What does it mean to be 'uncharitable'? And how does it dove-tail with the need for Truth?

[RGCheek]

I have Asperger’s Syndrome, so please bear with me on this. I am genuinely trying to understand what the normative behavior is on this topic so that I can pass myself off as a charitable person when I really don’t have a knack for the whole topic.

If I say something negative about group A but I can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, am I being uncharitable to say it?

To what degree are we obligated to not offend, but on the other hand to also be accurate and truthful?

If I say that ISIS is a terrorist organization, would that be uncharitable?

If I said that abortion doctors were murderers, would that be uncharitable?

The whole topic confuses me to know end and I dread the thought of offending my brethren in Christ on a daily basis…

 

[JamalChristophr]

Charity seeks the good. There is a time to speak and a time to be silent.

St. Paul says speak the truth in love.

We can use truth as a cudgel or 2 x 4 and that is not charitable, so don’t do that.

 

[RGCheek]

Charity seeks the good. There is a time to speak and a time to be silent.

St. Paul says speak the truth in love.

We can use truth as a cudgel or 2 x 4 and that is not charitable, so don’t do that.

So am I using Truth as a cudgel when I say ISIS is a terrorist organization?

What if the people I am speaking of are evil and intend to do harm? Does the need for urgency ever justify using plain and blunt language?

This whole thing seems very contradictory and confusing to me.

 

[thistle]

I have Asperger’s Syndrome, so please bear with me on this. I am genuinely trying to understand what the normative behavior is on this topic so that I can pass myself off as a charitable person when I really don’t have a knack for the whole topic.

If I say something negative about group A but I can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, am I being uncharitable to say it?

To what degree are we obligated to not offend, but on the other hand to also be accurate and truthful?

If I say that ISIS is a terrorist organization, would that be uncharitable?

If I said that abortion doctors were murderers, would that be uncharitable?

The whole topic confuses me to know end and I dread the thought of offending my brethren in Christ on a daily basis…

As the Pope has called ISIS terrorists and said the use of force against them is justified I hardly think any of us calling them terrorists is uncharitable.

 

[John_Martin]

When we were baptized and confirmed, our bodies were washed with water and anointed with oil.
And also, our souls were washed and anointed and filled with the Holy Spirit - our souls were infused with Virtue by the Grace that accompanies the Holy Spirit. A new being, a new creation, an image of which might be coffee grounds mixing with water infuse the water with new color and content such that it is a new substance - coffee (maybe even Starbucks).

Our souls now have the habits of Faith, Hope, Charity - habitual Virtue, just waiting to be in Act, to be actual virtue in our bodies. And whenever our wills (which are in our souls, not our bodies) lean toward our goal of being actually what God is forming us to be, then we know how to act with these habits of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

Our physical and material being is the place where we can actuate and actualize the reality of who and what we are. When we “do the Act of Faith” of reciting the creed at Mass, we are in our bodies actualizing the habit of Faith that was given to us. We are actuating our bodies to match and correctly mirror our souls, who we are, for we are new beings of Faith with “above” natural Virtue.

We also have the habit of Charity in our souls, waiting to actualize our bodies, our thoughts and deeds, with Acts of Charity, so that Charity is actual in the world through our material thinking and acting.

Have this goal of making your body be a true likeness of your soul, where your thoughts, words, and deeds are actualized virtue. Let’s do some virtue in the world today, to the people we meet, so they can see what God has made us and what he is powerful to do in everyone and anyone. Let’s not try to change the world but let’s let the world see the “changed us” when it sees virtue active.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

I want to affirm your desire to work on areas which you see could use growth in your life. I think the difficulty for folks with low levels of social awareness is developing the sensitivities that come naturally to others. A lot of the social interactions are not based on factual correctness alone, but factual correctness in an appropriate context within a given situation.

This can seem to be quite mysterious to people who, for whatever reason did not pick these skills up in their development (guys as well have a tougher time than women). I can say it is a skill which can be developed and improved upon significantly, but it takes some work. It helps to observe people who you see as gifted socially and see how they interact in a given situation. As well, it helps to have a friend who you can ask about a particular interaction. Sometimes the most effective skill is to learn to wait and think a moment about what you say before it comes out.

