What does it mean to be submissive?

[Convert07]

I’m a very strong-willed, opinionated woman and I am having trouble coming to terms with what it means to submit to one’s husband. My husband complains that I don’t ever just follow him but have to do things my way. What exactly does the Church teach on submission to one’s husband? Are we to have a voice in decisions or should we just follow and trust that our husband will lead us in the right direction (in matters both big and small)?

 

[pensmama87]

 

[UbiCaritas]

Based on prior threads on this subject, lemme make this easy and summarize the answers you’ll get.

Answer series A): a few common-sense posters who, against their better judgment, offer some variation on a theme of “compromise is important in any relationship, ditto communication in order to reach a compromise that works best for both of you. Could you perhaps be a bit more specific about your concerns? Are you talking ‘what to get for dinner’ level of disagreement, or ‘are we buying a house this year’ level of disagreement?”

Answer series B): a few posters, usually men but with a woman or two in there, who will tell you what a disgusting excuse for a human being you are, that the Church put your husband over you for a reason (no citation given, natch), and you’re to obey him in everything except (maybe) sin

Answer series C): a couple of women who want the world to know that NO ONE TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO, NO WAY, NEVER and if your husband so much as says, “I’d prefer Chinese” when you want Italian on the night you order takeout, you should run for the hills because he’s an emotional abuser who’ll be beating you by this time next week.

Short answer: figure out what works best for you two, maybe with the help of a sensible book or two or a few sessions with a counselor who can give you tools for communication, and go with it.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m a very strong-willed, opinionated woman and I am having trouble coming to terms with what it means to submit to one’s husband. My husband complains that I don’t ever just follow him but have to do things my way. What exactly does the Church teach on submission to one’s husband? Are we to have a voice in decisions or should we just follow and trust that our husband will lead us in the right direction (in matters both big and small)?

There have been a few threads on this…

I would suggest that you can always be just a bit more respectful and a bit more loving, even when you’re firmly disagreeing with one of your husband’s ideas.

This Protestant lady has some very smart ideas:

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2013/08/fully-alive-biblical-vision-gender/

"Whenever I write about resolving conflict, or areas in which husbands and wives disagree, I get taken to task in the comments for not telling women to submit more.

"I find this rather strange. To so many, it seems as if submission in marriage is the ultimate goal of the relationship.

“Oneness is the goal of marriage; submission is a tool to get there. It is not the end, in and of itself.”

"But I think what I mean by submission and what some other people mean by submission are really two different things. I consider submission when I care about my husband’s needs first; when I think about what he may want or need, and I sacrifice something to meet that need. I consider submission when I pray God’s will for his life.

“Yet to some people, it seems the only definition of submission that matters is that when you have a difference of opinion, she defers to him.”

“This really irks me, because to me, that’s a failure.”

“And so I can never really understand the women who take pride in saying, “I let him make all the decisions, even if I think he’s wrong.” To me, that’s a cop out. If you think he’s wrong, you have an issue in your relationship. One of you–or both of you–is not listening to God. Why should we be proud of that? Why should we not instead wrestle through it together, and with God, until we’re cheerfully on the same page?”

I won’t quote the whole thing, but I suggest having a look. In fact, I’d suggest doing a google search for submission at that website and read every single piece.

I’d also suggest that you ask your husband something like, “If I feel that you are endangering our family’s welfare or harming our children, am I supposed to just go along with it?”

If it doesn’t rise to that level of seriousness, but you still care, maybe do a coin flip?

Also, consider the size of the upside and the downside. For instance, imagine that you are in disagreement what to do about a sick child. He thinks the child just has a little virus. You are worried and want to take the child to the doctor. In that particular case, as long as you are well-insured, there’s virtually no downside to taking the child to the doctor, and a major possible downside if you don’t. So, in that case, I think “take the child to the doctor” ought to win.

If financial issues are in play, I suggest listening to Dave Ramsey (he has an excellent collaborative financial decision-making model for married couples) and doing a monthly budget every single month and sticking to it. Make sure that you each get equal say and that you each get something you want in the budget.

Good luck!

 

[Convert07]

Based on prior threads on this subject, lemme make this easy and summarize the answers you’ll get.

Answer series A): a few common-sense posters who, against their better judgment, offer some variation on a theme of “compromise is important in any relationship, ditto communication in order to reach a compromise that works best for both of you. Could you perhaps be a bit more specific about your concerns? Are you talking ‘what to get for dinner’ level of disagreement, or ‘are we buying a house this year’ level of disagreement?”

