What does God make of feminism?

[edwest2]

Politics is not the answer in terms of what individuals decide. Individuals need to form proper, stable relationships with members of the opposite sex, not improper, unstable and unplanned experiences that often lead to problems.

I don’t understand where politics would enter into such an individual process.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Kaninchen]

Politics is not the answer in terms of what individuals decide. Individuals need to form proper, stable relationships with members of the opposite sex, not improper, unstable and unplanned experiences that often lead to problems.

I don’t understand where politics would enter into such an individual process.

God bless,
Ed

Well, you are rather doomed to a kind of “Woe! Woe! And thrice Woe!” approach to life if all you can do otherwise is come up with wish lists.

 

[edwest2]

The Catholic Church has the answer. This is a Catholic forum and I am Catholic. My hope rests with God, prayer and the teachings of the Church.

I hope I can help inform people along the way about what I actually witnessed happening; relationships between men and women going from rational, well considered and moral to the exact opposite.

To be blunt: the shoot first and ask questions afterward approach leads to spiritual problems and very practical problems: “Oh my God, I just found out he/she is a drunk, drug addict, just gave me herpes, addicted to gambling, abusive, etc.” That leads to a lot of Oh woe is me. How did this happen?

God bless,
Ed

 

[goodknight439]

“not gender”? Then why was it important to mention “a woman”? It’s all about gender. It’s a power struggle. That’s why the title of the latest book with that woman on the cover is “A Woman in Charge.” And if anyone wants to see that in action, just see the latest Elizabeth movie with Cate Blanchett.
Peace,
Ed

This is the problem with discussion forums. If we had a conversation you would probably realize we agree more that you think we do at this moment.

 

[Salonika]

neat62:

And what is best for most people in a society, is best, I believe.

Best for whom? For those who think that something is best (which is often those who benefit from it). This is what has been used to justify evils such as slavery, serfdom, mantainng a class system that keeps everyone, including women, in their place.

Best for those for whom the “best” is not their chosen path. For the unmarried, those who know that they should not have children, gays, trans-gendered people, the left-handed and any other minority.

This is the view that gave rise to feminism and other isms that have striven for a more fair and equal society.

Also keep in mind you can demolish any movement, belief system, institution by only talking about its extremes. But where there is injustice another movemment with the same intention will rise to take its place.

 

[Kaninchen]

The Catholic Church has the answer. This is a Catholic forum and I am Catholic. My hope rests with God, prayer and the teachings of the Church.

I hope I can help inform people along the way about what I actually witnessed happening; relationships between men and women going from rational, well considered and moral to the exact opposite.

To be blunt: the shoot first and ask questions afterward approach leads to spiritual problems and very practical problems: “Oh my God, I just found out he/she is a drunk, drug addict, just gave me herpes, addicted to gambling, abusive, etc.” That leads to a lot of Oh woe is me. How did this happen?

God bless,
Ed

Do you feel that you are getting your message across, convincingly, to anybody other than the kind of people who’d agree with you anyway? I mean, moaning on about things like feminism on a Catholic board with a considerable conservative (and American Conservative at that) majority can’t be all that challenging, can it?

 

[edwest2]

Politics does not interest me. It is only about power and power struggles. I hope that among all those who might read what I write that even one person might be encouraged. We are told by God to encourage one another. I am happy to do this.

The intellect should be developed. I am very fortunate to know some people who are very smart, yet the Spirit of God moves among believers. We are to be instruments of God’s love, encourage each other and reaffirm our beliefs through action. Sometimes, as Catholics, it is appropriate to demonstrate a Biblical example to others. I know not only Catholics come to these boards.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Kaninchen]

Politics does not interest me. It is only about power and power struggles. I hope that among all those who might read what I write that even one person might be encouraged. We are told by God to encourage one another. I am happy to do this.

The thing is, you may well be discouraging the people you might be seeking to influence.

 

[edwest2]

That is simply speculation on your part.

God bless,
Ed

 

[onmyknees]

The thing is, you may well be discouraging the people you might be seeking to influence./QUO

We might also be enlightening and encouraging those who have not been fully aware of the truth of our Catholic faith.

 

[marietta]

**neat62 writes: **

“You seem to pick out the the good aspects of feminism while dismissing the negative aspects. To me, there are more negatives and less positives, which = a failed ideology. We still have domestic violence and women still staying in that situation. We still have rape. We still have abortions.”