Good luck!

 

[fhansen]

I have Asperger’s Syndrome, so please bear with me on this. I am genuinely trying to understand what the normative behavior is on this topic so that I can pass myself off as a charitable person when I really don’t have a knack for the whole topic.

If I say something negative about group A but I can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, am I being uncharitable to say it?

To what degree are we obligated to not offend, but on the other hand to also be accurate and truthful?

If I say that ISIS is a terrorist organization, would that be uncharitable?

If I said that abortion doctors were murderers, would that be uncharitable?

The whole topic confuses me to know end and I dread the thought of offending my brethren in Christ on a daily basis…

Truth and love are never at odds; they come from the same Source. Tolerance is not the equivalent of love.

 

[seagal]

It’s not always easy for any of us
When you say anything about a person (or group) it should be the truth, but it’s not always charitable to speak, even if it is the truth.

If I say something negative about group A but I can prove it beyond any reasonable doubt, am I being uncharitable to say it?

This depends entirely on the circumstances. If you’re having a discussion with a friend about the relative merits of a certain hockey team and you bring up their lamentable lack of talent, you would want to be able to provide proof. If you’re at a social event and meet a member of said hockey team, that would not be the time to point out all their failings as a team.

To what degree are we obligated to not offend, but on the other hand to also be accurate and truthful?

We are always obliged not to offend, and at the same time be truthful. This is something I work hard at, not because I have Asperger’s but because I tend to speak frankly, which can sound harsh when I don’t mean to be. There are many times when speaking the truth would either hurt someone’s feelings or spark an argument. At those times it’s better to keep silent. For example, Christian apologetics videos on YouTube tend to attract a lot of hateful comments. To my mind there’s no point in answering someone who has no interest in hearing the truth. So even if what they say is 100% wrong and I can prove it, I don’t bother because they won’t accept it and I don’t want to get caught up in a lot of negativity.

If I say that ISIS is a terrorist organization, would that be uncharitable?

As thistle said, the pope himself called them terrorists. They are engaged in terrorist activities, and you’re not going to hurt anyone’s feelings by calling them what they are.

If I said that abortion doctors were murderers, would that be uncharitable?

Probably. It’s an emotionally charged word and would not help to advance a debate. If you look at any pro-life literature they shy away from calling anyone murderers (unless it’s a radical pro-life group). In this case, we don’t want to make accusations, we want to change hearts.

I don’t know if any of this is helpful to you. It can be a minefield trying to decide whether to say something or not and if so, how to say it. Charity should comes first. Jesus told us the greatest law is to love God and our neighbour.

 

[RGCheek]

When we were baptized and confirmed, our bodies were washed with water and anointed with oil.
And also, our souls were washed and anointed and filled with the Holy Spirit - our souls were infused with Virtue by the Grace that accompanies the Holy Spirit. A new being, a new creation, an image of which might be coffee grounds mixing with water infuse the water with new color and content such that it is a new substance - coffee (maybe even Starbucks).

Our souls now have the habits of Faith, Hope, Charity - habitual Virtue, just waiting to be in Act, to be actual virtue in our bodies. And whenever our wills (which are in our souls, not our bodies) lean toward our goal of being actually what God is forming us to be, then we know how to act with these habits of Faith, Hope, and Charity.

Our physical and material being is the place where we can actuate and actualize the reality of who and what we are. When we “do the Act of Faith” of reciting the creed at Mass, we are in our bodies actualizing the habit of Faith that was given to us. We are actuating our bodies to match and correctly mirror our souls, who we are, for we are new beings of Faith with “above” natural Virtue.

We also have the habit of Charity in our souls, waiting to actualize our bodies, our thoughts and deeds, with Acts of Charity, so that Charity is actual in the world through our material thinking and acting.

Have this goal of making your body be a true likeness of your soul, where your thoughts, words, and deeds are actualized virtue. Let’s do some virtue in the world today, to the people we meet, so they can see what God has made us and what he is powerful to do in everyone and anyone. Let’s not try to change the world but let’s let the world see the “changed us” when it sees virtue active.

