What does freedom mean to a Muslim

[Jedda]

Here are hadith where Muhammad states that women are deficient in religion and intelegence, He also says that most people in hell are women.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)
**
**
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
*The Prophet said, “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said, “Yes.” He said, “This is because if th deficientcy of a woman’s mind.” *(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826)

If you “studies” Islam you should then KNOW that all Hadiths are not correct or / and accepted NOT to mention you just cannot pull a copy and paste job off the net as they are hugely unreliable and corrupt for a reason. (I.E. to make Islam and Muslims look stupid; many sources are owned by “other” religions and haters to “prove” their cause.)
There is LARGE debate on some of the hadith sources of some of them and that is why they are careful in which ones (person) they use; . but you should know this since you studied Islam.

 

[BelFarfalla]

If you “studies” Islam you should then KNOW that all Hadiths are not correct or / and accepted

Of course I know that not all Hadith are correct or accepted. That is why I ONLY use a valid source. The USC-MSA compendium of Muslim Texts sites is extremely reliable and supportive of Islam. I have no interest to pass on information that is wrong. So I ONLY use good Islamic sources.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/019.sat.html

NOT to mention you just cannot pull a copy and paste job off the net as they are hugely unreliable and corrupt for a reason. (I.E. to make Islam and Muslims look stupid; many sources are owned by “other” religions and haters to “prove” their cause.)

Really the USC-MSA compendium of Muslim Texts is owned by people who want to make Islam look stupid? Hardly the case.

You should check the sources I provided before accusing them of being anti-Islam. Why are you attacking a valid source?

There is LARGE debate on some of the hadith sources of some of them and that is why they are careful in which ones (person) they use; . but you should know this since you studied Islam.

Yes I do know that, the Sunni consider the following to be the most reliable, hence I only use these:
Sahih Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
Sunan Abu-Dawud
Malik’s Muwatta
On the rare occasion that I use others, I will post that they may not be reliable.

Many of the Hadiths I have used are found in the Justinian of Shari’ah law books, showing the scriptural basis for the law.

 

[Jedda]

I am not surprised you see what you see from where you are.

Why would I The source is mostly from books such as the Qur’an and commentaries and histories about the individual and time period. Try reading one or five so when you speak and you might not look foolish. I also know and talk to Muslims.

The internet is good for not having to type it all out, but not for learning.

Narrated 'Aisha: The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, “Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).” I said, “You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him.” (Book #9, Hadith #490)

Anas b. Malik (Allah be pleased with him) reported: I was the best informed among the people pertaining to Hijab (veil and seclusion). Ubayy b. Ka’b used to ask me about it. Anas (Allah be pleased with him) thus narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) got up in the morning as a bridegroom of Zainab bint jahsh (Allah be pleased witt her) as he had married her at Medina. He invited people to the wedding feast after the day had well risen. There sat Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and there kept sitting along with him some persons after the people had stood up (for departure) ; then Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up and walked on and I also walked along with him until he reached the door of the apartment of 'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her). He then thought that they (those who had been sitting there after meal) had gone away. So he returned and I also returned with him, but they were still sitting at their places. So he returned for the second time and I also returned until he reached the apartment of 'A’isha. He again returned and I also returned and they had (by that time) stood up, and he hung a curtain between me and him (at the door of the apartment of Hadrat Zainab, where he had to stay), and Allah revealed the verse pertaining to veil. (Book #008, Hadith #3334)

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, their husbands sons, their brothers or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful.
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #31)

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #59)

Thanks for the others BelFarfalla

What are you trying to prove? Modesty?
There is nothing wrong with modisty…

I would rather have my daughter dress like this
news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_961210_muslimkids.jpg

than a American trampygirl

onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/dukes.jpg

Which dress did the mother of Jesus PBUH use?

 

[BelFarfalla]

What are you trying to prove? Modesty?
There is nothing wrong with modisty…
I would rather have my daughter dress like this
news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_961210_muslimkids.jpg
than a American trampygirl
onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/dukes.jpg
Which dress did the mother of Jesus PBUH use?

I would tend to agree that some modesty is a good idea.

However forcing an adult women to cover from head to foot does not prove that she too is not a tramp. It is totally possible that the two girls you are calling trampy are virgins who are waiting for marriage and the girls wearing the head scarves are the ‘tramps’.

