What does God make of feminism?

[estesbob]

One of the great, all-time, dialogs of the deaf.

Oh, I know that I usually keep them for Muslims but I thought the thread was ready for them.

I was thinking more of the hampster references in homosexual threads

 

[elts1956]

Indeed. Part of the problem these days is that there are far too many people - both men and women - who think that feminism was just a phase that a radical group of women went through before they were born. They don’t see that the attitudes that created the social conditions against which feminist activists fought are still very much alive today. This is in some measure understandable, precisely because the social conditions have changed.

There are still deeply-entrenched attitudes regarding what people feel is ‘appropriate’ behaviour for men or for women. People whose inclinations don’t fit the existing social norms still struggle to realise their potential - because society expects them to keep aspects of their personality in check, if those aspects don’t fall within the acceptable limits. To give a very superficial example which still illustrates my point - why is it now perfectly acceptable for women to wear trousers, but not for men to wear skirts? The latter is still very much on the fashion fringe. As I said, a superficial example, but a telling one nevertheless.

Some would say we were better off before the social conditions changed. To my mind, this represents a refusal to understand that what needs to change, still, is the belief that all people need to fit themselves into a little box, clearly delimited by social expectations. This belief does of course go further than feminism - it’s only that the box always was smaller for women.

Not to beg the question Sair, but I have seen Prine Charles of England in kilts which is prettty darn close to a skirt. Culure, culture.

 

[elts1956]

Indeed. Part of the problem these days is that there are far too many people - both men and women - who think that feminism was just a phase that a radical group of women went through before they were born. They don’t see that the attitudes that created the social conditions against which feminist activists fought are still very much alive today. This is in some measure understandable, precisely because the social conditions have changed.

There are still deeply-entrenched attitudes regarding what people feel is ‘appropriate’ behaviour for men or for women. People whose inclinations don’t fit the existing social norms still struggle to realise their potential - because society expects them to keep aspects of their personality in check, if those aspects don’t fall within the acceptable limits. To give a very superficial example which still illustrates my point - why is it now perfectly acceptable for women to wear trousers, but not for men to wear skirts? The latter is still very much on the fashion fringe. As I said, a superficial example, but a telling one nevertheless.

Some would say we were better off before the social conditions changed. To my mind, this represents a refusal to understand that what needs to change, still, is the belief that all people need to fit themselves into a little box, clearly delimited by social expectations. This belief does of course go further than feminism - it’s only that the box always was smaller for women.

So, if calm, reasoned argument won’t do, burn your bras and vilify all men? Isn’t this what’s done when facing an enemy in war? Turn him into some evil creature? Then, when the bombs stop falling and the shooting stops, sign a treaty and just resume trade? However, you’ll notice the feminists never mentioned an end to the conflict they helped to make much worse.

God bless,
Ed

 

[elts1956]

To answer your questions: most ladies undergarments are designed by men. Corsets, bras and the like. Burning it was a symbol of freedom from the clothing men had given to women to wear for their own, obviously perverted reasons.

Unfortunately, women today are paying money for a piece of string with a tiny piece of cloth attached and calling it underwear. Nonfunctional and degrading. Not to mention pants that don’t even go up to their natural waists. I doubt anyone put a gun to their heads when they entered the store.

God bless,
Ed

Perhaps designed by men (higher pay), but I bet two dollars to a donut, most of them are sewn by women or immigrants as a very low pay scale.

 

[Kaninchen]

I was thinking more of the hampster references in homosexual threads

Goodness, I must start reading the homosexual threads!

 

[marietta]

I would like to read a post by edwest2 which does not refer to any of the following:

bra burning
hippies
Sex and the City
vilify all men
bombs/shooting/treaty
Betty Friedan
woman/fish/bicycle
etc., etc., etc.

This is a fantastic opportunity for learning, ed. On this thread you have many women who subscribe to different branches of feminism, some femlite, others radfem, and everything in between. If you would be willing to ask any one of us what the modern feminist subscribes to, we’d be very willing and happy to bring you up to date. We are not all radicals. I’m probably the most radical here, and I know you would disagree with many of the things I believe in, but take advantage of the fabulous, sensitive, and probably willing women (and perhaps a few men as well) who could set your mind at ease and help you out of the bomb shelter you’ve been living in all these years. Shucks, ed, even* I* don’t* bite.*

marietta

 

[edwest2]

But I like my bomb shelter.

It may seem odd to some but following Church teaching means following Church teaching. I would like to emphasize that on a Catholic message board. I am also against internet opinion culture and the false idea that all opinions are somehow equal. They aren’t.

