What does omniscience entail?

[tonyrey]

In accordance with the standard definition of omniscience, for God to know means that He has a justified true belief that all true propositions are true; and for God to not know means that He has a justified true belief that all false propositions are false.
God’s knowledge of what a man will do/does includes that man’s “exercise of free will.”

Knowledge of the **actual **exercise of free will does not necessarily entail knowledge of **non-existent **acts of free will.

What meaning do you believe the distinction between God knowing all that a man will do/does and God knowing what a man decides to do has?

Keep in mind that your previous position was that God cannot even predict what our free decisions will be. How do you reconcile that with what you are now asserting?

God does not predict. God knows all the results of our free decisions and obviously knows all actualised decisions. There is not one jot of evidence that a **non-existent **decision is knowable. Do you think all God’s activity is knowable?

The problem that arises by defining free choices and decisions as intrinsically unknowable is that God’s omniscience is erroneously understood to be a modal property.

There are propositions which are neither true nor false because they do not correspond to reality. In other words they are meaningless. Discursive knowledge of free will is such a proposition because free will is an ultimate fact. It is as nonsensical as the question “How does God exist?”

 

[tonyrey]

There is no reason to suppose a creature with finite intelligence can ever fully understand His perfect Creator, is there?

A refreshingly frank answer. It raises the question whether God can enable us to understand Him fully… It strikes me that He cannot! Not because His power is limited but because it is absurd to suggest that infinite perfection can be fully grasped by finite beings. It is similar to asking whether God can destroy Himself…

 

[FCCopleston]

tonyrey writes:

Knowledge of the **actual **exercise of free will does not necessarily entail knowledge of **non-existent **acts of free will.

What is a “non-existent act of free will”? Where does it occur? Why can’t God know it? How do you know that God cannot know it?

God does not predict. God knows all the results of our free decisions and obviously knows all actualised decisions. There is not one jot of evidence that a **non-existent **decision is knowable. Do you think all God’s activity is knowable?

Apparently, you have no difficulty determining that God cannot know “non-existent acts of free will”–whatever those are…
There is not one jot of evidence that a there are “non-existent” anythings, much less “non-existent acts of free will.” What you are saying makes very little sense to me. You are going to need to explain the terms you are using if we are going to continue this discussion.

There are propositions which are neither true nor false because they do not correspond to reality. In other words they are meaningless. Discursive knowledge of free will is such a proposition because free will is an ultimate fact. It is as nonsensical as the question “How does God exist?”

Thank you for conceding that free will–as you define it–is “meaningless.”

 

[tonyrey]

Knowledge of the actual exercise of free will does not necessarily entail knowledge of non-existent acts of free will.

Precisely what it states: an unreal “event”, i.e. a fiction.

Where does it occur?

It doesn’t occur anywhere or anywhen!

How do you know that God cannot know it?

I don’t! I believe it cannot be known by God.

God does not predict. God knows all the results of our free decisions and obviously knows all actualised decisions. There is not one jot of evidence that a non-existent decision is knowable. Do you think all God’s activity is knowable?

Apparently, you have no difficulty determining that God cannot know “non-existent acts of free will”–whatever those are…

Anyone knows that which does not exist cannot be known.
Do you think all God’s activity is knowable?

There is not one jot of evidence that there are “non-existent” anythings, much less “non-existent acts of free will.” What you are saying makes very little sense to me. You are going to need to explain the terms you are using if we are going to continue this discussion.

The point is precisely that there are no “non-existent” things except in the mind. There is no prelude to a free choice except the thought processes of the person who makes it but even those processes don’t determine the choice. The expression “The buck stops here” sums it up admirably. The buck doesn’t stop with God; otherwise He would be directly responsible for the free choice. In fact it wouldn’t be free at all! The buck stops with us, i.e. we alone initiate the choice and God plays no part in making it - apart of course from giving us the power to make it. I don’t see why sharing free will with us necessitates knowing the use to which it is put. In fact knowledge of our choices would seem to militate against their freedom, as if we are predestined to make them - which would mean they are not really our choices at all but God’s. That is a formidable difficulty that was pointed out by the Catholic Encyclopedia.

There are propositions which are neither true nor false because they do not correspond to reality. In other words they are meaningless. Discursive knowledge of free will is such a proposition because free will is an ultimate fact. It is as nonsensical as the question “How does God exist?”

Thank you for conceding that free will–as you define it–is “meaningless.”

Please explain how reach that conclusion…

1. Do you deny there are propositions which do not correspond to reality?
2. Do you regard all ultimate facts as meaningless?
3. Can you explain the nature of discursive knowledge of free will?