Answer series B): a few posters, usually men but with a woman or two in there, who will tell you what a disgusting excuse for a human being you are, that the Church put your husband over you for a reason (no citation given, natch), and you’re to obey him in everything except (maybe) sin

Answer series C): a couple of women who want the world to know that NO ONE TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO, NO WAY, NEVER and if your husband so much as says, “I’d prefer Chinese” when you want Italian on the night you order takeout, you should run for the hills because he’s an emotional abuser who’ll be beating you by this time next week.

Short answer: figure out what works best for you two, maybe with the help of a sensible book or two or a few sessions with a counselor who can give you tools for communication, and go with it.

Thanks for the sufficient warning on the upcoming replies. I definitely got a kick out of this answer.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

It differs in each relationship.

I was very independent with a professional career when I married. We have only been married 2years and have a 1year old.

I take my Dad’s advice on arguments, he says:

“don’t start or continue an argument over something just because you want to be right or prove a point. It will always lead to disappointment or heartbreak and you will end up alone. Discuss a problem immediately, don’t let it fester. Stand your ground on the big issues that you feel strongly about.”

My parents never raised their voices to each other, they discussed family/marriage issues behind closed doors and always presented a united front to us kids.

It’s not about being right or winning the fight or giving in a part of yourself to someone else because you let him make a final decision in what car to buy.

When you marry someone, you become one, two sides of the same coin. Sometimes you will give in to his idea and sometimes he will give in to yours but don’t take a count of who gives in more.

 

[You]

not a woman. but am experimenting with the idea of taking joy in other peoples ideas, imagining what might need to be done to make them work and making any adjustments quietly. also having fun with the idea of formulating a plan B if the thing does not work so to save from loss, again in the most unobtrusive ideally invisible way. so stuff works out in the end as - if - by magic…

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m a very strong-willed, opinionated woman and I am having trouble coming to terms with what it means to submit to one’s husband. My husband complains that I don’t ever just follow him but have to do things my way. What exactly does the Church teach on submission to one’s husband? Are we to have a voice in decisions or should we just follow and trust that our husband will lead us in the right direction (in matters both big and small)?

I am not married but I have observed several happily married couples. One word comes to mind, teamwork.

I think marriage demands humility from both husband and wife. This means acknowledging the truth. One’s spouse may be more knowledgeable than another on certain things and the other spouse on other things. Acknowledge this fact about one another. When it comes to an impasse, pray, seek a third opinion, and remember it’s not about me but about us.

 

[PaulinVA]

I don’t think strong willed and opinionated is good for either partner. Maybe it just sounds bad. You do need to be your own person and have your own ideas, but in a marriage the idea is to be a team.

You should not always try to be right. Your spouse should be more importatnt to you than yourself.

 

[kptrs]

 

[marymary1975]

Based on prior threads on this subject, lemme make this easy and summarize the answers you’ll get.

Answer series A): a few common-sense posters who, against their better judgment, offer some variation on a theme of “compromise is important in any relationship, ditto communication in order to reach a compromise that works best for both of you. Could you perhaps be a bit more specific about your concerns? Are you talking ‘what to get for dinner’ level of disagreement, or ‘are we buying a house this year’ level of disagreement?”

Answer series B): a few posters, usually men but with a woman or two in there, who will tell you what a disgusting excuse for a human being you are, that the Church put your husband over you for a reason (no citation given, natch), and you’re to obey him in everything except (maybe) sin

Answer series C): a couple of women who want the world to know that NO ONE TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO, NO WAY, NEVER and if your husband so much as says, “I’d prefer Chinese” when you want Italian on the night you order takeout, you should run for the hills because he’s an emotional abuser who’ll be beating you by this time next week.

Short answer: figure out what works best for you two, maybe with the help of a sensible book or two or a few sessions with a counselor who can give you tools for communication, and go with it.

:clapping::clapping::clapping: this post get a the award to best post ever on a submission thread!!!

After saying that…I also take my popcornopcorn: while I ask my husband to bring me some soda

 

[underacloud]

Here is the passage from Ephesians and I have bolded two relevant points.

Ephesians 5:

21 **Be subject to one another **out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind—yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body.** 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the church. 33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband**.

The Papal Encyclical Casti Connubii discusses this issue too, as below:

27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

1. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact.

You can read more of it here: w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii.html

 

[Boccherini]

Based on prior threads on this subject, lemme make this easy and summarize the answers you’ll get.

Answer series A): a few common-sense posters…

Answer series B): a few posters, usually men but with a woman or two in there, who will tell you what a disgusting excuse for a human being you are, …

Answer series C): a couple of women who want the world to know that NO ONE TELLS THEM WHAT TO DO, NO WAY, NEVER …

Short answer: figure out what works best for you two, maybe with the help of a sensible book or two or a few sessions with a counselor who can give you tools for communication, and go with it.