I watched as the Body of Christ on earth was slowly, gradually poisoned. People who were free were led to believe they were missing something. Pretty soon, enough Catholics ran off to see what this new, new thing was. The outcome for too many was to so distance themselves from the Church that they don’t know how or are too afraid to come back. Meanwhile, a small group is telling them everything is fine, everything is as it should be and to deal with things as they are. A properly formed conscience, appropriate feelings of shame and guilt and a willingness to improve and rededicate yourself to real Chrch teaching is all that’s needed. But currently, too many are living out the fruit of a failed and harmful revolution. It’s over. It’s time to come home.

God bless,
Ed

 

[marietta]

edwest2:

First of all, I’m not sure I know what internet opinion culture is; maybe you could explain it for me a little bit so I know what you’re referring to.

How is it that all opinions are not equal? And why must they be measured? If we are all God’s children, and God gave us all minds and hearts and souls to use in forming our consciences and even our opinions, how can one person’s opinion be of more value than another’s?

I believe that in their 1960s zeal to contain the children they were assigned to instruct, the nuns and the laypersons in my parishes overwhelmed us with supercharged ideas of shame and guilt, so much so that I was paralyzed with fear over the thought of making one wrong move. I understand what you’re saying about the properly formed conscience, but the impressions left upon me with regard to shame and guilt were anything but appropriate. I am now nearly fifty years into trying to undo the damage this caused. If I come away from Catholic Answers Forum with anything, it will be the understanding that I am no longer a Catholic. And I have no desire to “come home”. The Church was never my home. It was my father’s home. It was my convert mother’s home. It continues to be the home of my sister and two brothers. And I feel a distance from the Church which is immeasurable. Distance, but not grief.

For me it is not over, it will not be over until that pine box calls. And home? It must be hard for you to conceptualize it, but for some of us there is no home. If home means abandoning who I am, who God made me, then I will just have to keep moving. I don’t suggest that God keep the home fires burning until I return. I take Him with me, always.

marietta

 

[estesbob]

edwest2:

First of all, I’m not sure I know what internet opinion culture is; maybe you could explain it for me a little bit so I know what you’re referring to.

How is it that all opinions are not equal? And why must they be measured? If we are all God’s children, and God gave us all minds and hearts and souls to use in forming our consciences and even our opinions, how can one person’s opinion be of more value than another’s?

I believe that in their 1960s zeal to contain the children they were assigned to instruct, the nuns and the laypersons in my parishes overwhelmed us with supercharged ideas of shame and guilt, so much so that I was paralyzed with fear over the thought of making one wrong move. I understand what you’re saying about the properly formed conscience, but the impressions left upon me with regard to shame and guilt were anything but appropriate. I am now nearly fifty years into trying to undo the damage this caused. If I come away from Catholic Answers Forum with anything, it will be the understanding that I am no longer a Catholic. And I have no desire to “come home”. The Church was never my home. It was my father’s home. It was my convert mother’s home. It continues to be the home of my sister and two brothers. And I feel a distance from the Church which is immeasurable. Distance, but not grief.

For me it is not over, it will not be over until that pine box calls. And home? It must be hard for you to conceptualize it, but for some of us there is no home. If home means abandoning who I am, who God made me, then I will just have to keep moving. I don’t suggest that God keep the home fires burning until I return. I take Him with me, always.

marietta

Well in case to come back we’ll leave a light in the window

Too bad you didnt meet my Aunt. Sister of Charity , taught for 50 years. after she was forced to quit teaching she joined another Nun to offer a foster home for troubled children.

The only reason i am where I am today s because the Nuns made me work hard and disicplined when I needed it.
In college I was edcuated by the Jesauits-now thats another story entierely.

 

[elts1956]

But I like my bomb shelter.

It may seem odd to some but following Church teaching means following Church teaching. I would like to emphasize that on a Catholic message board. I am also against internet opinion culture and the false idea that all opinions are somehow equal. They aren’t.

I watched as the Body of Christ on earth was slowly, gradually poisoned. People who were free were led to believe they were missing something. Pretty soon, enough Catholics ran off to see what this new, new thing was. The outcome for too many was to so distance themselves from the Church that they don’t know how or are too afraid to come back. Meanwhile, a small group is telling them everything is fine, everything is as it should be and to deal with things as they are. A properly formed conscience, appropriate feelings of shame and guilt and a willingness to improve and rededicate yourself to real Chrch teaching is all that’s needed. But currently, too many are living out the fruit of a failed and harmful revolution. It’s over. It’s time to come home.

God bless,
Ed

Opinions are just that Ed, opinions. Unfortunately, or fortunately none of us can prove opinions.

 

[Sair]

Biology dictates the roles of men and women. There is no new biology. You don’t send your baby out on stage at 3 months with a Fender Stratocaster.

Why can’t men wear skirts? More 1970s drivel and the creation of the Unisex concept. Unisex haircuts, unisex bathrooms.