So you are saying it is relative to the persons spiritual growth then?

 

[RGCheek]

Truth and love are never at odds; they come from the same Source. Tolerance is not the equivalent of love.

So are you saying it is not uncharitable to describe doctors who perform abortions as murderers? It is accurate and truthful, so it must also be within the bounds of love and therefore charitable?

 

[John_Martin]

So you are saying it is relative to the persons spiritual growth then?

It is our spiritual being to manifest in the world what is in our souls, the virtues infused by the Holy Spirit with Grace. Acts of Faith, Hope, and (most needed) Charity, will not exist in the world unless we do them. We, the baptized and confirmed, are the only ones sent to the world with these virtues in our new nature. It is what we are made for.

 

[RGCheek]

It is our spiritual being to manifest in the world what is in our souls, the virtues infused by the Holy Spirit with Grace. Acts of Faith, Hope, and (most needed) Charity, will not exist in the world unless we do them. We, the baptized and confirmed, are the only ones sent to the world with these virtues in our new nature. It is what we are made for.

That is all fine and good, but are you saying that the speaking of Truth is a relative thing?

Maybe you even consider Truth to be a relative characteristic of an object or concept?

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but I would like my question answered so I repeat it.

 

[RGCheek]

It’s not always easy for any of us
When you say anything about a person (or group) it should be the truth, but it’s not always charitable to speak, even if it is the truth.

So you do believe that Truth and Love can be in conflict?

This depends entirely on the circumstances. If you’re having a discussion with a friend about the relative merits of a certain hockey team and you bring up their lamentable lack of talent, you would want to be able to provide proof. If you’re at a social event and meet a member of said hockey team, that would not be the time to point out all their failings as a team.

Why bother talking about hockey? Did Christ die and give us a mandate to spread the news of hockey? of course not, but we are commissioned to preach the gospel, to spread the Word of the Truth that Jesus Christ came to this Earth to teach us that we may avoid doing what is evil and offend GOD.

We are always obliged not to offend, and at the same time be truthful.

So avoiding offense trumps speaking Truth?

How can one love the person that is destroying himself and others through sin and waste and still love that person?

If my son were morbidly obese and asked me if I thought he was obese, should I not tell him truthfully that he is obese? Do I put love to action more by speaking Truth to him or by lying by omission?

There are many times when speaking the truth would either hurt someone’s feelings or spark an argument. At those times it’s better to keep silent. For example, Christian apologetics videos on YouTube tend to attract a lot of hateful comments. To my mind there’s no point in answering someone who has no interest in hearing the truth. So even if what they say is 100% wrong and I can prove it, I don’t bother because they won’t accept it and I don’t want to get caught up in a lot of negativity.

So we should not preach the Gospel because some may be offended? We should avoid forums where there might be people who will disagree?

I cant remember Saint Paul doing this, or Jesus; maybe I have misread my Bible and Jesus really didn’t drive the money changers out of the Temple with a whip or tell the scribes and Pharisees that they were hypocrits, doomed to the fires of Hell?

As thistle said, the pope himself called them terrorists. They are engaged in terrorist activities, and you’re not going to hurt anyone’s feelings by calling them what they are.

How do you know that you wont offend a relative of said terrorist who still loves their relative?

Probably. It’s an emotionally charged word and would not help to advance a debate. If you look at any pro-life literature they shy away from calling anyone murderers (unless it’s a radical pro-life group). In this case, we don’t want to make accusations, we want to change hearts.

Murder is murder. I wouldn’t go spit in the mans face and call him a murderer in front of everyone in the room, but maybe we should be willing to push the envelope at least. If the dude asked me did I think him a murderer I think I am obligated to say, ‘yes, you are a murderer’. I owe him that much to speak Truth

And of course, our commitment to politeness might be part of why we now have over 55 million abortions performed in this country since Roe; we are just too polite to get upset about it all.