Are we to understand, then, that domestic violence, rape and the crush of so many men’s insistence on controlling the women in their lives, *are a direct result of feminism? * Other than rape, I would agree that the responsibility for the business of abortion is shared equally by men and women; but these other situations did not spring from women’s desire to live full lives or make an equitable wage for their work. They come from the small, undeveloped minds of men who are threatened by change, threatened by a power shift, threatened even by “looking bad” in front of their friends and neighbors. Feminism should not be held responsible for these reprehensible behaviors.

PrestonPittman tells us:

“All ‘ism’s’, including feminism, are of the flesh.”

Patriotism? Spiritualism? Baptism?

marietta

 

[Kaninchen]

That is simply speculation on your part.

It had been speculation on both our parts - yours that your approach might have some beneficial outcome and mine that it wouldn’t.

 

[Sair]

Best for whom? For those who think that something is best (which is often those who benefit from it). This is what has been used to justify evils such as slavery, serfdom, mantainng a class system that keeps everyone, including women, in their place.

Best for those for whom the “best” is not their chosen path. For the unmarried, those who know that they should not have children, gays, trans-gendered people, the left-handed and any other minority.

This is the view that gave rise to feminism and other isms that have striven for a more fair and equal society.

Also keep in mind you can demolish any movement, belief system, institution by only talking about its extremes. But where there is injustice another movemment with the same intention will rise to take its place.

Oh, thank you, thank you - someone who has presented a straightforward assessment of ‘ismism’ instead of just jumping on a select set of social problems and blaming them on a convenient scapegoat such as, in this case, feminism.

Feminism happened because things had to change, because injustices had to be identified and righted, because people needed to be called to account for the attitudes they unthinkingly held.

Feminism needs to continue because on a global scale, injustice is still happening every day. Women are treated appallingly in so many parts of the world, in most cases much worse than men. It’s all very well for men and women in the Western world to sit up in our ivory towers and condemn feminism and say that we don’t need it anymore and that women should go back to being nice, submissive little wives and dutiful mothers because that’s what we were made for and society was so much ‘better’ when women knew their place - but the reality is that the rights of women are a global issue, and not everyone recognises women’s rights as human rights.

Even in the West, if a woman chooses to be a wife and mother, it’s not just a matter of her choosing the life that will make her happy as an individual. This choice is still tainted by the social assumptions of the past - that domesticity is the nature of all women, and that men have an intrinsic right to have women submit to them. Until we are all gender-blind when it comes to rights, choices and self-determination, feminism still has a place in the world.

 

[edwest2]

This is an incorrect worldview. True justice begins with cooperation in an atmosphere of trust. The feminism of the 1970s was victim oriented, not solution oriented. It did not solve problems but made them worse by establishing in some women’s minds their separatenes, even as a species, from men. It was a power struggle based on us vs. them.

From the Christian perspective, confrontation cannot be productive but only dialogue and an understanding of the sacrament of marriage. That husbands should love their wives and wives should love their husbands. According to the Church, the wife and husband, mother and father, have freely accepted vocational roles that must be guided by faith and understanding. That this is a mutual commitment, and a commitment to the human family.

What God has established, no man should put asunder. When people return to a true understanding of the term commitment and educate themselves about their appropriate roles, there will be a reestablishment of the family home.

A few words from the Church:
guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/31/gender.catholicism

God bless,
Ed

 

[marietta]

This is an incorrect worldview. True justice begins with cooperation in an atmosphere of trust. The feminism of the 1970s was victim oriented, not solution oriented. It did not solve problems but made them worse by establishing in some women’s minds their separatenes, even as a species, from men. It was a power struggle based on us vs. them.

Sair’s “worldview”, as you call it, is not incorrect. It is different than the “worldview” which you hold dear, but it is a valid and, unfortunately, astute assessment of societal inequities throughout the world.

Perhaps you haven’t seen the calendar lately, but most of us have turned the page from 1970 to 2008. Feminism was relevant then, as it is now (and has it has been since the turn of the 20th Century). It is a living thing and, as such, it evolves as time marches on. The suggestion that women in the 1970s considered themselves to be a separate species is ludicrous.

Men and women are different and I thank God for our differences. I would rather be drawn and quartered than try to be a man searching for his identity today, a man kicking and screaming at being dragged forward into a world where nothing is recognizable, where every woman doesn’t have to have a man in her life to be a whole human being.