If your lament is “why do things always have to be the same”? this is valid only for those who do not understand the difference between things that are legitimately absolute and unchanging and those choices that one makes as an individual.

The ‘biology dictates’ argument doesn’t hold water. Humans have overcome many of biology’s dictates, which is why we’re not living in caves and hunting and gathering anymore.

What does a baby onstage with an electric guitar three times its weight have to do with any of this anyway?

So, why can’t men wear skirts? What’s stopping them? Instead of using this as a legitimate jumping off point for discussing social norms, you just brush it aside.

So, what to your way of thinking are the ‘legitimate absolutes’? I’d wager I could ask 20 different people - or however many you like, really - and get as many different responses.

Until all people are identical, everyone is going to see the world in different ways, and have different means of attaining happiness.

 

[elts1956]

But I like my bomb shelter.

It may seem odd to some but following Church teaching means following Church teaching. I would like to emphasize that on a Catholic message board. I am also against internet opinion culture and the false idea that all opinions are somehow equal. They aren’t.

I watched as the Body of Christ on earth was slowly, gradually poisoned. People who were free were led to believe they were missing something. Pretty soon, enough Catholics ran off to see what this new, new thing was. The outcome for too many was to so distance themselves from the Church that they don’t know how or are too afraid to come back. Meanwhile, a small group is telling them everything is fine, everything is as it should be and to deal with things as they are. A properly formed conscience, appropriate feelings of shame and guilt and a willingness to improve and rededicate yourself to real Chrch teaching is all that’s needed. But currently, too many are living out the fruit of a failed and harmful revolution. It’s over. It’s time to come home.

God bless,
Ed

So…let me get this straight. You’re saying it was better when women depended upon men for their livelihood? When miserable, dissatisfied, stifled wives stayed with their unsatisfactory, sometimes abusive, presumptious and oh-so-entitled husbands because it was that or be a starving social outcast?

What many posters on this thread seem to be longing for is the appearance of social stability. Never mind that under the surface there are torrents of sadness, anger and longing for happiness that can’t be attained because of social constraints. As long as people look the part, shut up and toe the party line, then surely everything must be okay.

It’s that very mentality that allows domestic violence to flourish. Sure, everybody knows that it happens, some people might even recognise the signs, but as long as no-one complains, and it stays within the family circle, we can ignore it, right?

Instead of the coercive social structures that used to force women to settle into family life even if they were disinclined to do so, and even if there were no men with whom they felt true companionship and love, we now have a society where people are a bit more free to choose marriage for more noble motives than mere financial security. I hope this upward trend continues.

Sair said:

“So…let me get this straight. You’re saying it was better when women depended upon men for their livelihood? When miserable, dissatisfied, stifled wives stayed with their unsatisfactory, sometimes abusive, presumptious and oh-so-entitled husbands because it was that or be a starving social outcast?”

No, I didn’t say that. I said it was a mixed blessing. You cannot deny that the UNIT of society, the family. has suffered as a result of more women working outside the home. Specifically the children have suffered because Mom isn’t at home when she may be needed.

I’m not saying it is bad for women or men to fulfill themselves in whatever way they deem fit as far as careers go, but it seems the disadvantages that women once had have now been passed on to the children, but in another form, mainly in the lack of a more calm, more structured life. Maybe there are some women who can give their all to career and also to husband and children, but I would think they are few in number.

We somehow have to find a way to correct the injustice the children are now suffering because of less parental guidance without forcing those women who want to stretch their wings and abilities outside the home to try to fit only into a role in which they feel displaced. I don’t pretend to know the answers, or even many of the questions.

 

[elts1956]

Sounds like the men got a good deal out of it Must have been great coming home to a home cooked dinner every night, feet up resting on the couch reading the paper. Ah, it must have been bliss!!!

Now that they are out working we are forced to contribute something other than the weekly bacon… WHAT NEXT???

Do you mean to tell me thomfra, that widdle wifey poo doesn’t have thomums swippers in one hand and a manhatten in the other weddy for da widdle guy when hims walks in the door at night after a haaaard day at work? Shame, shame. Sounds like you have never had that experience???

 

[thomfra]

Do you mean to tell me thomfra, that widdle wifey poo doesn’t have thomums swippers in one hand and a manhatten in the other weddy for da widdle guy when hims walks in the door at night after a haaaard day at work? Shame, shame. Sounds like you have never had that experience???

he, he. Not even once!!! Sometimes she mixes me a gin and tonic. But more often than not she steals my beer. It’s a scandanavian thing…

I like that slippers idea though…

(the truth is I don’t work that hard) - So I should probably mix my own drinks.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

The charity level in the thread is near the bottom. Posters are making jabs at each other rather than discussing the topic. Thread closed.