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Tom317
Guest
Again, we disagree. I see lots of evidence, you do not. That is the fun of discussing Revelation, I have never heard two people hold the same view.
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spauline
Guest
Perhaps his intent was to deal with strictly with the issues of his own day. But may I remind you that there is doctrinal development. The authors of the Old Testament in the literal sense were, admittedly, usually dealing with things in their own time. But later meanings are brought to light in the New Covenant.
Similarly, perhaps John, in the literal sense, only intended to address what the Early Church was going through then. But there is doctrinal development in the RCC. Deeper implications can be realized as Church history progresses. Hence, it is not excluded nor condemned by the Church that further layers of meaning exist in the apocalyptic data that prefigure SPIRITUAL (not temporal) developments in the history of the Church, and that as more history unfolds, the Church comes to acquire deeper insights into more layers that God intended the Church to discover later. And I am not talking about pulling stuff out of their butt. I am talking about how other Catholic doctrines and traditions shed ever deeper light into the text as the Church grows deeper into understanding the implications of what the Apostles left with us.
And finally, I would say the issue of the “mystery of iniquity” which is both in Scripture and the CCC implies what I am saying, and you have never addressed this.
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Atemi
Guest
Too bad the city of “Babylon” is destroyed immediately before the return of Christ in the book.
Also, the city of Rome has never yet been destroyed…never to be repopulated again.
You may need to rethink your chronology. You are missing the blessing of the book that is clear about things to come.
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spauline
Guest
I don’t believe it has anything to do with temporal history either. Are you implying that that is what I mean? I agree that Fundies who think it “prophesies” Russia blowing up China or any of that **** is absurd.
But it’s quite another thing to say that it has nothing to do with further spiritual developments (or digresssions) in later Church history.
Secondly, it is as if you would like to lump together ANY spiritual attacks on the Church as all the same in degree and type. It is not true that there are only two types of people, Catholics and non-Catholics. For non-Catholics can be of different persuasions. Just because somebody is not Catholic doesn’t automatically make them a child of the devil. for the innocent Muslim, Orthodox and Protestant can all attain salvation despite that they are not Catholic, although the ways and degrees in which they are separated from the fullness of truth and grace vary. But a relativistic hedonist is a full child of the devil. Hence, if you want to say “The opposition of the Protestant Revolt isn’t any different from the hedonistic relativists of today”, I beg to differ. Material heretics can attain salvation, despite their objective PARTIAL opposition to the Church. But a relativistic hedonist is UTTERLY depraved, and salvation is not possible for them if they remain in it.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I point out that the book, dealing with the events of John’s time, is also timeless. That’s its value.
Well, it is a mystery!!
You don’t want me to get in trouble for spilling the beans, do you?
I point out that John does address the aspect that he is concerned with – the persecution – by painting it as a war of those who don’t believe – especially the Imperial Government – against those who do. This is a uniquely Christian aspect – Jewish tradition would paint the persecution as punishment for sin.
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spauline
Guest
well, yeah, but it WILL be known by the Church toward the end. and hence remaining in preterism and idealism alone cannot solve it. hence the necessity of spiritual historicism.Well, it is a mystery!!
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Read what you just wrote.
There is a big difference between “will be known” and “is known.”
All will be known in the fullness of time, but we cannot know the future – that is the temporal future – through Revelation.
If Revelation were a prophesy of the temporal future, we would know what is going to happen on this earth, in real future time. We don’t.
The difference is like our general experience with storms versus a prediction by the National Weather Service. No one would call me a prophet for saying that a hurricane will hit the Gulf Coast someday. But when and where and how strong, I don’t know.
On the other hand, when the National Weather Service begins showing the track of a Category 5 headed straight for you, you better start taking precautions.
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maryj
Guest
On Christmas day 1991, the communist flag came down from the kremlin tower. seventy years of relentless persecution of Christians ended. In april of that year at St. Yuri’s cathedral in Lvov, Ukraine fellow catholics sang praise to Christ with unrestrained joy. After decades of oppression, they were free to practice their faith openly. Jesus had cared about them, their faith was not in vain. THAT is what the book of Revelation is about.Faith Under Fire. John wrote his book of Revelation to a Christianity that was barely seventy years old when it faced the beginning of several centuries of persecution. Nero had just paraded through the Roman Forum.Torches coated with tar and resin lighted his path. The “torches” were the bodies of Christians. During a summer festival in the Rhone valley in france, the government sponsored a riot against Christians falsely accused of incest and cannabalism. A mob beat and tortured dozens of Christians. They applied hot plates to the body of Sanctus of Vienne until he was a vast bruise. They beheaded others. They forced many to run through a gantlet of whips to the local arena where they were mauled by wild animals in full view of a frienzied crowd.
the Roman state deprived openly practicing Christians of educations, jobs, and property. The systematic hostility of the greatest power on earth frightened and disheartened many early Christians. If they witnessed their faith, their children and families were endangered. Did God care about them? Did Jesus know what was happening? Why didn’t Jesus do something about it? Did Jesus care?