I know for a fact that wearing shorts and halter tops does not make a girl/woman a tramp. It does make them comfortable however.

After all the prostitutes in Islamic countries dress exactly like the girls wearing cover that you showed.

To be honest I get upset if my daughter tried to wear clothing that showed her belly and cleavage at school, shopping in town etc.
But when we are at a beach resort, I have no problem with her wearing shorts, alter tops and two-piece bathing suits.

I just do not see the human body as dirty or something that needs to be hidden.

 

[Verisimilitude]

What are you trying to prove? Modesty?
There is nothing wrong with modisty…

True, but criminally enforced modesty is a bit much don’t you think? Modesty was only part of the topic.

What about the other points?

Muhammad said women are deficient in religion and intelligence, and make up the majority of souls in the Fire.

I would rather have my daughter dress like this
news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_961210_muslimkids.jpg

What is wrong with this? Or this?

Is this healthy; mentaly or spiritually in your view?

than a American trampygirl

onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/dukes.jpg

I love summer. Aren’t they beautiful? Look at another Created beauty. Don’t you just say…[WOW](http://www.youtube.com/watch_fullsc...f=1&sk=ub9gEUrYjQpTpNJtRhWTHgU&fs=1&title=The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Ever Taken)?

If I as a man; sin, because of scantily clad women, the fault is mine for lack of self-discipline.

Which dress did the mother of Jesus PBUH use?

She wore what was appropriate for her to wear, common to the 1st century. Why do you think society should regress and/or remain in a particular stylish era?

 

[Booklover]

If I may add my 2 cents, your posts seemed to me as genuine questions and responses, you personally didn’t cause me any offense or address me rudely. There were others though that did. I don’t think the poster that made that observation was referring to you Vickie.

Thanks, Tawheedah! I was disappointed that you had nothing to say about what I posted though.

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I (a Muslim) love my freedom; and as a women I know what it is like to not be taken seriously on issues because I am a women. (Its a mans world in any religion!) Anyways ; In Islam your focus is mostly on the after life! You LIVE A GOOD LIFE and will be rewarded for such things as not missing prayer, paying to the poor, teaching about Islam and being kind to others (no matter what religion they are) among others.

Can you explain in more detail what you mean by your freedom?

Many people forget that this is NOT our last stop in our souls life. This life is NOT a free for all party until we die and then our sins are miraculously forgiven (I wish).
One thing that I see in Christian secs is they dont focus on the after life; which is a very important part. Our eternal life with God is eternal, life on earth is nothing compared to that.

I am perfectly aware that earth is not all and that Heaven is our destination. Do you hate life and love death as OBL and all the suicide bombers do?

Do I enjoy my freedoms? Absolutely!

Do you consider it “freedom” when you’re told how to dress?

Will those be punished for holding me back in life and thinking I am less than a man? Yes, because the Quran stated we are ='s in life.

Doesn’t the Quran state that most of the inhabitants of hell are women? And that women are deficient in intelligence?

Vickie

 

[tawheedah]

You either have free will or you don’t. This is where I think that the concept of freedom and free will in Islam and Christianity are so different.

Vickie

We do make our own decisions. I understand that you don’t get the whole Islam is a way of life thing. But who makes someone pray? Who can make someone not eat pork? Not drink? Not party? Not have sex, date, etc? No one can make someone do that. It is your choice whether you want to do right by yourself and God, or go against him. That’s free will right there.

*God not only created everything, but He determined its nature and scope. In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He gave Man limited power and great freedoms, including the freedom of choice. It is because of this autonomy, enjoyed by Man, that he/she is held accountable for the individual deeds. *
The Holy Qur’an says:

**That man can have nothing but what he strives for;
Surah 53 Verse 39

… Verily never will God change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). …
Surah 13 Verse 11

Say: “With God is the argument that reaches home: if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all.”
Surah 6 Verse 149

Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it.
Surah 99 Verses 7 - 8 **
Indeed, when God has set certain rules in his decree as to how things evolve, even these things can be changed through prayers. The prophet stressed that only sincere prayers can change the way events unfold, and that true worship and sincere submission to God can raise the believer above the normal ways of nature: Prayers can and do result in “personal miracles” - events or experiences which we consider almost impossible and certainly highly improbable.

