What does it mean to be "saved"? Catholic vs. Protestant

[jlhargus]

This is different than the majority Protestant view in which they feel that salvation is never lost (and if someone denies their faith later on in life, they claim that they never really had faith to begin with).

JL: As a former non-denominational Protestant I can tell you OSAS is a minority in Protestantism. Although It does seem to be growing among evangelicals. I only know of Baptist, Presbyterians, and some Evangelical groups that hold OSAS.

 

[1Rich23]

I am not sure what the Catholic definition or since there are so many Protestant groups what would be the “Protestant” definition, but I would like to comment on what I am basing my “salvation” on.
Jesus says that we must all be taught of God and that those who receive God’s teaching will come to Him. John 6:45, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” Teaching of God is a process that we each must endure. When God teaches we are a sinner, we must accept we are a sinner or we cannot be “saved,” and we have then stopped or dropped out of God’s teaching. Faith comes by hearing God’s Word and accepting it, Romans 10:17, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,” but that is only if we accept and receive what we hear into our hearts to faith. Hebrews 4:2 states, “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
If we do accept that we are a sinner, then God will teach us that Jesus is the answer for our sins, and again we are faced with a choice, do we accept that Jesus is our answer or do we reject because we don’t want to become “one of those Jesus freaks?” We have accepted that we are a sinner but if we reject Jesus is our answer, then we cannot be saved. Jesus says in John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
If we accept God’s teaching that we are sinners and that Jesus is our answer, then He will teach us that we must humble our sinful hearts and ask forgiveness of our sin and invite Jesus to send His Spirit into our hearts. Knowing that is not salvation, WE MUST DO IT! When we pray, ask forgiveness, invite the Spirit of Christ into our hearts, the instant He comes in we are changed to a “Child” or Son of God. Our acceptance by faith that we are a sinner was a MUST step of faith, our acceptance that Jesus was the answer for our sins was a MUST step of faith, our acceptance and humbling our hearts, confessing and asking forgiveness of our sins WAS A MUST step of faith, God’s reply by sending the Spirit of Christ into our hearts provides the Spirit of Grace to perform the cleansing and changing of our hearts and making us a child of God. Romans 8:9, “…now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” The instant the Spirit of Christ enters our hearts we become a child of God. Galatians 4:6-7 also states when we become a child of God, “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” The elements of faith as God taught us, led us to invite and receive the Spirit of Christ into our hearts. When the Spirit of Christ enters our heart, that is when we are forgiven of our sins, (saved from our sins), receive the changed heart, and become a child of God, a new creature as 2 Corinthians 5:17 states, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” God explained what He was going to do for us through the Prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:26-27, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh, (27) And I will put my Spirit within you…” and this Scripture is one of the best descriptions of the work of Grace in our hearts at salvation.
Our eternal life begins the instant God puts His Spirit in us, for we will always have His Spirit and will just someday shed this old physical body and live with Him in the Spirit.

 

[joe370]

So back to my original question: How do Protestants come to the conclusion, based on sola scriptura, that they are actually going straight to Heaven upon death because they are “saved”. How did the church fathers view “save, saved and salvation”? Rescue from death, or a free ride to paradise? I thank you in advance for your answers!

I think scripture is very clear:

James 2:14:

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also **faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
**

 

[jlhargus]

Acts2 gives the definitive answer to how one is initially saved. They must still persever to the end. For the adult hear the Word, believe, repent, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Spirit, added to the Church the body of Christ. Continue in the Apostels doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayers.

[Acts2:36 Therefore **let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?]

38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE IS UNTO you, AND to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were BAPTIZED: and the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls.] How did they save themselves from a evil generation BEING BAPTIZED?

42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD (we call it Mass), and in PRAYERS. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily SUCH AS SHOULD BE SAVED.] They continue in ONE VISIBLE (Church) FELLOWSHIP, WORSHIP and DOCTRINE.

[Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved **THE CHURCH, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might SANCTIFY and CLEANSE it WITH THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD,] How does scripture tell us we are sanctified and cleansed by washing?

[Act22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord.] How does scripture tell us we are REGENERATED?

[TITUS 3:5 **Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he SAVED us, BY the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and RENEWING OF the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That BEING JUSTIFIED by his grace, we should be made HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life.] Notice washing of regeneration, renewing of the Holy Ghost. Sounds like Jn3:5 by water AND OF the Spirit.

