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Mythicalbio
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He knows both.
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JamesCaruso
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To say ‘He is not bound by it’ is different from saying that ‘He has bound Himself by it’. Is it not possible that in creating free will God by an act of His Will, prevented Himself from knowing how men would use the free will He gave them?
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BlueMaxx
Guest
No…To say ‘He is not bound by it’ is different from saying that ‘He has bound Himself by it’. Is it not possible that in creating free will God by an act of His Will, prevented Himself from knowing how men would use the free will He gave them?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
My problem is with the definition of Omniscience itself, and more specifically, the definition of “things”. I can accept that God knows all things. I’m having trouble with the concept of “things.” To me, perhaps incorrectly, a thing is something that does exist or which has existed. But must I accept that a thing is something that thus far has never existed. It may be the concept of a thing, but it can’t be the thing itself and it may never exist. It is speculative at best. When I say God does not know my future free will decisions, I am saying He does know all things, but since my future free will decision does not yet exist, it does not qualify as a “thing” in the sense of something that exists or has existed. I am not trying to put a limit on God, but I am suggesting that perhaps God deliberately put a limitation on Himself in order to endow man with free will. When I use the word limitation I do not mean anything sinister or lessening of God, but in the sense that God is limited to doing good because He is Perfect and can do no evil. That is, God cannot contradict Himself, nor can He contradict the things that He has made. The question is, did God create man with an ability to choose that which God cannot foresee that he will choose? He can foresee all the possibilities, but can He not know by self-imposed limitation, the free will decisions of a man. Help me out of this quandary. I’m afraid my one-cell brain is overworked.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Well, I guess that settles that. For you, anyway. Not exactly the explanation I hoped to get. People here can be so touchy, and perhaps not you but many seem to see themselves superior to everyone else. Maybe, this is not the place to come for Catholic answers.
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Wesrock
Guest
The only future (to us) knowledge God could reveal is knowledge that will still result in the same outcome. Anything else is a contradiction and impossibility and so not a possible power to have. Your hypothetical assumes a self-contradiction occurs. There is no capacity for such an occurrence or revelation to begin with, so your hypothetical fails.Not so fast. God’s knowledge is supposed to be absolute, not contingent. So regardless of the revelation he is assumed to know what we shall choose. But since the revelation allows us to act contrarian to that revelation, God’s knowledge is contingent upon NOT revealing the future. Also obvious.
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Wesrock
Guest
Molinism and Thomism are the dominant theories regarding free choice and God’s sovereignty in Catholicism, and neither endorses the extreme type of free will you’re referring to.My problem is with the definition of Omniscience itself, and more specifically, the definition of “things”. I can accept that God knows all things. I’m having trouble with the concept of “things.” To me, perhaps incorrectly, a thing is something that does exist or which has existed. But must I accept that a thing is something that thus far has never existed. It may be the concept of a thing, but it can’t be the thing itself and it may never exist. It is speculative at best. When I say God does not know my future free will decisions, I am saying He does know all things, but since my future free will decision does not yet exist, it does not qualify as a “thing” in the sense of something that exists or has existed. I am not trying to put a limit on God, but I am suggesting that perhaps God deliberately put a limitation on Himself in order to endow man with free will. When I use the word limitation I do not mean anything sinister or lessening of God, but in the sense that God is limited to doing good because He is Perfect and can do no evil. That is, God cannot contradict Himself, nor can He contradict the things that He has made. The question is, did God create man with an ability to choose that which God cannot foresee that he will choose? He can foresee all the possibilities, but can He not know by self-imposed limitation, the free will decisions of a man. Help me out of this quandary. I’m afraid my one-cell brain is overworked.
God always relates to his creatures as cause to effect. Never as effect to cause.
God is the cause all real things and would-be cause of all possible things. He not only creates them but endows them with their natures which determine their operation. God’s knowledge is not based on observation of things. It’s based on him as their cause, and him knowing Himself completely. Whatever exists or could exist is within God’s power, and therefore he knows them.
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Wesrock
Guest
No, that is not possible.To say ‘He is not bound by it’ is different from saying that ‘He has bound Himself by it’. Is it not possible that in creating free will God by an act of His Will, prevented Himself from knowing how men would use the free will He gave them?
And the consequences of your proposal are that God would be decreasing his perfection and is mutable.
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BlueMaxx
Guest
Ok, stop trying to “out think” God and rest easy in faith…I am in no way superior…I am a lowly sinner who is just very thankful for God’s grace.Well, I guess that settles that. For you, anyway. Not exactly the explanation I hoped to get. People here can be so touchy, and perhaps not you but many seem to see themselves superior to everyone else. Maybe, this is not the place to come for Catholic answers.