John’s answer was “YES” That is what the book of Revelation is all about. Jesus was concerned about the pain and confusion of those first Christians, just as in our own time Jesus cared about the millions of Christians who suffered in Eastern Europe and still do in other places in the world. there has always been a persecuted church in one form or another. In our day, we know about the political persecution of Christians in the East. We are also aware of the cultural opposition to Christian Catholic teaching in the west. We seem outmanuevered and helpless and think God does not care. Read the Book of Revelation and hear His divine word: I CARE. John makes this abundantly clear in chapter one. Revelation: A message of reassurance and divine concern for the threatened Christian communities. john instructed the leaders of the communities to read this message out loud at their liturgical gatherings. He “blessed” those who would read the revelation and those who heard them with"FAITH and RESOLVE to PERSEVERE because of them.
the Roman state deprived openly practicing Christians of educations, jobs, and property. The systematic hostility of the greatest power on earth frightened and disheartened many early Christians. If they witnessed their faith, their children and families were endangered. Did God care about them? Did Jesus know what was happening? Why didn’t Jesus do something about it? Did Jesus care?
John’s answer was “YES” That is what the book of Revelation is all about. Jesus was concerned about the pain and confusion of those first Christians, just as in our own time Jesus cared about the millions of Christians who suffered in Eastern Europe and still do in other places in the world. there has always been a persecuted church in one form or another. In our day, we know about the political persecution of Christians in the East. We are also aware of the cultural opposition to Christian Catholic teaching in the west. We seem outmanuevered and helpless and think God does not care. Read the Book of Revelation and hear His divine word: I CARE. John makes this abundantly clear in chapter one. Revelation: A message of reassurance and divine concern for the threatened Christian communities. john instructed the leaders of the communities to read this message out loud at their liturgical gatherings. He “blessed” those who would read the revelation and those who heard them with"FAITH and RESOLVE to PERSEVERE because of them.
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spauline
Guest
I agree with everything you say *except *if you insist that nothing beyond this will ever by known. The data of Scripture and Tradition must, at a bare minimum, provide information that includes but also surpasses mere idealism. Because if all that will ever be known is mere idealism, it would impossible for the Church to know when the final apostasy will be upon humanity. Put it this way: here are some possibilities that could exist, for example.
I. the modern reign of secular messianism will not be healed to any significant extent and so is the beginning of the great apostasy, in which case we that the Gospel will never be restored again,
II. the Gospel could be restored through, perhaps a chastisement, and following will be a great era of spiritual prosperity, and after an indefinite period of that, the world will apostatize incurable, at which time the world will end.
III. the world could revert to the Gospel and fall into apostasy 12 times, and then in the 13th time of apostasy, that will be the very end.
IV. the world could fall away and come back 100 times, and in number 101, it is the final apostasy.
but if the data of public revelation gives only MERE idealism to the Church, how will the Church know that in the, say, in the 17th apostasy, it is the very end, if 17 is the number?
Now, I never said the current age is the last primary manifestation of sin in human history (actually, I think it is the second to last, in personal opinion for many reasons based both on public and private revelation), but, again, if mere idealism is all there is to know, how specifically will the Church know when the final manifestation of sin is present? Which would also imply they understand WHY it is, and not just simply THAT it is?
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Odell
Guest
If you want to understand the book of Revelation GO TO MASS.
We “lift up our hearts” to heaven and are, in a real sense, “caught up in spirit” and taken into a liturgy that’s always going on in heaven (see Revelation 4:2).
That’s what was revealed to the Apostle John in the Bible’s last book. In fact, it’s the Mass that makes sense of the puzzling, and often frightening visions and symbols of Revelation.
What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.
John’s vision begins on “the Lord’s day,” Sunday (see Revelation 1:10) - the name the first Christians gave to the first day of the week, upon which they celebrated “the breaking of the bread” (see Acts 20:7; Luke 24:1).
John is “caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day.” In other words, possibly while celebrating the Eucharist himself, John is taken to heaven.