 

[FCCopleston]

tonyrey writes:

Precisely what it states: an unreal “event”, i.e. a fiction.

So, you are defining a free act as unreal “events” in the mind? Can we know these unreal events? If so, why cant’ God?

It doesn’t occur anywhere or anywhen!

So it does not occur in internal deliberations of reason and intellect? How do we know when we make a free decision? If we can know, why can we know it and not God?

I don’t! I believe it cannot be known by God.

On what basis?

Anyone knows that which does not exist cannot be known.
Do you think all God’s activity is knowable?

Let me see if I understand you so far:

1. Free acts do not exist.
2. They are fictions
3. They are unreal
4. We can know our free acts
5. God cannot

The point is precisely that there are no “non-existent” things except in the mind. There is no prelude to a free choice except the thought processes of the person who makes it but even those processes don’t determine the choice. The expression “The buck stops here” sums it up admirably. The buck doesn’t stop with God; otherwise He would be directly responsible for the free choice. In fact it wouldn’t be free at all! The buck stops with us, i.e. we alone initiate the choice and God plays no part in making it - apart of course from giving us the power to make it. I don’t see why sharing free will with us necessitates knowing the use to which it is put. In fact knowledge of our choices would seem to militate against their freedom, as if we are predestined to make them - which would mean they are not really our choices at all but God’s. That is a formidable difficulty that was pointed out by the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Can God not know our thoughts and deliberations either? So God does not know anything about our reason or our wills, just the physical events they produce???

Why would God’s knowledge of our free decisions necessitate that they are God’s choices any more than God’s knowledge of our actualization of our free decisions necessitate that they are God’s actions?

Please explain how reach that conclusion…

1. Do you deny there are propositions which do not correspond to reality?
2. Do you regard all ultimate facts as meaningless?
3. Can you explain the nature of discursive knowledge of free will?

1.) I agree that there are propositions which do not correspond to reality. God knows that, for instance, “tonyrey said a meaningless proposition p today,” but He does not know or regard the meaningless proposition as either true or false because it is neither true nor false. He knows it to be meaningless.

2.) What do you interpret “ultimate fact” to mean in relation to free will?

3.) What exactly are you asking me to answer: how can we directly comprehend free will?

 

[UNtoneD]

Let me see if I understand so far…God knew about lucifer’s disobedience and yet he still created him and the rest of the fallen angels…He knew their thoughts…so does that mean he created evil, since he already knew lucifer’s defiance beforehand…he new adam and eve were going to sin, so why ask them why they were hiding from him……even if I have thoughts and a desire to know him more, he already knows that I wont…im just so confused and and scared of losing whatever faith i have…help me understand !!!..…
Thanx

 

[tonyrey]

Let me see if I understand so far…God knew about lucifer’s disobedience and yet he still created him and the rest of the fallen angels…He knew their thoughts…so does that mean he created evil, since he already knew lucifer’s defiance beforehand…he new adam and eve were going to sin, so why ask them why they were hiding from him……even if I have thoughts and a desire to know him more, he already knows that I wont…im just so confused and and scared of losing whatever faith i have…help me understand !!!..…
Thanx

When we have children we know they and their descendants will sin - and some will commit heinous crimes. Does that mean no one should have children? That God shouldn’t have created anyone at all? Do you wish you had never been born?

 

[tonyrey]

                             So, you are defining a free act as *unreal* "events" in the mind? Can we know these unreal events? If so, why cant' God?

You misunderstand me. I stated quite clearly that free choices don’t exist unless they have been initiated by a person.

So it does not occur in internal deliberations of reason and intellect? How do we know when we make a free decision? If we can know, why can we know it and not God?

Please refer to my previous answer.

Do you think all God’s activity is knowable?

No response!

Let me see if I understand you so far:

1. Free acts do not exist.
2. They are fictions
3. They are unreal
4. We can know our free acts
5. God cannot

Free choices don’t exist unless they have been initiated by a person.Non-existent free choices are fictions, unreal and unknowable.

The point is precisely that there are no “non-existent” things except in the mind. There is no prelude to a free choice except the thought processes of the person who makes it but even those processes don’t determine the choice. The expression “The buck stops here” sums it up admirably. The buck doesn’t stop with God; otherwise He would be directly responsible for the free choice. In fact it wouldn’t be free at all! The buck stops with us, i.e. we alone initiate the choice

and God plays no part in making it - apart of course from giving us the power to make it. I don’t see why sharing free will with us necessitates knowing the use to which it is put. In fact knowledge of our choices would seem to militate against their freedom, as if we are predestined to make them - which would mean they are not really our choices at all but God’s. "Can God not know our thoughts and deliberations either? So God does not know anything about our reason or our wills, just the physical events they produce???

