What does "PROLIFE FOR MEN" mean?

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francisca

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Abortion is wrong and is a murder of human (fetus) life. I do agree with this.
As a catholic, we have to believe this.

However there is unsettling questions in my mind about PROLIFE being one sided heavy responsibility on women’s side, while we are living in “oversexed society” where porn, and free sex is encouranged by culture of men.

Something, somewhere is wrong with PROLIFE as a concept, if without demanding balance responsibility from MEN.

GOD create woman as man’s equal friend.

I supposed if in practice, PROLIFE is merely put pressure on women to keep the fetus, without really building PROLIFE CONCEPT FOR MEN, then PROLIFE may work at the cost of “gender oppression”. Women becomes breeding slaves, while men “enjoy the free ride”.

So what’s PROLIFE FOR MEN means?
  • morally - what men culpability of in the case of abortion
  • socially - how to avoid “gender oppression”
  • practically - what law/ rules of the game
  • culturally - what ought to change and how
and after we know all the answers, the bottom line is SO WHAT question that has to be answered with acheivable change, hence PROLIFE FOR MEN.

Previous posts:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13193370&postcount=134

posted on this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=972928

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13193451&postcount=137

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13194489&postcount=144
 
The sexual revolution does seem unfair to women…and–especially to the children!
 
Um…I’m not sure if you’re asking a question or just proposing an idea for us to think about…but I’ll keep the conversation going.

I think you make a good point. I think that pro-life men should evangelize a more responsible and Christian view of love and sex.

If men are held more accountable for proliferating a culture that values pleasure separate from commitment, it’s no wonder that abortion is so rampant! If men are able to just walk away from a sexual encounter, of course women are going to fight for that same ability! I don’t blame them, but I am sad for them, because it’s all our (men’s) fault 😊

So pro-life men need to attack the culture, not specifically of abortion (though I think they can do that, too), but I think we have more authority speaking about the damage of reckless sex.
 
If you really think about it, all the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding sexuality are because human life is priceless.

Premarital sex is immoral, it can lead to the conception of a human. That new little human does not have the benefit of being born to a father and mother in a stable, loving relationship.
 
Stephen_says said:
Um…I’m not sure if you’re asking a question or just proposing an idea for us to think about…but I’ll keep the conversation going.

I think you make a good point. I think that pro-life men should evangelize a more responsible and Christian view of love and sex.

If men are held more accountable for proliferating a culture that values pleasure separate from commitment, it’s no wonder that abortion is so rampant! If men are able to just walk away from a sexual encounter, of course women are going to fight for that same ability! I don’t blame them, but I am sad for them, because it’s all our (men’s) fault 😊

So pro-life men need to attack the culture, not specifically of abortion (though I think they can do that, too), but I think we have more authority speaking about the damage of reckless sex.
Click to expand...
Check out That Man is You, it is a men’s group program which speaks very much to what you’re talking about (which I happen to agree with 100%).

One thing I’ve taken from TMIY is that the contemporary push for contraception, abortion, attacks against pregnancy/procreation, etc in the modern era all stem from Marxism (primarily). In this ideology men are seen as superior to females because of the female “deficiency” they possess in their ability to reproduce. Eliminate this “deficiency” and females can have a more level playing field to compete with men in contributing to the greater society. The ideology of feminism has its roots in Marxism and it is not so much about empowering women as it is about removing their “deficiency” that makes them less then males. Consider the explosion of radical feminism that coincided with the sexual revolution of the 60’s - it was all about allowing women to alleviate themselves of pregnancy and become contributing members of society outside of their traditional female roles.

After seeing how they have been used as sexual objects by men for decades, secular women aren’t seeking to empower themselves by standing against sexual immorality but rather seek to escape the consequences and responsibilities of the sexual acts. See Sandra Fluke… sex to many seems more like a hedonistic exercise in avoiding pregnancy and disease. Brave New World indeed 😦
 
Stephen_says said:
Um…I’m not sure if you’re asking a question or just proposing an idea for us to think about…
Click to expand...
Both I guess…

I am asking a question:
If you are a man, and you are Prolife, what does Prolife mean for you as a man?