And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass.
He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).
He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia” (19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).
There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb” (19:9).
With the Angels and Saints
John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.
When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.
This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.
At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).
The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).
The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.
This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).
The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem.
In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.
And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)
What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.
And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.
Again the key to understanding revelation is the mass.
if you have the time listen to this and tell me what you think.
www.salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm
and scroll down to
The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse
also all this from the same website. This is a bible study on the subject. I deffenently recomend reading Scott Hanns book the Lambs supper.
www.salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/begcourse2_home.cfm
We “lift up our hearts” to heaven and are, in a real sense, “caught up in spirit” and taken into a liturgy that’s always going on in heaven (see Revelation 4:2).
That’s what was revealed to the Apostle John in the Bible’s last book. In fact, it’s the Mass that makes sense of the puzzling, and often frightening visions and symbols of Revelation.
What’s revealed to John is that the Mass we celebrate on earth is a participation in the liturgy of heaven.
John’s vision begins on “the Lord’s day,” Sunday (see Revelation 1:10) - the name the first Christians gave to the first day of the week, upon which they celebrated “the breaking of the bread” (see Acts 20:7; Luke 24:1).
John is “caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day.” In other words, possibly while celebrating the Eucharist himself, John is taken to heaven.
And John sees the same things we see when we come to Mass.
He sees an altar (see Revelation 8:3); candles (1:12); incense (5:8); priests dressed in robes (4:4). And he sees bread or manna (2:17), and bowls or chalices of blood (see Revelation 16).
He sees heavenly worshippers – angels and saints – crying, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (4:8), singing a hymn to the glory of God, the heavenly king (15:3) and shouting “alleluia” (19:1,3,6) and making the sing of the cross on their foreheads (14:1).
There are readings from Scripture (Revelation 2-3), and, finally, the “wedding feast of the Lamb” (19:9).
With the Angels and Saints
John is invited to “come up here” (see Revelation 4:1). And we are invited to come up to heaven, as well – to lift up our hearts - at the beginning of our Liturgy of the Eucharist.
When we lift up our hearts, we are asked to sing with the angels and saints.
This is not simply a fine expression of sentiment. As with everything else in the Mass, there is a “sacramental realism” at work here.
At this point in the Mass, we are in a mysterious way joining our song to the song that John – and the prophet Isaiah before him – heard in heaven: “Holy, holy, holy . . .” (see Revelation 4:8; Isaiah 6:3).
The second part of our song ("Blessed is he . . . ") is taken from the Psalm that pilgrims to Jerusalem would sing at Passover. It was also the psalm that was sung upon Christ’s triumphal entry to Jerusalem (see Mark 11:10; Psalm 118:26).
The biblical words give us clues to what’s going on in the Mass. We have gathered around the altar – not only an earthly altar, but a heavenly altar as well. We have made our way to Mount Zion, the new and heavenly Jerusalem.
This is what John saw – “the Lamb standing on Mount Zion” (see Revelation 14:1).
The Letter to the Hebrews (see Hebrews 12:22-24) likewise speaks of the Eucharistic celebration on earth as entrance into and participation in the heavenly liturgy in the new Jerusalem.
In the Mass, says Hebrews, we approach “Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.” There, we join “countless angels” and “the assembly of the firstborn” and Jesus, “mediator of the new covenant and the sprinkled blood” in a “festal gathering” or feast.
And notice the similarities between Hebrews’ description of the Mass and John’s Revelation. Both see a new Jerusalem, a new Zion, the dwelling place of the Lord (see Psalm 132:13-14). Both see angels and Jesus, the Lamb whose blood takes away the sin of the world. And both see a “feast” and a gathering of “firstborn” or “firstfruits” of those who believe in Jesus (see Revelation 14:4). And both see in this feast in the temple of heaven a sign of the new covenant wrought in the blood of Jesus (see Revelation 11:19)
What these Scriptures show us is that the Mass is the summit of salvation history told in Scripture.
And this is the same thing that the prayers of the Mass tell us.