God knows everything about us except the choices we have not made.

Why would God’s knowledge of our free decisions necessitate that they are God’s choices any more than God’s knowledge of our actualization of our free decisions necessitate that they are God’s actions?

Ask the Catholic Encyclopaedia! The relevant sentence:
“But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God’s knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature.”

1.) I agree that there are propositions which do not correspond to reality. God knows that, for instance, “tonyrey said a meaningless proposition p today,” but He does not know or regard the meaningless proposition as either true or false because it is neither true nor false. He knows it to be meaningless.

Do you **always **know whether a proposition you devise about God’s nature is meaningful?

2.) What do you interpret “ultimate fact” to mean in relation to free will?

That free will is a divine attribute.

3.) What exactly are you asking me to answer: how can we directly comprehend free will?

Yes - and explain its modus operandi.

 

[veritas82]

why is it irrational to believe in a God who didnt reveal everything about Himself.To understand God entirely we would have to have the mind of God.It takes no faith to believe in God if He revealed everything about Himself.Faith is the only way we can show thatt we love Him.

‘We said that love desires the existence of the object of love and that, in reality, the object of love is nonexistent. This is because for the lover, the object of love is the desire to achieve union with a specific individual, whoever it may be. If it is someone whom it is appropriate to embrace, then he loves the embracing. If it is someone with whom sexual intercourse can be had, then he loves the sexual intercourse. If it is someone to be sat with, then he loves the sitting.’ [Muhyiddin ibn al 'Arabi]
Sorry, I haven’t really read this thread, but I did with valentino’s post and it struck a cord. In someways if your love attaches to a physical entity then once you have it you become bored because it can offer no more and so we find love dissappates (maybe why we’re finding 50% of marriages aren’t working these days with the focus on the outward). However if your love attaches to something more profound like another’s soul then it cannot become bored because you cannot encompass it. So perhaps a wisdom to God’s Mystery is this, because no matter how much you ‘know’ of God there is an ocean, still yet un-tapped. By not being able to grasp Him we continually try, and with every faliure we struggle yet more - become drowned in Divine Love.
God knows best

 

[veritas82]

Tonrey You mentioned in another thread - assumiing I understood you correctly - that God cannot know if we make a decision before we have. I must say that I’m some what confused by this; what is the difference between knowing how one will act in the future (which I believe you said, God can know) and what they will decide? Maybe I didn’t understand you correctly, but perhaps you were talking about a person’s intention? If so then I still cannot see how there is a difference relative to God. Since God’s knowledge is All Knowing it therefore means it is not limited to the manifest, it can know the hidden as well. In addition to the created and uncreated. In a nutshell are we trying to understand the seemingly contradictory concepts of free will vs Divine Providence? (Interestingly ‘providence’ comes from Latin providentia from pro- “ahead” + videre " to see" giving a sense of foresight.)

 

[tonyrey]

Tonyrey You mentioned in another thread - assuming I understood you correctly - that God cannot know if we make a decision before we have. I must say that I’m some what confused by this; what is the difference between knowing how one will act in the future (which I believe you said, God can know) and what they will decide?

God knows everything about us that is knowable. He knows an existing decision but not a non-existing one because there is nothing to know!

Maybe I didn’t understand you correctly, but perhaps you were talking about a person’s intention? If so then I still cannot see how there is a difference relative to God. Since God’s knowledge is All Knowing it therefore means it is not limited to the manifest, it can know the hidden as well. In addition to the created and uncreated.

God knows us before He created us because He created us but He does not create our decisions. If He did they would be His, not ours. We alone bring them into existence.

In a nutshell are we trying to understand the seemingly contradictory concepts of free will vs Divine Providence? (Interestingly ‘providence’ comes from Latin providentia from pro- “ahead” + videre " to see" giving a sense of foresight.)

Precisely! As I wrote in another post:

There is no prelude to a free choice except the thought processes of the person who makes it but even those processes don’t determine the choice. The expression “The buck stops here” sums it up admirably. The buck doesn’t stop with God; otherwise He would be directly responsible for the free choice. In fact it wouldn’t be free at all! The buck stops with us, i.e. we alone initiate the choice and God plays no part in making it - apart of course from giving us the power to make it…

Knowledge of our choices would seem to militate against their freedom, as if we are predestined to make them - which would mean they are not really our choices at all but God’s…our acts of free will are not only supernatural but quasi-divine! They entail participation in the very power of God and enable us to achieve the incredible feat of defying His Will and rejecting His love for all eternity. That is not what you can call an everyday occurrence. There must be something unique and mysterious about free will, don’t you think? That a minute speck in the vast universe can rebel against the omnipotent Creator is probably the most astounding suggestion that has ever been made…

 

[veritas82]

God knows everything about us that is knowable. He knows an existing decision but not a non-existing one because there is nothing to know!