I don’t know if any of this is helpful to you. It can be a minefield trying to decide whether to say something or not and if so, how to say it. Charity should comes first. Jesus told us the greatest law is to love God and our neighbor.

Charity should come first, if it suits us I think you mean. We have this dichotomy of those to whom we must not give offense and those whom we may offend. No one was concerned about offending Paula Deen when decades old things she may have said came to light. No she was tossed on the pyre of public opinion and burned alive. She is of the category of people for whom offense is permissible.

But telling an abortion doctor that the innocent babies he is ripping limb from limb that he is a murderer is to cross the line and be uncharitable? What of our love for the unborn? Doesnt charity to them demand our outrage for such a murderous industry? and even more outrageous that we consider it all so banal?

“And the core of the Gospel is this; go along to get along?” Nah. I do understand that kindness is required and to avoid unneeded offense, but Truth trumps courtesy and we must speak the truth kindly, I agree, if we can.

But if I understand the Gospels, Truth trumps charity.

James 3:17

“But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.”

 

[RGCheek]

Are we not to emulate Jesus Christ?

How did He speak to sin and evil?

Matthew chapter 23:1-36
"23 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a] that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,** and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[e] in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[f] 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

My Lord whom I try to be like does not seem so concerned with avoiding offense when He speaks against evil.**

 

[John_Martin]

That is all fine and good, but are you saying that the speaking of Truth is a relative thing?

Maybe you even consider Truth to be a relative characteristic of an object or concept?

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but I would like my question answered so I repeat it.

St. Paul knew he was free to eat meat, but refrained when with the weaker brethren. He did not say to them, “I am strong in faith but you are weak and easily scandalized in your immaturity of faith, so I am not eating meat when I am around you”. Instead he abstained from meat in silence about it when with them, in Charity. Wisdom is silent at times and speaks at times, all at the right times. At times Jesus called a spade a spade, and at other times he was silent. Sometimes he spoke in parables and other times plainly.

You say you would like your question answered, but will you then believe anyone who tells you an answer that is different than you want to hear? Do you want an answer or do you want everyone responding to say, “Yes, you are right”?

 

[RGCheek]

St. Paul knew he was free to eat meat, but refrained when with the weaker brethren. He did not say to them, “I am strong in faith but you are weak and easily scandalized in your immaturity of faith, so I am not eating meat when I am around you”. Instead he abstained from meat in silence about it when with them, in Charity. Wisdom is silent at times and speaks at times, all at the right times. At times Jesus called a spade a spade, and at other times he was silent. Sometimes he spoke in parables and other times plainly.

What was at risk? There was no proscription by God on eating this meat and St Paul understood this, so he refrained from the controversy by abstention. For us today this would be the equivalent of not arguing about evolution vrs Creationism as the side I think that is right can still give grave offense to the weaker brethren. So I rarely discuss the topic for much the same reasons you give.

But if my son lives in adultery, am I to speak the Truth or conceal it under a bushel?

What does my son better service, to tell him the Truth in a gentle way or to let him go on in risk of the fires of Hell?

You say you would like your question answered, but will you then believe anyone who tells you an answer that is different than you want to hear? Do you want an answer or do you want everyone responding to say, “Yes, you are right”?

I want t read other’s answers so that I might better understand the issue from a multiplicity of opinions. The discussion helps me to clarify the matter in my own mind and some of it is very confusing. I know people mean well when they say that speaking Gods Truth can be harmful, but I do not think the facts support such a claim and would like to hear why people think this is so and discuss it, as well as other similar beliefs and values.

Maybe I am wrong and have something to learn? How would I come to know this if I do not honestly state my beliefs and ask my questions?

If this is too involved for you to get into I understand. There is no obligation for you to continue the discussion, not at all, though it would be a disappointment.

 

[fhansen]

So are you saying it is not uncharitable to describe doctors who perform abortions as murderers? It is accurate and truthful, so it must also be within the bounds of love and therefore charitable?

For the sake of the potential victims, yes, that could be quite charitable. I can imagine Jesus being just that forceful in such a case. At pro-life rallies, signs that read “Abortion is Murder” often draw the greatest reaction.

