What does Porneia mean?

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Paul only wrote

to the Church they (the apostles) were building. The Catholic Church.
No writer of the NT wrote to anybody else other than to the Church or one in the Church.
By definition then, they (the recipients of letter or Gospel) are ALL in the Church, therefore, all baptized,

Yes, I know Paul was writing to the church. When he wrote 1 Corinthians 7:10-15, he was writing to the church about marriage to non-Christians. Therefore, my question about how the Catholic Church determines who is eligible under the Pauline privilege and how “unbeliever” is defined by the Catholic Church.

you didn’t open up this link

Re: Pauline Privilege
From canon law http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/04/04/what-is-the-pauline-privilege/

 

[steve-b]

Examples? Where is masturbation condemned by Moses law?

Id like to know what laws regarding sexual imorality did God command through Moses? Dont you think its safe to assume whatever James and the Apostles intended by porneia had direct relation to Moses’ laws?

Was prostitution even condemned by Mosaic law?
Was sex before marriage condemned by Moses law?

Im not suggesting these things cant be considered forms of porneia, but that James specifically states his reason these things should be required are on account of Moses and what is read in the synagogues concerning him.

there is a connection

1. Library : The Sin of Onan Revisted | Catholic Culture
2. The Sin of Onan | Catholic Answers

 

[rcwitness]

Hmmm… not sure where all the divorce/remarried Christians are. I know they are out there, in droves.

 

[rcwitness]

A very vague connection, in relation to the point i was making.

Obviously i realize those things are immoral. But they arent explicitly condemned in Moses’ Scriptures.

The context of the letter to the Gentile converts was observing Mosaic law. Circumcision was not demanded of them by the Church, while some things were required.

 

[steve-b]

A very vague connection, in relation to the point i was making.

Obviously i realize those things are immoral. But they arent explicitly condemned in Moses’ Scriptures.

The context of the letter to the Gentile converts was observing Mosaic law. Circumcision was not demanded of them by the Church, while some things were required.

immoral acts covers a broad subject matter.

Your original question was

“Examples? Where is masturbation condemned by Moses law?
Id like to know what laws regarding sexual imorality did God command through Moses? Dont you think its safe to assume whatever James and the Apostles intended by porneia had direct relation to Moses’ laws?”

That’s way I gave the following | Catholic Culture
and The Sin of Onan | Catholic Answers

 

[rcwitness]

Ok Steve, so you think that “porneia” in the context of Acts 15 means what??? That the Apostles were trying to adress Onanism and masturbation?

I realize porneia can include any and all sexual immorality. But is that what Matthew used porneia to express? That even masturbation, contraception, and even looking at another person with lust is grounds for divorce?

Or is that approach to the text missing the point all together, and He was actually saying that a relationship formed through porneia (pre-marital sex, prostitution, incest) can be divorced from?

 

[Spyridon]

As a scholar, I think this translates into scholar-speak as:

@Prodigal_Son I have seen you on here multiple times criticize the Churches scholars and act like you know better than them.

So I’ve gotta ask: what are your credentials? Do you have a doctorate level degree in Sacred Theology or Biblical Greek?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

what are your credentials? Do you have a doctorate level degree in Sacred Theology or Biblical Greek?

I have a PhD which involved immersion in ancient Greek, though not Koine Greek. Koine Greek is traditionally understood as more simple than Attic Greek, so that a scholar in Attic Greek can speak intelligently about Koine texts. I do not pretend to be a trained theologian, however. And again, if anyone can find other passages (in ANY ancient Greek text) using “porneia” in the way the RSVCE claims it is used, I would be happy to read such passages.

 

[mkoopman]

I would not generalize this lack of bounds to all conditions. It does imply that a person using another person in this way, with clear knowledge of the Sacrament as a rite, is making a prostitute of the other in the eyes of God. Not a good state in which to live. The escape clause would not appear to be estrangement but marriage.

 

[mkoopman]

It has nothing to do with it. Perhaps the concept of consent is in some way relevant to a valid marriage?
Yeesh.