From an Islamic point of view, Man is free for all practical purposes. He/she has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or fate, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle! *

Some of this explanation taken from IslamOnline.net

(sorry for the delayed response. I was out of town for a bit)

 

[tawheedah]

Here is the Islamic counterpart according to the Quran:

*033.036 *
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
PICKTHAL: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
SHAKIR: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

If this is what freedom means to a Muslim, I want no part of it!

Vickie

Are you familiar with tafsir? Explanation/commentary of the Quran/when it was revealed?

That ayat you quoted was in a context of a certain situation regardning a marriage.

033.036
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
033.037
YUSUFALI: Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.” But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah’s command must be fulfilled.

Here’s the tafsir on 33:36:
This [verse] was revealed regarding 'Abd Allāh b. Jahsh and his sister Zaynab, whose hand the Prophet had asked for in marriage, but meaning on behalf of Zayd b. Hāritha. They were loathe to this [proposal] when they found out [that it was on the latter’s behalf], for they had thought that the Prophet (s) wanted to marry her himself. But afterwards they consented because of the [following part of the] verse: And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger has certainly strayed into manifest error. Thus the Prophet (s) gave her in marriage to Zayd. Then on one occasion he [the Prophet] caught sight of her and felt love for her, whereafter [when he realised that] Zayd lost his affection for her and so said to the Prophet (s), ‘I want to part with her’. But the Prophet said to him, ‘Retain your wife for yourself’, as God, exalted be He, says:

 

[BelFarfalla]

We do make our own decisions. I understand that you don’t get the whole Islam is a way of life thing. But who makes someone pray? Who can make someone not eat pork? Not drink? Not party? Not have sex, date, etc? No one can make someone do that. It is your choice whether you want to do right by yourself and God, or go against him. That’s free will right there.

*God not only created everything, but He determined its nature and scope. In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He gave Man limited power and great freedoms, including the freedom of choice. It is because of this autonomy, enjoyed by Man, that he/she is held accountable for the individual deeds. *
……

*Indeed, when God has set certain rules in his decree as to how things evolve, even these things can be changed through prayers. The prophet stressed that only sincere prayers can change the way events unfold, and that true worship and sincere submission to God can raise the believer above the normal ways of nature: Prayers can and do result in “personal miracles” - events or experiences which we consider almost impossible and certainly highly improbable. *

This is absolutely no different than Catholicism (and Christianity at large). There are rules and commandments. But it is up to the person whether or not they will follow it.

tawheedah:
*From an Islamic point of view, Man is free for all practical purposes. He/she has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or fate, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle! *
……
Again… sounds just like Christianity.

I believe that what most people are bringing up here are the cases when Muslims live in countries where they are punished if they do not pray 5 times a day, if they eat pork, as so forth. In these cases freedom of choice is severely limited and a lot of people follow the rules not out of sincerity for their faith but just to keep from being punished… flogged, executed, etc. This even for things like leaving Islam or saying things contrary to it.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Are you familiar with tafsir? Explanation/commentary of the Quran/when it was revealed?

That ayat you quoted was in a context of a certain situation regardning a marriage.

033.036
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
033.037
YUSUFALI: Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: “Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah.” But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah’s command must be fulfilled.

Here’s the tafsir on 33:36:
This [verse] was revealed regarding 'Abd Allāh b. Jahsh and his sister Zaynab, whose hand the Prophet had asked for in marriage, but meaning on behalf of Zayd b. Hāritha. They were loathe to this [proposal] when they found out [that it was on the latter’s behalf], for they had thought that the Prophet (s) wanted to marry her himself. But afterwards they consented because of the [following part of the] verse: And whoever disobeys God and His Messenger has certainly strayed into manifest error. Thus the Prophet (s) gave her in marriage to Zayd. Then on one occasion he [the Prophet] caught sight of her and felt love for her, whereafter [when he realised that] Zayd lost his affection for her and so said to the Prophet (s), ‘I want to part with her’. But the Prophet said to him, ‘Retain your wife for yourself’, as God, exalted be He, says:

It still means the same thing… it does no only apply to marriage, it applies to all things.

It also states that she had no choice in your she married.