what does one say to an agnostic?

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when they say: “I think it is stupid to base your whole being in something so much that you don’t live your life the way you actually want to…I also think it is stupid for people to go through life scared of everything that “might” happen to them.”

this is open for both catholics and protestants.
 
when they say: “I think it is stupid to base your whole being in something so much that you don’t live your life the way you actually want to…I also think it is stupid for people to go through life scared of everything that “might” happen to them.”

this is open for both catholics and protestants.
Ask what they want to do so badly that it stops them from finding out what to believe in. Also, say you don’t go about scared of everything that might happen. You trust God to keep you from harm until it’s your time to go, and you look forward to being with Him one day, forever.
 
also just how are you not living the way you want to?

Alot of people think of submitting to Jesus as limiting and dont realise its actually freeing. There is a reason He set us free, but if theyve not felt it then its hard to describe.
 
when they say: “I think it is stupid to base your whole being in something so much that you don’t live your life the way you actually want to…I also think it is stupid for people to go through life scared of everything that “might” happen to them.”
What I say is “There’s very little sense in devoting your whole life on baseless religious superstitions that is really not anymore credible than the next religion on the market”. Unless you are just being a cultural/cradle catholic, a cultural/moderate muslim, a humanist jew…meaning you merely associate with it and dont really take it seriously enough to have it control your life.
 
The greatest act of freedom/free will/free choice is my choosing to be bound by the laws of my God.
 
The greatest act of freedom/free will/free choice is my choosing to be bound by the laws of my God.
That is absolutely true. However sometimes such ‘laws’ require religious guys like you to enjorce them upon non-believers like me. 😦
 
when they say: “I think it is stupid to base your whole being in something so much that you don’t live your life the way you actually want to…I also think it is stupid for people to go through life scared of everything that “might” happen to them.”
firstly, religious people follow a code of conduct out of conviction not out of fear.

secondly, there is a huge difference in the believer and the non-believer’s idea of freedom. the non-believer thinks freedom consists of an individual’s ability to do whatever he or she wants, whereas the believer defines freedom as having the ability to reject what is unworthy of them as children of god. from the believer’s standpoint, theirs is a superior freedom because the non-believer’s sense of freedom is ultimately illusory. they think they have employed the freedom to indulge in lust (or some other disordered appetite or desire) whereas in reality they are slaves to lust.

the believer hopes to conquer whatever undesirable inclinations they have through being a slave to god’s will. they hope to achieve freedom from slavery to our baser nature, by embracing the limitations that god has set out for them. by gladly becoming a slave to god their master, they hope to escape from being a slave of themselves and their own baser desires.
 
whereas the believer defines freedom as having the ability to reject what is unworthy of them as children of god
problem is sometimes the believer thinks its unworthy of them to allow non-believers to do whatever they want.

your kind of mentality made possible the intolerance in saudi arabia, the intolerance in medieval europe, and the intolerance in biblical jerusalem.
 
problem is sometimes the believer thinks its unworthy of them to allow non-believers to do whatever they want.

your kind of mentality made possible the intolerance in saudi arabia, the intolerance in medieval europe, and the intolerance in biblical jerusalem.
so as long as i espouse a theistic worldview, i’m an agent of intolerance? i think you’re painting with an awfully broad brush there.
 
so as long as i espouse a theistic worldview, i’m an agent of intolerance? i think you’re painting with an awfully broad brush there.
I am just referring to people who thinks that freedom is doing everything that religion requires of you.Nowadays people like you are very few among christians & jews. But people like you are still prevalent in the muslim world.
 
I think that one problem that so many Christians (and other religious people) have is the idea that only followers of their faith are moral people. Just because someone is agnostic, or even atheist, does not mean that they do not live by a code of ethics or are good, caring people. We did not corner the market on goodness. There is a chance that we feel that these things a non-Christian wants is always immoral when in fact it may be more about “self-determination.”
 
I think that one problem that so many Christians (and other religious people) have is the idea that only followers of their faith are moral people. Just because someone is agnostic, or even atheist, does not mean that they do not live by a code of ethics or are good, caring people. We did not corner the market on goodness. There is a chance that we feel that these things a non-Christian wants is always immoral when in fact it may be more about “self-determination.”
However, in the West, the morality that exists, (or rather what’s left of it) is derived from Christianity. Specifically, it is derived from Catholicism as Catholicism was the predominant influence on our culture for some 1500 hundred years.

The atheists and agnostics you meet in the West often espouse and live by virtues which are largely derived from Christianity. This is because the Christian ethic pervades our society. It is the background ethic, so much so that people take many of these ideas for granted.

These include ideas like: individual human beings are important; life is valuable; individuals have the right to property; children are people and are valuable, etc.

These ideas are often taken as self-evident. However, they are not. In many cultures of the world they never evolved. Individuals were always seen as subordinate to the group or tribe. Children had little or no worth.

As just one example, think of Hinduism. Hinduism has many positive aspects. But a very negative aspect is its absence of any importance of the individual. People are not seen as inherently deserving of dignity simply because they are people. Traditionally, an entire Caste of people is deemed the “Untouchables” and they are shunned by everyone. To enter this Caste, one has simply to be born to parents who are in it.