Not being touchy, you asked a question and I answered.
I think what you’re hung up on is the definitiveness of my answer.
If you wish to go elsewhere for real answers, read the catechism…or look up issues that you have questions about in it.
Then you are getting the answers straight from the Church Jesus founded.
That will take out the emotional response aspect of your questions.
Hope that helped…
God bless,
M
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BlueMaxx
Guest
ARTICLE I
“I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH”
Paragraph 3. The Almighty
268 Of all the divine attributes, only God’s omnipotence is named in the Creed: to confess this power has great bearing on our lives. We believe that his might is universal , for God who created everything also rules everything and can do everything. God’s power is loving, for he is our Father, and mysterious , for only faith can discern it when it “is made perfect in weakness”.103
"He does whatever he pleases"104
269 The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob”, the “LORD of hosts”, the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth”, it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?107
"You are merciful to all, for you can do all things"108
270 God is the Father Almighty, whose fatherhood and power shed light on one another: God reveals his fatherly omnipotence by the way he takes care of our needs; by the filial adoption that he gives us (“I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty”):109 finally by his infinite mercy, for he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins.
271 God’s almighty power is in no way arbitrary: "In God, power, essence, will, intellect, wisdom, and justice are all identical. Nothing therefore can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or his wise intellect."110
“I BELIEVE IN GOD THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH”
Paragraph 3. The Almighty
268 Of all the divine attributes, only God’s omnipotence is named in the Creed: to confess this power has great bearing on our lives. We believe that his might is universal , for God who created everything also rules everything and can do everything. God’s power is loving, for he is our Father, and mysterious , for only faith can discern it when it “is made perfect in weakness”.103
"He does whatever he pleases"104
269 The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob”, the “LORD of hosts”, the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth”, it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?107
"You are merciful to all, for you can do all things"108
270 God is the Father Almighty, whose fatherhood and power shed light on one another: God reveals his fatherly omnipotence by the way he takes care of our needs; by the filial adoption that he gives us (“I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty”):109 finally by his infinite mercy, for he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins.
271 God’s almighty power is in no way arbitrary: "In God, power, essence, will, intellect, wisdom, and justice are all identical. Nothing therefore can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or his wise intellect."110
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BlueMaxx
Guest
The mystery of God’s apparent powerlessness
272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."111 It is in Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.112
273 Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power.113 The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that “nothing will be impossible with God”, and was able to magnify the Lord: "For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name."114
274 "Nothing is more apt to confirm our faith and hope than holding it fixed in our minds that nothing is impossible with God. Once our reason has grasped the idea of God’s almighty power, it will easily and without any hesitation admit everything that [the Creed] will afterwards propose for us to believe - even if they be great and marvelous things, far above the ordinary laws of nature."115
272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."111 It is in Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.112
273 Only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power.113 The Virgin Mary is the supreme model of this faith, for she believed that “nothing will be impossible with God”, and was able to magnify the Lord: "For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name."114
274 "Nothing is more apt to confirm our faith and hope than holding it fixed in our minds that nothing is impossible with God. Once our reason has grasped the idea of God’s almighty power, it will easily and without any hesitation admit everything that [the Creed] will afterwards propose for us to believe - even if they be great and marvelous things, far above the ordinary laws of nature."115
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JerryZ
Guest
This is probably because you are thinking about time like an abstract entity that we measure and use to measure the way change is happening around us.
The issue is that Time is not an abstract. It is a dimension of our Universe. So just like there is an up/down, left/right and front/back which in mathematics are referred as the X, Y and Z axis of the tridimensional space so is also Time. Time began at the same moment the other dimension were created in the Big Bang.
Now GOD is not a part of this Universe. HE created it therefore HE cannot be contained in it. HE is the one that sustains its existence. And since HE created TIME as well as the other dimensions when HE created the Universe. HE does have full knowledge of the end of TIME when this Universe will cease to exist. There are 2 main theories of how it will end but that is the topic of another thread.
Peace!
The issue is that Time is not an abstract. It is a dimension of our Universe. So just like there is an up/down, left/right and front/back which in mathematics are referred as the X, Y and Z axis of the tridimensional space so is also Time. Time began at the same moment the other dimension were created in the Big Bang.
Now GOD is not a part of this Universe. HE created it therefore HE cannot be contained in it. HE is the one that sustains its existence. And since HE created TIME as well as the other dimensions when HE created the Universe. HE does have full knowledge of the end of TIME when this Universe will cease to exist. There are 2 main theories of how it will end but that is the topic of another thread.
Peace!