[1Cor6:11 And such were some of you: **BUT YE ARE WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.] Notice washed by the Spirit of our God. Again sounds like Jn3:5.

[Jn3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, **EXCEPT a man be BORN OF water AND OF the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.] Notice water and of the Spirit. How are we BORN AGAIN by water and of the Spirit and become a child of God?

[Gal 3:26 For **YE ARE all the CHILDREN OF GOD by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For AS MANY of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]

 

[jlhargus]

God explained what He was going to do for us through the Prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:26-27, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh, (27) And I will put my Spirit within you…” and this Scripture is one of the best descriptions of the work of Grace in our hearts at salvation.
Our eternal life begins the instant God puts His Spirit in us,

JL: I would tend to agree with most of your post. The scriptures teach, WATER BAPTISM, remits sins and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38. Ezekiel36 is prophesying the coming sacrament of water baptism by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5.

Ez36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 **A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT **will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[QuickCat]

JL: I would tend to agree with most of your post. The scriptures teach, WATER BAPTISM, remits sins and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts2:38. Ezekiel36 is prophesying the coming sacrament of water baptism by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5.

Ez36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 **A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT **will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Goodness fellows, Ezek. 36:24 has Israel in view in the coming kingdom. Ezek. knew nothing of the Body of Christ. Cmpare with Jer. 31:31-34 - to Israel. Please don’t confuse Israel with the Body of Christ.
QC

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Goodness fellows, Ezek. 36:24 has Israel in view in the coming kingdom. Ezek. knew nothing of the Body of Christ. Cmpare with Jer. 31:31-34 - to Israel. Please don’t confuse Israel with the Body of Christ.
QC

The Body of Christ is Israel.

 

[QuickCat]

The Body of Christ is Israel.

Surely you kidding! Is that RC teaching? Are we to change the name “Israel” to “church” when we find it in Scripture? How do you justify this teaching?
QC

 

[DENNYINMI]

Regarding topic,

I find one thing with most of my Protestant brethren, and it is not exactly knowing the difference between redemption vs salvation.

Through no merit of any one person, Christ the Lord has redeemed the world. Atheist, non-believer and the like.

The application of this redemption, to a believer through faith, is then applied to “salvation”, as Christ is the “only” way!

Through the redemption all is complete. Once and for all. He does not need to come and suffer the cross again for those in the future who will convert…and believe.

Salvation then is available to those who have faith…and that faith is in Christ.

Oh yes, 3 words on “works”…Book of James

Either your faith is living, or it is dead.

 

[jlhargus]

Goodness fellows, Ezek. 36:24 has Israel in view in the coming kingdom. Ezek. knew nothing of the Body of Christ. Cmpare with Jer. 31:31-34 - to Israel. Please don’t confuse Israel with the Body of Christ. QC

JL: Correct [Jer31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that **I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:] And a REMENT of Israel accepted that new covenant. They belived, repented, were baptized, received the Holy Spirit and were ADDED to the body of Christ the Church.

[Acts2:36 Therefore **let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO?

38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of the HOLY GHOST. 39 For THE PROMISE IS UNTO you, AND to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were BAPTIZED: and the same day there were ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls.] How did they save themselves from a evil generation BEING BAPTIZED?

42 And THEY CONTINUED stedfastly IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD (we call it Mass), and in PRAYERS. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily SUCH AS SHOULD BE SAVED.]

What were those three thousand Israelites ADDED TO according to scripture? The body of Christ THE CHURCH Acts2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily SUCH AS SHOULD BE SAVED.]

Surely you kidding! Is that RC teaching? Are we to change the name “Israel” to “church” when we find it in Scripture? How do you justify this teaching? QC

JL: The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church;

877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as “the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy.”

395 Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons.396 For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop.

567 The kingdom of heaven was inaugurated on earth by Christ. “This kingdom shone out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ” (LG 5). **The Church is the seed and beginning of this kingdom. Its keys are entrusted to Peter **.

[1Cor12:13 For **by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED into ONE BODY, WHETHER we be JEWS or GENTILES, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.] By the Spirit are ALL BAPTIZED into one the body or Christ the Church.