If they were truly self-evident, all cultures would believe the ideas listed previously. My point is that those ideas are largely derived from Judeo-Christian philosophy. I am not claiming that they are unique to this philosophy, but in our culture this is their source.

Atheists immersed in our culture have absorbed these ideas and frequently don’t realize their ultimate source. Having been taught them since birth, they have the feeling of plainness which makes them appear self-evident. Such a thing could not be further from the truth.

There is no rational code derived from Atheism or Agnosticism which would lead to such ideas. History declares this. Simply look at those in the past who have acted in accord in with the thinking of atheism. This includes men like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and their minions.

Ultimately, goodness as we know it comes from the Church. The stamp the Church has made on our culture is so deep, that those who live within it hold many of its moral positions without realizing that they do. They simply take them for granted.
 
I am just referring to people who thinks that freedom is doing everything that religion requires of you.Nowadays people like you are very few among christians & jews. But people like you are still prevalent in the muslim world.
i’m having a tough time following your train of thought here. what makes you think that i am intolerant of other faiths? i believe in freedom of religion. if you’ve read my posts on the non-catholic religions forum you’ll see i’m opposed to religious bigotry. i’m also in favor of ecumenism and dialogue, like my church.

i don’t see how anything you’ve posted so far is actually a response to what i posted about the distinction between a believer and non-believer’s concept of freedom. instead i’m told that there are a lot of people who think like me in the muslim world. what’s up with that?

i think you have a preconceived idea of what religious people are like and whenever someone speaks of the value of faith it sets off a red flag in your brain that in turn launches ad hominem attacks.
 
However, in the West, the morality that exists, (or rather what’s left of it) is derived from Christianity. Specifically, it is derived from Catholicism as Catholicism was the predominant influence on our culture for some 1500 hundred years.

The atheists and agnostics you meet in the West often espouse and live by virtues which are largely derived from Christianity. This is because the Christian ethic pervades our society. It is the background ethic, so much so that people take many of these ideas for granted.

These include ideas like: individual human beings are important; life is valuable; individuals have the right to property; children are people and are valuable, etc.

These ideas are often taken as self-evident. However, they are not. In many cultures of the world they never evolved. Individuals were always seen as subordinate to the group or tribe. Children had little or no worth.

As just one example, think of Hinduism. Hinduism has many positive aspects. But a very negative aspect is its absence of any importance of the individual. People are not seen as inherently deserving of dignity simply because they are people. Traditionally, an entire Caste of people is deemed the “Untouchables” and they are shunned by everyone. To enter this Caste, one has simply to be born to parents who are in it.

If they were truly self-evident, all cultures would believe the ideas listed previously. My point is that those ideas are largely derived from Judeo-Christian philosophy. I am not claiming that they are unique to this philosophy, but in our culture this is their source.

Atheists immersed in our culture have absorbed these ideas and frequently don’t realize their ultimate source. Having been taught them since birth, they have the feeling of plainness which makes them appear self-evident. Such a thing could not be further from the truth.

There is no rational code derived from Atheism or Agnosticism which would lead to such ideas. History declares this. Simply look at those in the past who have acted in accord in with the thinking of atheism. This includes men like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and their minions.

Ultimately, goodness as we know it comes from the Church. The stamp the Church has made on our culture is so deep, that those who live within it hold many of its moral positions without realizing that they do. They simply take them for granted.
I agree with you completely. I am pointing out that sometimes the issue is not that the non-believer wants to have an affair etc. but may have a problem with athority (i.e. being told that they cannot have the affair). I think that we do not need to assume that the issue is always based in a desire to live in opposition to God’s law
 
That is absolutely true. However sometimes such ‘laws’ require religious guys like you to enjorce them upon non-believers like me. 😦
Hey, you’re not a nonbeliever. You’re an alternate believer. You don’t have to worry about me. Unless God gives me some specific instructions. Then future generations may be reading about the binding of AgnosTheist 🙂
 
problem is sometimes the believer thinks its unworthy of them to allow non-believers to do whatever they want.

your kind of mentality made possible the intolerance in saudi arabia, the intolerance in medieval europe, and the intolerance in biblical jerusalem.
Keeping in mind we are not perfect, only God is. Humanity makes mistakes and sometimes second guess what God wants and take over with their own missions to solve problems. Sometimes well meaning, sometimes using God as a opportunity, both ending in disaster and well documented.

Dont forget there are some who just care and want the best for you so will actually follow Gods playbook and encourge you. But history doenst speak much of them.

🙂
 
Hi

I would just say very politely and simply that he should believe in one GodAllahYHWH and worship Him. If he likes I would present many sound arguments from Quran, no compulsion.

Thanks
 
This argument against religious belief is not really a good one. Several counter-arguments could well be formulated, but I’d first ask the agnostic for the reasons for their beliefs. Intelligent agnostics in my experience (from Mirdath to Anthony Kenny) are able to give reasons for their beliefs. This belief simply sounds more like practical atheism, rather than a position arrived at by methodical reflection.
 
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