Who shall define “commitment?” What on earth be “appropriate roles” for men and women today? Shall we go back to the pre-Vatican II ideals? I am so thankful that God has relieved my preoccupation with partnering up with some guy. No angst, no waiting with sandwiches by the phone, no depleted bank account. If I need a man to change a tire or help me to move, I’ll hire one. I don’t have to marry one.

marietta

 

[edwest2]

The calendar myth is part of the problem. It’s the 21st Century, so what? Things don’t change by themselves, certainly not just because the date on the calendar has changed.

This is a Catholic forum so everything I write is from a Catholic perspective. If you don’t want to be with a man, fine. But you should not speak for any other individual woman in the world. The fallacy is simple regarding men: They are all like that. I don’t think all women want that statement applied to them either.

The feminists are angry and often communist. They worship the human mind only. Since that is the case, the Church may or may not factor into any of their thinking. I understand that. However, even those who think they are somehow free of any outside coersive force should ask themselves where did their ideas come from.

The current crisis in male-female relationships is a direct result of Hippie/Anarchist/Communist ideology broadcast by the media. Human sexuality is totally distorted right now.

And finally, all opinions are not equal. Another fallacy circulating on the internet. The truth is hard to find here on the internet, but once found, it needs to be promoted.

Gloria Steinem from the 1970s: “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Does that sound like a rational human being? A rational woman?

You may have given up on your image or perception of what being with a man is like. I hope that perception is from some actual reality and not just imagination, or worse, from some angry, bitter group of middlemen. Because if it is the latter, you may be missing out on a real love, a real relationship.

God bless,
Ed

 

[marietta]

The truth is hard to find here on the internet, but once found, it needs to be promoted.

And you are the bearer of the one truth, I presume.

No, things don’t change by themselves. There has to be some sort of catalyst. And as a hope becomes an ideal or a philosophy, it gathers momentum and like-minded souls.

I have permission to speak for women I know, women who have struggled to make a living in a man’s world, who have sacrificed a great deal to love and care for their children, who have endured the smug condescension that has settled down upon them year after year in most areas of their lives. Power struggles with mates, bosses who promote around them, fighting their own apparent invisibility, not being credited properly for excellence in their fields. This is not a figment of our imaginations. This is painful, demoralizing stuff that has the ability to harden us toward the offenders, often toward husbands or significant others who cannot make room for us except in the kitchen and the bedroom.

Many feminists are angry. It astounds me that you have such difficulty grasping the “why” of it. I defy you to document the actual number of women who subscribe to both feminism and communism. And I don’t believe I made any statement which led you to believe that “all men are like that”, meaning callous and indifferent, or archaic in their thinking and unwilling to bend. My unfortunate history has taught me that I am not suited to sharing the company of any man because the expectations on boths sides become unrealistic and, no matter how many dollars or kisses or years are spent on trying to make him happy, the result is the same. “Negatory”, as my father used to say.

Hippie/anarchist/communist influence? Hippies? Perhaps. Anarchists? Absolutely! Communists? Prove it.

marietta

 

[edwest2]

I suggest you look up any credible biography for Betty Friedan.

I speak from and with the Catholic community. The same community I watched gradually poisoned. That turned from calm, rational living to distorted, hyper-sexualized dysfunctional living. What I would say to some women is that solutions need to be found, for each of you. I watched the so-called feminists and heard them speak: “Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!” What did women want? Power? Money? Control? To be men?

There were only a few stated goals from the 1970s that I thought were worthwhile: equal pay for equal work, and equal access for comparable ability. The rest centered around birth control and abortion.

I still live in the Catholic community by the grace of God. Those few shrill voices are gone, replaced by dysfunctional people who have allowed themselves to become what their makers wanted. Hope is what should motivate people. Cooperation. Reconciliation. The feminists were’t offering that. Too many have devolved. Deceived into a way of life that is not as it should be. But still, there are those who persevere.

God bless,
Ed

 

[marietta]

edwest2:

Are you saying that *you choose to live *in a toxic Catholic community which embraces hypersexualization and dysfunction?
And now the shrill voices are gone, but they have been replaced by dysfunctional people who have - what? - been manipulated into having ideas other than those which receive your sanction and blessing?

Have you considered moving into a gated community?

marietta

 

[edwest2]

According to Pope Benedict, things will change for each one of us when we take the time to put God back into our lives. This is true.

God bless,
Ed