 

[graciew]

Jesus also said positive and nice things. They were also the Truth.
He spoke lovingly in the Beatitudes for example , He praised the faith of many.
And this was also the truth.
So to tell the truth pointing out what is positive is generally a good option too.

When it comes.to more negative things we can talk about the action ,for example.
Instead of saying " You are a liar !" One can say " I believe that what you are saying is not true"

We all struggle with this sort of comments .
Does it help ?

 

[John_Martin]

Jesus’ harsh, often very harsh, words were not spoken to the Scribes and Pharisees in some kind of personal conversation but in the presence of his disciples and the presence of those who wanted to find out who Jesus was. The Scribes and Pharisees were there to control the people (and Jesus) as the watchdogs.

He condemned them openly, promising them “woe”, so that the onlookers could see the difference of believing in Him and following him versus what people are who do not lead you to faith but lead you to pretending you are justified.

At other times, he was silent.

If I see someone trying to persuade a Catholic or anyone undecided to have a false understanding of what is true, I do speak up, in charity for the one who might be led astray. But when alone, it is more like Jesus with Nicodemus, not condemning him as a Pharisee, but enticing him into the mystery of being born again, to wet his appetite for something better than he had ever dreamed of and could not comprehend.

Jesus did not come right out with the first word to the rich young man, telling him he was trusting in his possessions when he should be trusting in God. Instead the young man spoke first to Jesus, asking how to be certain of eternal life. Even then Jesus said no “truth” to him about his “lifestyle”. He asked what the young man knew from his upbringing about being perfect. The man explained. Even then Jesus did not say a harsh word or accusation, but agreed with the man - do what you know from the law and prophets. When the man finally said I have always done these things, only then did Jesus ask him to do something (“go, sell all you have, give it to the poor, come, follow me”). He again did not speak a word of condemnation of the man, like “you are sinning by trusting in your wealth as what makes you happy and alive”. Instead he gave the man a task where the man would see his own situation. And the mad did see his own situation. And he went away sad, mourning all the things he was about to lose as he sold them to give to the poor. There is sadness in giving up our old self. But even though we don’t see it with this man, when he finally was done with his task and would return to follow Jesus, he would be very blessed. He did come back, you know.

Who is present when you are speaking to “sinners”? Are they flaunting and preaching and luring others to sin or are they unwittingly trapped in it? These and other things are all things considered by Wisdom when she speaks. It is not good to speak if you are angry - it narrows your vision to not see everything and everyone around you and it hinders wise words.

 

[seagal]

So you do believe that Truth and Love can be in conflict?

Why bother talking about hockey? Did Christ die and give us a mandate to spread the news of hockey? of course not, but we are commissioned to preach the gospel, to spread the Word of the Truth that Jesus Christ came to this Earth to teach us that we may avoid doing what is evil and offend GOD.

Obviously I misunderstood the thrust of your questions. Your post sounded to me like you were interested in purely social interaction, not spreading the capital “T” Truth of the gospel.

So we should not preach the Gospel because some may be offended? We should avoid forums where there might be people who will disagree?

I avoid talking to people who are only looking for a fight. They don’t want the truth, or the Truth, and trying to tell them is like banging your head against a wall. I pick my battles.

And of course, our commitment to politeness might be part of why we now have over 55 million abortions performed in this country since Roe; we are just too polite to get upset about it all.

There’s a time and place for everything. There is also a right and wrong way to go about change. Jesus did show righteous anger towards the money changers, but every other instance in the gospels shows that he exhibited patience and kindness. He didn’t call the woman at the well an adulteress, he showed her the error of her ways. He didn’t yell at the woman charged with adultery, he forgave her and told her to sin no more.

“And the core of the Gospel is this; go along to get along?” Nah. I do understand that kindness is required and to avoid unneeded offense, but Truth trumps courtesy and we must speak the truth kindly, I agree, if we can.

We can only do it kindly. We can bring the Truth to people, but we aren’t their judges. Even God doesn’t make us follow his law, and we don’t have the right to beat people up (metaphorically) about their sins.

James 3:17

“But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.”

Exactly.