I believe we have an incoherency here; does something have to have ‘being’ (i.e. exist) to be known? Concepts in my mind have no physical form they cannot be found. Thoughts, concepts etc are intelligible only they do not have substance. We can know non-existent things. Looking at a fairly crude example:
I may predict my wife will not like that piece of clothing
Her liking or not liking has no existence
I may be correct because I know her well, yet my prediction is independent (i.e. has no affect at all on her opinion) of her liking or not liking of that piece of clothing.
Whether my wife actually sees the clothing and makes a decision or not still does not affect my predicition being true or otherwise.
God can do better than predict He knows so in this sense his ‘prediction’ is always true whether it happens or not - He would know what would have happened if Harold had won at Hastings and not William for example. To be All Knowing (which I’m sure you agree with) means He has no limitations.
Before you were made, He knew of you despite your non-existence because you are of possible existence just as any brother/sister that may or may not be are possible. Yet he can also know of anger which has no existence or of another colour that is not existent and will never be. Anything to the contrary would seem like putting contingencies on the absolute!?! Which thus would be incoherent, like I said knowing some ‘thing’ does not necessitate it having existence.

God knows us before He created us because He created us but He does not create our decisions. If He did they would be His, not ours.

Leaving some incredibly complex mystical philosophy aside, then this still seems incoherent. Knowing something does not necessitate willing it. If God creates something with the potential to sin and it does (which He knew anyway) then He is not culpable because it comes from the person’s will and not His. Just because God knew his decision to sin does not mean it came from His will. So why let it happen? There is no logical reason why He shouldn’t. Of course from a mystical point of view then it makes more sense this way.

The buck stops with us, i.e. we alone initiate the choice and God plays no part in making it - apart of course from giving us the power to make it.

This still agrees with the above

There must be something unique and mysterious about free will, don’t you think?

Indeed The fact that this has caused much discussion attests to its mystery.

 

[FCCopleston]

tonyrey writes:

You misunderstand me. I stated quite clearly that free choices don’t exist unless they have been initiated by a person.

How are they initiated? Why can we know our decisions but God cannot, especially since God is sharing His power with us, namely, His divine attribute of free will?

No response!

I have responded to this question several dozen times, actually. My point was to show that you are the one that claims to presume that God cannot know our free choices.

God knows everything about us except the choices we have not made.
Ask the Catholic Encyclopaedia! The relevant sentence:
“But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God’s knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature.”

Again, it seems that you are placing our choice within time. I thought that our free choices were timeless?

How does the Catholic Encyclopedia support your argument? It does not define free will or free decisions in the same way you are defining them. Your argument cannot sustain itself on equivocation forever.

Do you **always **know whether a proposition you devise about God’s nature is meaningful?

If it is based upon God’s revelation, then yes, we can be sure of it. And God’s revelation says that the Spirit of God searches and knows all things, even the deep things of God.

That free will is a divine attribute.

Are you saying that our wills are as sovereign and free as God’s? That’s like saying that our knowledge is of an equivalent quality to God’s–which is essentially what you do. By defining omniscience as “knowing what it is possible to know,” you make literally everything omniscient. For instance, I am omniscient because I know all that it is possible for me to know. A rock is omniscient because it can know all that is possible for it to know. God is omniscient because He knows all that it is possible for Him to know. The only difference is that God knows–presumably, because on your view we cannot even be sure(!)–the most possible things to know.

Do we not also have other divine attributes, such as reason and love? Can God not know these as well?

Yes - and explain its modus operandi.

Free will is a mystery. What I am arguing for is not an exhaustive explanation of what free will is, but for the fact that God knows our free will decisions. I find your position to be repugnant to both Scripture (which clearly states that God knows all of the ways of man–including His thoughts, decisions, and deliberations) and reason (the history natural theology has consistently defined omniscience as “knowing all true propositions,” not “knowing all possible true propositions.”) You seem to be oblivious to both of these facts.

 

[UNtoneD]

When we have children we know they and their descendants will sin - and some will commit heinous crimes. Does that mean no one should have children? That God shouldn’t have created anyone at all? Do you wish you had never been born?