 

[rcwitness]

I have appreciated your participation in this thread, and i dont think you’ve disrespected Catholic Teaching at all.

The only thing i see you trying to emphisize, is that you prefer a more “word for word” translation of “porneia” and “unlawful marriage” is inappropriate.

And in most cases, i would agree. But this word is quite unique in that all possible meanings shpuld not apply to the contectual use. Unlawful marriage is an example of porneia, right? And it is reasonable to convlude that, in the context of Acts 15, it is what was the intention of the Apostles.

 

[mkoopman]

Thank you for identifying this need to obtain dispensation. So many today ignore the status of the church as a bridge between the now and the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God completed by the sacrifice of The Lamb.

 

[Spyridon]

I don’t know, but it seems like prior to the 1980s porneia was translated as fornication in Matt and Acts, then post 1980 it started being translated as unchasity or unlawful marriage.

@Prodigal_Son, thanks for answering about your credentials, now when you comment about Greek I can take your words with more weight added to them.

Was there some scholarly discovery in philology in the 70s/80s which led to this shift?

 

[rcwitness]

But unlawful marriage and unchastity are forms of fornication.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I don’t know, but it seems like prior to the 1980s porneia was translated as fornication in Matt and Acts, then post 1980 it started being translated as unchasity or unlawful marriage.

@Prodigal_Son, thanks for answering about your credentials, now when you comment about Greek I can take your words with more weight added to them.

Was there some scholarly discovery in philology in the 70s/80s which led to this shift?

Short answer: I don’t know. I think the shift would more likely be in the way Bibles are used, not in the scholarship. In the pre-Vatican II period, Catholics were less likely to read Scriptures like Protestants, by hanging on every word. There was more of a reliance on Scriptural interpretation, I would guess. But with the onset of “study bibles everywhere”, people start expecting their Bible to contain the truth of their faith. If a Catholic reads “fornication” in this passage, he will find it confusing. So scholars change the translation to something they believe to be adequate as a translation, but less confusing. That’s my take, anyway.

 

[mkoopman]

It is “worse” than that and we can ascribe the effect of original sin to many problems in the modern age. Look at the events of the peoples in Europe who were Baptized by coercion, initially.
Political totalitarians are not new nor is the lasting heritage of such structure easily wiped away. Coerced Baptism still joins us to the body of Christ. Is there ever a moment when such action may be justified for any reason? Has the church said it is never possible?
This is a political question vastly different from the reasons why Christian parents need to Baptize children.
The monarch of a nation is often modeled as a type of patriarch but coerced Baptism is wrong. Is it wrong always or is there an exception that would represent the antithesis of the exception to marriage avowal? The nations deserve an answer.

 

[rcwitness]

For what its worth, i believe that the best word for word translation of porneia is fornication.

 

[mkoopman]

So perhaps Matthew was taking a pastoral approach to denying the validity of same sex unions in town? Along with incestuous relationships.
Speculation goes anywhere and Paul was very explicit on homosexual acts.

 

[rcwitness]

The whole point of difference between Catholic and Protestant (though certainly not all Protestants) interpretation of the passage is what marriages Jesus is referring to!

He was NOT saying “If a spouse in a Godly marriage commits a sexual sin, that is cause for divorce from that Godly marriage.”

Rather, He was saying, “If a marriage was unGodly and involved sexual immorality between the married couple themselves, that is cause for divorce.”

Also, Matthew could have been recognizing that St Joseph would have been justified to divorce Mary, if she was unfaithful during the betrothal. Even though betrothal was a step into marriage, it was not a completely consumated marriage. Joseph was stil free to “take her as his wife” or put her away.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So perhaps Matthew was taking a pastoral approach to denying the validity of same sex unions in town? Along with incestuous relationships.

Speculation goes anywhere and Paul was very explicit on homosexual acts.

I don’t see what indication we have here that he is talking about same-sex unions, which was not “a thing” for the Romans. Sure, there were longstanding male couples, but they didn’t have any status as a couple as the word “union” suggests. But yes, a straightforward reading of the passage would include homosexual sex or incest as type of porneia, along with “fornication”.