’t. This is where I think that the concept of freedom and free will in Islam and Christianity are so different.

Under Article 3 MAN’S FREEDOM our Catechism states:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

" **Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will **and is master over his acts."

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of *choosing between good and evil, *and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery to sin.”

1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order."

I heard a priest on EWTN say that without freedom there is no morality.

In an article about why God allows catastrophes to make us turn to a better good, it states:

“Just as excessive intervention by human government would place excessive constraints on social life, so too if the Creator were to prevent men from using their free will in order to avoid their abuse of it, He would be infringing upon the rationality of their nature. Thus God allows catastrophes to happen knowing that the suffering caused by them can be trials that give rational creatures an occasion to gain merits through acts of patience, charity, dedication and even heroism. In addition, God also can make use of natural calamities and even of people’s misdeeds to punish humanity for its sins and to set an example for men.”

This is why I don’t believe in the “complete way of life” that Islam prescribes. It’s a complete infringement of God’s gift of free will and the right to make our own decisions.

Hope this helps!

Vickie

Here is the Islamic counterpart according to the Quran:

*033.036 *
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
PICKTHAL: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
SHAKIR: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

If this is what freedom means to a Muslim, I want no part of it!

Vickie

 

[tawheedah]

What do you mean by this? What posts are you talking about? Your unbiased “umpireship” seems pretty biased to me. What about the outright insults to our faith made by some Muslim posters on these forums? You never seem to notice them, do you? IMHO you haven’t been long enough on these forums to make such judgments!

My last post to Tawheedah explained by means of the catechism what human freedom is all about. There was nothing there to be offended.

Vickie

If I may add my 2 cents, your posts seemed to me as genuine questions and responses, you personally didn’t cause me any offense or address me rudely. There were others though that did. I don’t think the poster that made that observation was referring to you Vickie.

 

[uforever]

In another thread Hamba2han stated:

'Muslims value freedom just like everyone else…only that we choose to enjoy these freedoms, God willing, in the Hereafter and not in this world which is, after all a temporary abode."

My question is, what are these freedoms and what is meant by the above statement.

Vickie

I (a Muslim) love my freedom; and as a women I know what it is like to not be taken seriously on issues because I am a women. (Its a mans world in any religion!) Anyways ; In Islam your focus is mostly on the after life! You LIVE A GOOD LIFE and will be rewarded for such things as not missing prayer, paying to the poor, teaching about Islam and being kind to others (no matter what religion they are) among others.

Many people forget that this is NOT our last stop in our souls life. This life is NOT a free for all party until we die and then our sins are miraculously forgiven (I wish).
One thing that I see in Christian secs is they dont focus on the after life; which is a very important part. Our eternal life with God is eternal, life on earth is nothing compared to that.

Do I enjoy my freedoms? Absolutely!

Will those be punished for holding me back in life and thinking I am less than a man? Yes, because the Quran stated we are ='s in life.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Will those be punished for holding me back in life and thinking I am less than a man? Yes, because the Quran stated we are ='s in life.

Muhammad said women are deficient in religion and intelligence, and make up the majority of souls in the Fire. The hijab revelation was given so men do not lust, not provide the dignity for the women. Aisha said these revelations made women = to dogs.

How do you reconcile that to being equal in life or the hereafter?

 

[Jedda]

Muhammad said women are deficient in religion and intelligence, and make up the majority of souls in the Fire. The hijab revelation was given so men do not lust, not provide the dignity for the women. Aisha said these revelations made women = to dogs.

How do you reconcile that to being equal in life or the hereafter?

I see a LOT of poop ; posted on this thread…

To start with; can you site your source please? Forgive me for NOT believing what you say as truth. but I dont get the feeling you are a religious scholar.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I see a LOT of poop ; posted on this thread…

To start with; can you site your source please? Forgive me for NOT believing what you say as truth. but I dont get the feeling you are a religious scholar.

Here are hadith where Muhammad states that women are deficient in religion and intelegence, He also says that most people in hell are women.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)
**
**
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
*The Prophet said, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said, “Yes.” He said, “This is because if th deficientcy of a woman’s mind.” *(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826)

 

[Verisimilitude]

I see a LOT of poop ; posted on this thread…

I am not surprised you see what you see from where you are.

To start with; can you site your source please? Forgive me for NOT believing what you say as truth. but I dont get the feeling you are a religious scholar.

Why would I lie? The source is mostly from books such as the Qur’an and commentaries and histories about the individual and time period. Try reading one or five so when you speak and you might not look foolish. I also know and talk to Muslims.

The internet is good for not having to type it all out, but not for learning.

Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, “Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).” I said, “You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him.” (Book #9, Hadith #490)

Anas b. Malik (Allah be pleased with him) reported: I was the best informed among the people pertaining to Hijab (veil and seclusion). Ubayy b. Ka’b used to ask me about it. Anas (Allah be pleased with him) thus narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) got up in the morning as a bridegroom of Zainab bint jahsh (Allah be pleased witt her) as he had married her at Medina. He invited people to the wedding feast after the day had well risen. There sat Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and there kept sitting along with him some persons after the people had stood up (for departure) ; then Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up and walked on and I also walked along with him until he reached the door of the apartment of 'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her). He then thought that they (those who had been sitting there after meal) had gone away. So he returned and I also returned with him, but they were still sitting at their places. So he returned for the second time and I also returned until he reached the apartment of 'A’isha. He again returned and I also returned and they had (by that time) stood up, and he hung a curtain between me and him (at the door of the apartment of Hadrat Zainab, where he had to stay), and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to veil. (Book #008, Hadith #3334)

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, their husbands sons, their brothers or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #31)

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #59)

Thanks for the others BelFarfalla

 

[BelFarfalla]

Thanks for the others BelFarfalla

:tiphat: My pleasure…