I am proposing an idea that “PROLIFE has to include MEN in it”, even though I’m not sure what and how.
but I’ll keep the conversation going.
Click to expand...
Please do !
Glad to have you here 👍
I think you make a good point. I think that pro-life men should evangelize a more responsible and Christian view of love and sex.
Click to expand...
If men are held more accountable for proliferating a culture that values pleasure separate from commitment, it’s no wonder that abortion is so rampant! If men are able to just walk away from a sexual encounter, of course women are going to fight for that same ability! I don’t blame them, but I am sad for them, because it’s all our (men’s) fault 😊
Click to expand...
So pro-life men need to attack the culture, not specifically of abortion (though I think they can do that, too), but I think we have more authority speaking about the damage of reckless sex.
Click to expand...
If a man speak against a permissive culture, does it mean he’s being prolife?

Many women speak against the permissive culture but they’re not necessarily being prolife.
 
petra22 said:
The sexual revolution does seem unfair to women…and–especially to the children!
Click to expand...
Exactly
Mary_Gail_36 said:
If you really think about it, all the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding sexuality are because human life is priceless.

Premarital sex is immoral, it can lead to the conception of a human. That new little human does not have the benefit of being born to a father and mother in a stable, loving relationship.
Click to expand...
Premarital sex is a fact of life now.
 
If we evangilize about Pro-life to men, what will the content of this evangelization?

In case of abortion, is a man as guilty of murder as his woman?

Or the guilt is solely belongs to the woman because she owns her body?
 
Kenny_Kamel said:
Check out That Man is You, it is a men’s group program which speaks very much to what you’re talking about (which I happen to agree with 100%).

One thing I’ve taken from TMIY is that the contemporary push for contraception, abortion, attacks against pregnancy/procreation, etc in the modern era all stem from Marxism (primarily). In this ideology men are seen as superior to females because of the female “deficiency” they possess in their ability to reproduce. Eliminate this “deficiency” and females can have a more level playing field to compete with men in contributing to the greater society. The ideology of feminism has its roots in Marxism and it is not so much about empowering women as it is about removing their “deficiency” that makes them less then males. Consider the explosion of radical feminism that coincided with the sexual revolution of the 60’s - it was all about allowing women to alleviate themselves of pregnancy and become contributing members of society outside of their traditional female roles.

After seeing how they have been used as sexual objects by men for decades, secular women aren’t seeking to empower themselves by standing against sexual immorality but rather seek to escape the consequences and responsibilities of the sexual acts. See Sandra Fluke… sex to many seems more like a hedonistic exercise in avoiding pregnancy and disease. Brave New World indeed 😦
Click to expand...
I do not know if feminism rooted in marxism as you put it.

Being man’s equal friend is God’s call for woman.

Question is how do we alleviate woman to equality with man as God created them to be, in the case of Prolife.
 
I know that premarital sex is wrong. I am not condoning this. But this thread is about “if pregnancy already happens”, what Pro-life means for the man in the picture, if he even in the picture at all…
 
francisca said:
I know that premarital sex is wrong. I am not condoning this. But this thread is about “if pregnancy already happens”, what Pro-life means for the man in the picture, if he even in the picture at all…
Click to expand...
I think it means that he should be enough of a man to assert his fatherhood. The devil always attacks marriage, family, and sexuality. Abortion is an assault on the foundation of all three. If the man is not in the picture someone should inform him of his need to take responsibility for the result and consequence of the actions he has committed to. From a biological perspective every male has an intrinsic desire to procreate and establish a line of offspring, to condone or be apathetic towards this aspect of manhood is ultimately rejecting what you were created to be and do.

Like I eluded to in my previous post, the same is true for females who reject the singular distinction that separates them from males - sexuality and the ability to bear children.
 
I agree that the devil attacks marriage, family, sexuality.
Biologically, both male and female has intrinsic desire to procreate and establish a line of offspring.

if a man engage in extra-marital sex, can we conclude that he is pro-choice simply because of what he does, and regardless what he say? Can we conclude this way, or is it too far fetch conclusion?

If this is true then most men are pro-choice.

Most men, I think, they do not think that what they do is wrong.
The culture it self push the agenda of pro-choice, and therefore it is very unfair to enforce Pro-life to one gender only.
 
If a man refuses his responsibility as the father, and the woman abort the pregnancy, then
does this means he is culpable of that abortion just as much as the woman?

If yes, why?

if no, why?
 
Pro-life is every bit as intricately connected to men as it is for women. If you look very specifically at the area of abortion, it might seem like a responsibility that hangs on the necks of women, but human sexuality in the Catholic Church is extremely expansive. It covers all aspects of human family & relations. We don’t fight for just “an issue” but rather we fight for an entire culture or an entire way of life… a “culture of life”. If you find yourself hanging onto one issue - even an issue as gravely important as the infinitely valuable lives of the unborn - then you’re not getting the full breadth of holy sexuality as it is taught in the Church.