M
Montrose
Guest
Yes God knows what we will all do because he is eternally present.There is a difference between what a man might do and what he will do. Do you want to rephrase that? While God man know all the possibilities of what a man might do, the question is, does he know what he will actually do?
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I see partially what you are saying. But if God chose to make man a finite “causer” by giving him free will, is that not worthy of consideration? I’m not sure what you mean by extreme free will as I am not as studied on the subject as you. I know that man is pretty much unfree in what he does, governed by his appetites or by his quest for holiness. But there is a freedom somewhere in all that I think. And I know that man cannot determine events because although he intends to murder, say, Pope St. John Paul II, God can ensure that the bullet does not hit its intended mark or He can make the gun jam. Man is helpless to make history go his way. My query is whether he has not imposed a blindness on Himself, which only He could do, by creating man with free will? Or would this be for God to deny who He is? (which he clearly cannot do) Maybe, the latter is the answer and something I need to ponder. How dumb we are when we try to fathom infinite mysteries!
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I am not trying to be argumentative, but being always present, does that not mean, unchanging, in other words, God has no future because He is always the same. We, too, like God only live in the present, but the difference is that we are constantly changing, and this is what gives rise to the concept of time, that is, a past and a future. In this way of looking at it, there is nothing but present for either God or man, but our “future” present does not yet exist. When it exists, it will be our present and then, only when it exists, it will also be in God’s present (because if it doesn’t exist, it cannot be in anyone’s present). But I am having trouble seeing how our “future” present, which does not yet exist, can be in God’s present. It’s hard for me to see that God’s present is not the same as our present except for the fact that He never changes (of course, besides all His other infinite attributes).
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I do understand what you are saying. I think the best I can do for now is accept the teachings of greater minds than my own, because for the life of me, I cannot understand free will and foreknowledge in the same breath. It just seems that God has imposed a blindspot on Himself in endowing man with free will. As I concluded earlier, it may be that God cannot impose a blindspot on Himself because that would be to contradict Who He is. That’s as close as I can get to it with my own feeble thinking. And each time I come to this point I sense it in my spirit that I can go no farther and that must be the answer. God did not create man at some point in infinity because there is no point in infinity, so yes, then God must know our future free will decisions and “being outside of time” does indeed say that God knows the past, the present and the future in all things. I feel confident that this is the answer and it’s what everyone has been trying to tell me. Does it make sense that I still don’t understand it, but I am confident that it is so?
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JerryZ
Guest
Some things are really too far out of our reach and this is why we call them Mysteries. Some we might get to understand and yet others will be always hidden from us. That does not diminish us. On the contrary it shows that GOD gave us this thirst for understanding and we act it out.
We are all on the path of learning. Keep searching and seeking out the truth.
Peace!
We are all on the path of learning. Keep searching and seeking out the truth.
Peace!
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JamesCaruso
Guest
Sorry I imputed touchiness to your writing style, but that’s how I took it and even so this last message. I have been honestly struggling with this idea for a long time, but now I see my error. I never saw myself as challenging a teaching of the Church, but only attempted to understand the meaning of omniscience. It was my definition of terms that took me down the wrong path. I could easily do what some people do and memorize what the fathers have taught and accept it with blind faith. This exploration into the meaning of omniscience has led me to believe in just what the Church is teaching and in the same terms that it is teaching it. So thanks for suffering me, and this to others, too, because all this discussion has helped me understand things I was missing. I came into the discussion with an open mind and I have learned, so thank you for your patience. Different people wording their understandings in different ways allowed me to finally see everything in a new light.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
I want to thank everyone who helped me with my understanding of God’s Omniscience. I came into the discussion with an open mind yet thinking that most everyone else was probably wrong in their understanding, but thanks to different people stating their understanding in different ways, it finally started becoming clear that it was I who was in error. I now feel I understand why the Fathers taught what they taught and I am thankful for your patience in bringing me to that understanding. Blessings!
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Montrose
Guest
Because God is outside time.I am not trying to be argumentative, but being always present, does that not mean, unchanging, in other words, God has no future because He is always the same. We, too, like God only live in the present, but the difference is that we are constantly changing, and this is what gives rise to the concept of time, that is, a past and a future. In this way of looking at it, there is nothing but present for either God or man, but our “future” present does not yet exist. When it exists, it will be our present and then, only when it exists, it will also be in God’s present (because if it doesn’t exist, it cannot be in anyone’s present). But I am having trouble seeing how our “future” present, which does not yet exist, can be in God’s present. It’s hard for me to see that God’s present is not the same as our present except for the fact that He never changes (of course, besides all His other infinite attributes).
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