D) Assertive women are attractive. Unless strong willed is code for nagging or disrespecting your husband there’s nothing wrong with it.
Learn to be gracefully assertive.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with letting your husband decide most things, if you trust his decisions.

There’s something strange about the women who proudly declare that they “submit” to their husbands, and the men who openly declare that they want their wives to submit are probably afraid that they are less intelligent than average.

Remember that diplomacy is the art of letting other people have it your way.

 

[Xantippe]

There’s something strange about the women who proudly declare that they “submit” to their husbands, and the men who openly declare that they want their wives to submit are probably afraid that they are less intelligent than average.

The funny thing is, from a lot of those women’s self-report, it doesn’t sound like they fight any less with their husbands. (They often report how they had this fight with their husband and then they did such an awesome job submitting to him AFTERWARD.) So that aspect of the hyper-submission program (avoiding conflict) seems to be a bust.

Underacloud’s quotes are very good. I had seen #27 from Casti Connubii before and quoted it in this context, but #28 is just as important. Those quotes strongly suggest that hyper-submission is not actually a Catholic ideal.

I think one of the reasons that Casti Connubii sounds so much more moderate than a lot of Protestants you hear on the subject is that in the Catholic tradition, we have the advantage of a couple thousand years of pastoral experience, whereas the Protestants who go off the deep end about submission are going off a small selection of Bible verses that would fit neatly on the back of a 3X5 card, with no coming to grips as to what it all means in practice. (That’s not to say that you don’t bump into Catholics that have gone off the deep end–but they’re in violation of Casti Connubii.)

 

[Momof9inFL]

Lots of making love???.

 

[Polluted]

I’m a bit more teaditional. Sadly the modern 21st century women and those who lead to her existance has created allot of problems. Women want to be dominate and loud in today’s world with everyone on the left cheering them on. Sadly at the same time they are bound to their natural state. Desiring a strong men who will…at the end of the day “dominate” them. At least that’s by design, but sadly this broken state has caused many problems and is disordered…much like homosexuality.

This is why even the loudest and progressive of women seek to be dominated in the bedroom. It’s simply a strong indicator of what I am talking about here. It’s a huge paradox, but has created nothing positive. You see, the women of today, are the same who have shamed, and discouraged any masculine qualities from our young folks. All in the name of being “equal”. This looks good on paper, but men never said women were not equal, just different than men. Sadly thou feminism pulled the trigger and now women are stuck with an identity crises and a lack of real men.

Where have all the men gone? Seems to be a common cry from today’s females. And it’s true, many full grown strong men are anything BUT men simply because they have been conditioned not to be masculine in any shape or form. This leads girls feeling unsatisfied, confused, and restless as their God given desire dominates their personality…to find a man who will rule them.

It’s a shame, and for those who actually have a masculine husband consider yourselves lucky. Being submissive isn’t about getting back into the kitchen Its about respecting your man’s rule as head of the pack and letting him lead! Sadly though many men are unfit to even do that! So on some level I feel sorry for females because even if they wanted to submit and trust their man they cant! Chances are many of their husbands have no idea how to, or are unfit to do so. Timidness, pornogrophy, drug and alcohol abuse, more video games than a 12 yr old school boy, lack of gumption are rampant. Really sad to watch.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m a bit more teaditional. Sadly the modern 21st century women and those who lead to her existance has created allot of problems. Women want to be dominate and loud in today’s world with everyone on the left cheering them on. Sadly at the same time they are bound to their natural state. Desiring a strong men who will…at the end of the day “dominate” them. At least that’s by design, but sadly this broken state has caused many problems and is disordered…much like homosexuality.

This is why even the loudest and progressive of women seek to be dominated in the bedroom. It’s simply a strong indicator of what I am talking about here. It’s a huge paradox, but has created nothing positive. You see, the women of today, are the same who have shamed, and discouraged any masculine qualities from our young folks. All in the name of being “equal”. This looks good on paper, but men never said women were not equal, just different than men. Sadly thou feminism pulled the trigger and now women are stuck with an identity crises and a lack of real men.

Where have all the men gone? Seems to be a common cry from today’s females. And it’s true, many full grown strong men are anything BUT men simply because they have been conditioned not to be masculine in any shape or form. This leads girls feeling unsatisfied, confused, and restless as their God given desire dominates their personality…to find a man who will rule them.