Gal3:26 For YE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. 27 For **AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST **have put on Christ. 28 THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye ABRAHAM’S SEED, and **HEIRS according TO THE PROMISE. **

[Rms11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, SO ARE THE BRANCHES. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and **thou being a WILD OLIVE TREE, WERT GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM, AND WITH THEM PARTAKEST OF THE ROOT and fatness OF THE OLIVE TREE;]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9675982&postcount=31

I am starting a NEW LINE so not to derail this one. I will let you know the link. Title will be, Two NT Gospels, 1 Jew & 1 Gentile

 

[jlhargus]

QuickCat I have started a new line, Are there 2 NT Gospels, 1 Jewish, 1Gentile. Now there is no excuse for you to derail other lines.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9731364#post9731364

 

[stevekehl]

I think scripture is very clear:

James 2:14:

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also **faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead**?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

What works did the thief on the cross do?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

God finishes His saving of us when we die.

This avoids the whole time warp continuum problem that our Protestant brothers struggle with, e.g., predestination, OSAS, etc.

I liked that Edward… short, simple and to the point.

 

[DavidWJackson]

What works did the thief on the cross do?
We are initially saved by faith alone and given a time span, that will be a different and unknown periode for each individual, to which faith is all that is required for salvation. Read Mat. 25:14-30. However, to remain in a state of grace / salvation one must start to become Christ like: loving, kind, generious, slow to anger, forgiving, and a teacher of God’s word, etc…
Now, as to what does it mean to be saved? To a Protestant it means that if you were to die right now, something strikes you dead this second, you know you have lived your life to this point in such a manor that you are a rightful heir to the Kingdom of God that you were created to inherit. A Catholic does not say this. Because, Catholics do not profess to know what state their soul will be in at the hour it is required by God. We live in faith, hope and good works praying that one day we may be found worthy of the promises of Christ. I guess you might say Catholics live in fear of the LORD.

 

[William_C]

Sometimes I long for the days of simple belief when, as a Protestant, all I had to do to be “saved” was to declare my belief in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Wave your hands in the air and shout, “Hallelujah! I’m saved!”. Alas, I returned to my Catholic roots and found out it isn’t so simple.

So now that you’ve returned to Catholicism you earn your salvation, is that right?

If not, then why is salvation in Catholicism so much more difficult than biblical salvation?

 

[joe370]

What works did the thief on the cross do?

None that I know of; perhaps his suffering on the cross and his eventual belief and proclamation that Jesus was in fact who He said He was, was enough. Suffering on the cross is more work than I would want to do. By the way, those are not my words; they are the words of James (sacred scripture which is the protestants final authority). Are we not to adhere to what James has to say on the matter?

 

[Lochias]

So now that you’ve returned to Catholicism you earn your salvation, is that right?

.

No. But faith without works is a dead faith, and the gifts that God chooses to give us for our works are not earned…they are given because God is a loving God and freely gives to those who love Him in return.

If not, then why is salvation in Catholicism so much more difficult than biblical salvation?

Catholic salvation IS Biblical salvation. The Bible is a Catholic document. History 101. Better start readin’, bub.

 

[William_C]

.

No. But faith without works is a dead faith, and the gifts that God chooses to give us for our works are not earned…they are given because God is a loving God and freely gives to those who love Him in return.

That’s a very protestant position: works don’t save, but are a result of salvation, and are performed by us because God determined that we would perform them (Eph 2:10). A very protestant position indeed.

Lochias:

Catholic salvation IS Biblical salvation. The Bible is a Catholic document. History 101. Better start readin’, bub.

It’s a Christian book.

 

[Lochias]

That’s a very protestant position: works don’t save, but are a result of salvation, and are performed by us because God determined that we would perform them (Eph 2:10). A very protestant position indeed.

Don’t follow. Actions speak louder than words, and it’s our works that show God that our faith is alive. In that sense, there is no faith without works, and thus works are necessary. Do they somehow complete the work which Jesus completed on the cross? No. But they continue it.

It’s a Christian book.

Yes. A Catholic document is, by its very definition, Christian.

 

[William_C]

Don’t follow.

What are you having difficulty following?

Lochias:

Actions speak louder than words, and it’s our works that show God that our faith is alive. In that sense, there is no faith without works, and thus works are necessary. Do they somehow complete the work which Jesus completed on the cross? No. But they continue it.

I believe that for Catholics, Trent condemned the idea that works are simply a show that your faith is alive, but that your works merit for you grace which merits eternal life. It seems from Trent then, your works do save you.

Lochias:

Yes. A Catholic document is, by its very definition, Christian.

Then we agree, the Bible is a Christian book.