Can you answer the one about lucifer?..God created evil then, right?

 

[FCCopleston]

Can you answer the one about lucifer?..God created evil then, right?

Foreknowledge is not causal. That is, it does not follow, simply because God foreknows the free acts of His creatures, that God causes the free acts of His creatures. God does not create evil in us, but rather evil is the result of our free divergence from God’s will, and the consequent brokenness of our relationship with Him.

I would recommend reading St. Augustine’s The Problem of Free Choice, or where he touches on this issue in City of God.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

 

[UNtoneD]

Foreknowledge is not causal. That is, it does not follow, simply because God foreknows the free acts of His creatures, that God causes the free acts of His creatures. God does not create evil in us, but rather evil is the result of our free divergence from God’s will, and the consequent brokenness of our relationship with Him.

I would recommend reading St. Augustine’s The Problem of Free Choice, or where he touches on this issue in City of God.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

I understand the fall of man. I wonder if God knew in his mind that there was going to be a rebellion of his angels and he still created them…if so, why?..is it all part of Gods’ plan?

 

[tonyrey]

When we have children we know they and their descendants will sin - and some will commit heinous crimes. Does that mean no one should have children? That God shouldn’t have created anyone at all? Do you wish you had never been born?

It is a mistake to equate Lucifer with evil. He was not compelled to rebel. God created him with free will…

 

[tonyrey]

You misunderstand me. I stated quite clearly that free choices don’t exist unless they have been initiated by a person.

Who knows? Perhaps that is an unanswerable question!

Why can we know our decisions but God cannot, especially since God is sharing His power with us, namely, His divine attribute of free will?

You are assuming we know our non-existent decisions. God knows them as well as we do if they are real.

My point was to show that you are the one that claims to presume that God cannot know our free choices.

Don’t you presume that God knows our free choices?
God knows everything about us except that which is unchosen.

“But the difficulty is: how, from our finite point of view, to interpret and explain the mysterious manner of God’s knowledge of such events without at the same time sacrificing the free will of the creature.”

Again, it seems that you are placing our choice within time. I thought that our free choices were timeless?

Like God’s activity the results of many of our choices occur in time but like our souls our choices transcend time.

How does the Catholic Encyclopedia support your argument? It does not define free will or free decisions in the same way you are defining them.

It does not even mention whether our potential choices and decisions are knowable.

Do you always know whether a proposition you devise about God’s nature is meaningful?

If it is based upon God’s revelation, then yes, we can be sure of it. And God’s revelation says that the Spirit of God searches and knows all things, even the deep things of God.

It does not say non-existent choices and non-existent decisions are knowable.

Are you saying that our wills are as sovereign and free as God’s?

No. God is omnipotent and He can withdraw our power if He chooses to do so. But He is not inconsistent. Why give us free will in the first place when He knows we will abuse it? Because without free will we are incapable of love.

That’s like saying that our knowledge is of an equivalent quality to God’s–which is essentially what you do. By defining omniscience as “knowing what it is possible to know,” you make literally everything omniscient.

Not at all. The nature of the one who knows has to be taken into account. The Creator obviously knows infinitely more than a creature.

For instance, I am omniscient because I know all that it is possible for me to know.

You are omniscient as far as your finite experience is concerned!

A rock is omniscient because it can know all that is possible for it to know.

Which is precisely nothing! So its omniscience amounts to nescience…

God is omniscient because He knows all that it is possible for Him to know. The only difference is that God knows–presumably, because on your view we cannot even be sure(!)–the most possible things to know.

We have very good reason to believe God knows everything that can be known because we believe He created everything. If you know God knows everything you do not need faith…

Do we not also have other divine attributes, such as reason and love? Can God not know these as well?

God does not know non-existent conclusions and non-existent acts of love - which both presuppose non-existent choices - because they are all unknowable. It is absurd to believe that **which does not exist **can be known. Can you know the content of emptiness?

Free will is a mystery. What I am arguing for is not an exhaustive explanation of what free will is, but for the fact that God knows our free will decisions.

Of course He does - when they exist!

I find your position to be repugnant to both Scripture (which clearly states that God knows all of the ways of man–including His thoughts, decisions, and deliberations) and reason (the history natural theology has consistently defined omniscience as “knowing all true propositions,” not “knowing all possible true propositions.”) You seem to be oblivious to both of these facts.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that “not knowing all possible true propositions” is precisely what I am maintaining! Anything that is possible is knowable only as a possibility because the realm of possibility is distinct from reality. Truth is correspondence to reality, not to that which does not exist.