It’s a shame, and for those who actually have a masculine husband consider yourselves lucky. Being submissive isn’t about getting back into the kitchen Its about respecting your man’s rule as head of the pack and letting him lead! Sadly though many men are unfit to even do that! So on some level I feel sorry for females because even if they wanted to submit and trust their man they cant! Chances are many of their husbands have no idea how to, or are unfit to do so. Timidness, pornogrophy, drug and alcohol abuse, more video games than a 12 yr old school boy, lack of gumption are rampant. Really sad to watch.

Here are some thoughts:

1. How do your views square with the quotes from Casti Connubii that were shared upthread? Not well, I think.
2. What people enjoy erotically does not necessarily closely resemble what they enjoy in everyday life. For instance, it’s common for people (of both sexes) to enjoy being dominant in normal life, but to enjoy being erotically dominated.
3. Also, I think it is important to note that a fair number of men enjoy sexual assertiveness from women. In fact, I’m tempted to say that it’s got to be at least half.
4. What are these “masculine qualities” that are being discouraged? Care to enumerate them?
5. “men never said women were not equal, just different than men”

Really? There’s an enormous history of women being deemed not equal (not getting to vote, not having equal inheritance rights, being banned from numerous professions, being punished harshly for sexual sin while male partners got off scot-free, getting harshly punished for being raped, girls being regarded as less valuable than boys, unworthy of education, given less education as a matter of course, etc). In fact, it continues to the present day in many of the less savory corners of the globe.

 

[AnnArbor]

Here are some thoughts:

1. How do your views square with the quotes from Casti Connubii that were shared upthread? Not well, I think.
2. What people enjoy erotically does not necessarily closely resemble what they enjoy in everyday life. For instance, it’s common for people (of both sexes) to enjoy being dominant in normal life, but to enjoy being erotically dominated.
3. Also, I think it is important to note that a fair number of men enjoy sexual assertiveness from women. In fact, I’m tempted to say that it’s got to be at least half.
4. What are these “masculine qualities” that are being discouraged? Care to enumerate them?
5. “men never said women were not equal, just different than men”

Really? There’s an enormous history of women being deemed not equal (not getting to vote, not having equal inheritance rights, being banned from numerous professions, being punished harshly for sexual sin while male partners got off scot-free, getting harshly punished for being raped, girls being regarded as less valuable than boys, unworthy of education, given less education as a matter of course, etc). In fact, it continues to the present day in many of the less savory corners of the globe.

 

[Xantippe]

Women want to be dominate and loud in today’s world with everyone on the left cheering them on. Sadly at the same time they are bound to their natural state. Desiring a strong men who will…at the end of the day “dominate” them.

[snip]

This is why even the loudest and progressive of women seek to be dominated in the bedroom. It’s simply a strong indicator of what I am talking about here. It’s a huge paradox, but has created nothing positive. You see, the women of today, are the same who have shamed, and discouraged any masculine qualities from our young folks. All in the name of being “equal”. This looks good on paper, but men never said women were not equal, just different than men. Sadly thou feminism pulled the trigger and now women are stuck with an identity crises and a lack of real men.

[snip]

It’s a shame, and for those who actually have a masculine husband consider yourselves lucky. Being submissive isn’t about getting back into the kitchen Its about respecting your man’s rule as head of the pack and letting him lead!

I have to comment a little more on this, namely to add a little bit more fine print to the idea that women like to be dominated.

Let’s imagine a good old-fashioned bodice ripper where Roderigo, the surprisingly well-bathed and well-toothbrushed pirate has captured the luscious but virginal Lucinda. There’s going to be a lot of domination, obviously. Does he:

A) shower her with ill-gotten treasure and make rough (but mutually satisfying!) love to her

B) make her spend all week scrubbing down the greasy and rat-infested pirate galley

C) inform her that his mother will be moving in with them…permanently

D) have her launder all of the pirate crew’s reeking garments

E) give her heck about how many doubloons she’s been spending on wench outfits

or

F) all of the above?

Note that even though all of those things theoretically involve domination, A) is sexy but B), C), D), E) and F) really aren’t (unless we’re talking VERY specific tastes). To the general female public, there’s only one right answer.

When we say that women like to be dominated, the bad news is that we like to be dominated…exactly how we like to be dominated.

 

[Nelka]

I’m a very strong-willed, opinionated woman and I am having trouble coming to terms with what it means to submit to one’s husband. My husband complains that I don’t ever just follow him but have to do things my way. What exactly does the Church teach on submission to one’s husband? Are we to have a voice in decisions or should we just follow and trust that our husband will lead us in the right direction (in matters both big and small)?

When you work it out can you email my wife please?