Areas which are of particular interest to the man are:
  • Pornography (the objectification of the beauty of the female body)
  • Masturbation (self-love, and connected to masturbation)
  • Sacrificial love (viewing marriage to a woman as “giving your life to her”, not as an accessory or something that eventually happens when you get older)
  • Fatherhood (a key note to this is the extraordinary amount of money that men are getting gutted from their paychecks to pay for child support, because they had a kid but lacked the maturity, sacrificial love, and discipline to be a full-time father)
I think an area of particular concern for men is how susceptible they are to pornography, masturbation, and simply not giving themselves wholly to one woman. They become entrapped in the gravitational pull of sex & self-pleasure, the same way that a drug addict is enslaved by a drug.

Abortion indirectly relates to men because very few abortions happen between people in wedlock. It’s the teenage/young adult males and females that are having to do it. The more holy men you have, the less abortions you’re going to have.

All aspects of holy sexuality are connected to one another. Where there is pornography, abortion will be prone to follow. Where there is fornication, divorce is prone to follow. Where there are selfish fathers or women murdering their own infants, there will be all sorts of other evils: rape, sexual slavery, loneliness, homosexual offenders, unholy fetishes, one night stands, shattered families, shattered children, shattered hopes, shattered joys, shattered dreams. There is no such thing as a moral issue which exists in a vacuum. They all affect one another.

Pro-life for a man, or a rather, “a man of life”, is a man that:

-Views placing his wife before himself as a privilege, not a burden.
-Loves being a father
-Aggressively fights against temptations from the devil to gratify himself
-If a priest, religious, or single man, then a man that defends and safeguards all of the above ideals in his own capacity in life.
 
TK421 said:
Pro-life is every bit as intricately connected to men as it is for women. If you look very specifically at the area of abortion, it might seem like a responsibility that hangs on the necks of women, but human sexuality in the Catholic Church is extremely expansive. It covers all aspects of human family & relations. We don’t fight for just “an issue” but rather we fight for an entire culture or an entire way of life… a “culture of life”.
Click to expand...
Abortion do hang on the necks of women. There isn’t any one men has to go through abortion.
Keeping the fetus also hang on the neck of women.

I do agree that we need to explore more wholesome approach.
If you find yourself hanging onto one issue - even an issue as gravely important as the infinitely valuable lives of the unborn - then you’re not getting the full breadth of holy sexuality as it is taught in the Church.
Click to expand...
Which is exactly why I started this thread.
Hanging Pro-life teaching only on the neck of one gender, is-- as you put it-- hanging yourself onto one issue only.
Areas which are of particular interest to the man are:
Click to expand...
  • Pornography (the objectification of the beauty of the female body)
  • Masturbation (self-love, and connected to masturbation)
  • Sacrificial love (viewing marriage to a woman as “giving your life to her”, not as an accessory or something that eventually happens when you get older)
  • Fatherhood (a key note to this is the extraordinary amount of money that men are getting gutted from their paychecks to pay for child support, because they had a kid but lacked the maturity, sacrificial love, and discipline to be a full-time father)
Click to expand...
I think an area of particular concern for men is how susceptible they are to pornography, masturbation, and simply not giving themselves wholly to one woman. They become entrapped in the gravitational pull of sex & self-pleasure, the same way that a drug addict is enslaved by a drug.
Click to expand...
Abortion indirectly relates to men because very few abortions happen between people in wedlock. It’s the teenage/young adult males and females that are having to do it. The more holy men you have, the less abortions you’re going to have.
Click to expand...
All aspects of holy sexuality are connected to one another. Where there is pornography, abortion will be prone to follow. Where there is fornication, divorce is prone to follow. Where there are selfish fathers or women murdering their own infants, there will be all sorts of other evils: rape, sexual slavery, loneliness, homosexual offenders, unholy fetishes, one night stands, shattered families, shattered children, shattered hopes, shattered joys, shattered dreams. There is no such thing as a moral issue which exists in a vacuum. They all affect one another.
Click to expand...
Pro-life for a man, or a rather, “a man of life”, is a man that:
Click to expand...
-Views placing his wife before himself as a privilege, not a burden.
-Loves being a father
-Aggressively fights against temptations from the devil to gratify himself
-If a priest, religious, or single man, then a man that defends and safeguards all of the above ideals in his own capacity in life.
Click to expand...
Can we then expand Pro-life teaching to:

“if you watch porn, Sir, you are not Pro-life !!!” ?
 
What is the official church teaching about this matter:
What is a man culpable of in case his woman abort the fetus?

Has any definitive teaching been formulated yet?
 
By logic alone it seems easy to conclude that

if a woman refuse to become the mother of the fetus therefore abortion, then she is a murderer

with the same logic

if a man refuse to become the father of the fetus and his woman abort the pregnancy, then he is a murderer too

the refutation of this is actually “woman own her body” therefore she is the only one culpable? Do we agree with this? This is actually pro-choice argument. What the church saying about this?

There is also expansion of argument saying that a man’s pro-life is being responsible, therefore condom. How do we refute this opinion?
 
francisca said:
Can we then expand Pro-life teaching to:

“if you watch porn, Sir, you are not Pro-life !!!”?
Click to expand...
If you watch porn, then yes, you are against the Culture of Life that is advocated by the Catholic Church. The Theology of the Body includes:
  • That the human body is the visible expression of the person.
  • That a person is infinite in value
  • That persons are to be - as the Psalmist writes - gods and goddesses: they are immortal, rational, free will beings
Frothing over a woman/man on a computer screen or TV because of the sexual value they offer you is reducing that person’s personhood into something that is infinitely less than what they are. And, if we connect this to abortion, it unquestionably has something to do with it. The less and less people respect the value of the human body, the less they’re going to value life in general. An infant becomes a burden, not an immortal being which you have the immeasurable joy of nurturing and raising.

Like I said, all sexual ethics are connected to one another. If you abandon even one teaching, all other teachings will be weakened as a result, because all of the Catholic teachings on sexual ethics tie back to the above three bullets.

As to the question of how culpable men are in the act of abortion, bear in mind that Christ reminded us in the Gospel that we are judged by the disposition of our heart, not merely by our external deeds. If the man approves of the abortion, then he has committed murder in his heart. He doesn’t need to be the one carrying the person around in his body, or the doctor that is swinging the axe (so to speak), in order to be a murderer in spirit.

Think of it this way: how many women abort their own child? In a developed country, it is very, very few. They just go to a clinic with their debit card. They aren’t the ones physically killing their child, so does that mean they aren’t guilty of murder according to Heaven’s Court? It is the approval that makes them a murderer. In this respect, the man and the woman are the same. They aren’t the ones killing the child with their own two hands, but that doesn’t make them guiltless.
 
Jesus said “if a man look at a woman and want her, he has commited adultery in his heart”
Porn gets a man look at many many women, and even more than only looking. It is a training to commit real adultery, really. How do we expect a man to be faithful if he trains himself to commit adultery in his heart (at least).

Porn exploits young/ inexperienced/ desperate women (and children) for profit. Those who watch them agree to cut covenant with the porn-spirit: “It’s alright for me to exploit others for my own pleasure”. The spirit of porn enslaves people and is a very violent spirit, actually. We are paying this spirit with many murders of unborn fetus, lives of young women and children, many broken hearts and marriages, corrupted minds of young people robbing them of their innocent mind&heart, and degenerated sexual behavior among men and women that departs further and further from satisfying meaningful good sex.

Teen/ young men/ women become more and more apathetic regarding sexual&human values.
The bible say that we are “children of God”, but some people address themselves with the opposite names. They devalue themselves and women.

If a man look down on women, he look down on his own essence as a person because he is born of a woman. If both man and woman look down on sexual activity, they look down on themselves because the existance of humanity comes from sexual activity.

Porn disconnects our thoughts/ understanding about womanhood between “mothers who give birth to all peoople” and “women, as objects of entertaintment”. Between “family building” and “sex, as selfish entertaintment” have no connection. Many men think this way: so long they provide for the family, they consider themselves as “faithful men”.

I agree that The Church teaching about sex, marriage, family, and value of human life are conneted to each other. We as believers need to accept/ see it as a wholesome teaching, otherwise fragmented logic misleads.

The contrast between the church teaching and the world who not necessarily believe in her teaching is the problem.

And yes, a murderer is not necessarily “hands-on” the execution. Example Hitler, he didn’t gas people with his own hands. I think this logic is accepted even among non-believers such as criminal courts, medical code ethics, etc.
 
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