Again the key to understanding revelation is the mass.
if you have the time listen to this and tell me what you think.
www.salvationhistory.com/bookstore/audioRsrcs.cfm
and scroll down to
The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse
also all this from the same website. This is a bible study on the subject. I deffenently recomend reading Scott Hanns book the Lambs supper.
www.salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/begcourse2_home.cfm
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spauline
Guest
I don’t deny any of this. Of course it’s about the Mass! Amen! But there is also how the Mass and the whole Catholic faith and truths of God are applied to human history! Yes, the Mass is the key, but it’s MORE than just idealism about the Mass! It also applies the Mass and the whole of our Catholic Faith to the age of the Church. Case in point: the Mass is the ultimate sacrifice, the pinnacle of the sacramental life. Yes, amen! and yet it stands in the context of the whole seven sacraments. and Christian disunity, which I have repeatedly reminded persons was and is a major influence on the Church’s mission of Redemption, is instrincally wounded in sacramental life. And this has barin g on the Mass and the Churh’s relationship to the world. Protestants don’t have the Mass. They only have Baptism and Marriage. They have two of seven sacraments. The Lamb has seven horns, the False Prophet has “two”, like a Lamb. Tertullian says the devil plagiarizes the Sacraments: for more, read this and this:
Five Loaves, two fish, and The True Logos, the False Logos.
I say amen to the Mass! I’m not at all contesting that. But there is the reality that doctrinal and grace deficiencies leave their mark upon the history of the Church, which is the very vehicle for the sanctification of humanity. It is through the Church that Christ completes his Redemptive action. hence, what I am saying is, fundies think the book only applies to the very end of the world, and liberals think it applies only to the very beginning of Church history. But what about this big gap of Church history between the first and last centuries? Is that to be left to UTTER obscurity? For the redemption of God will only go so far before there will be nothing that God can do to restore the general whole of humanity. And we are in a crisis, that, as I’ve said, is severe. Asking questions of what lies ahead, not in TEMPORAL terms, but in terms of spiritual ages is legitimate, and very few Catholics even seem interested in asking these questions. Will the Gospel be restored in the 1st and 2nd world nations? Which is of course inseparable from “will Christians and other partially separated religious groups ever be reconciled to any signifcant extent with the Church”?
I’m not contesting ANY of the levels put forth in this thread. I’m saying there is most likely OTHER deeper layers than this, layers that explore the reasons and meaning behind what will be the bigger subages of Church history, not “when” they occur or how long they will last literalistically. But, I don’t know, it is as if people cannot grasp really what I’m getting at, and I think it is the fundie stigma. Under this stigma, ANY interpretation other than preterism or idealism is seen as “Russia will destroy China and Jesus will return in 2485 AD”. But that it not what I’m talking about. I guess ,like I said, you people have been impacted by the fundie stigma. For some reason, you are misunderstanding what I’m getting at.
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Tom317
Guest
I believe the book to be a narrative history of the Church, so in a certain way we are not that far apart in our views.
I think the Mass can be seen symbolically in book, yet imo that is not its purpose. I believe the purpose is to prepare the faithful for challenging events during the course of time until Christ returns.
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Tom317
Guest
I think the Mass can be seen symbolically, but that the Mass is not the main purpose of the book of Revelation.
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Odell
Guest
I dont know I think that the Apocalypse is the Mass At least that is what I get out of reading the Lambs Supper by Scoot Hann.
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maryj
Guest
I’m a little confused. could you point me to where it tells us the church will know when the end is?
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Tom317
Guest
I think the Mass can be seen in a great deal of Scripture, yet imo Revelation is a narrative history of the Church. It is similar to the woman clothed with the sun, she can be seen symbolically as Mary, yet I believe the literal interpreatation is the woman represents the Church.
There are many senses to Scripture, so Scott Hahn’s interpretation can be seen as correct on a symbolic level, yet I do not think he is correct suing the literal sense.
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spauline
Guest
CCC:
2 Thess. 2: (Douay Rheims Translation and Footnotes)
I can’t see how this can be any clearer: the mystery of iniquity will be “unveiled”, the man of sin shall be “revealed”. Hence, the Church will recognize, in some sense, when the final manifestation of sin is present in human history. *
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spauline
Guest
again, this does not mean “knowing the day or the hour”, but that the Church will discern that humanity is in an incurable (for the most part) state of rebellion when that final age of sin arises. They will then say, “The end is upon us”, meaning, the Second Coming will then be “immiment” literally, without of course, knowing the literal day or the hour.
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spauline
Guest
I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. There is a difference between a fundie who would say, “The minor chastisement will start in 2053 AD and here is a political outline of how all the individual nations will wage war against one another”, versus the Church discerning at some point: “We have seen the successive SPIRITUAL ages of the Church, and we now discern that the final age of sin is present (when that age is present).” For example, it is possible for a person who doesn’t know all the details to nevertheless know the GREAT ages of the OT history from the Fall all the way to Christ. It would not be necessary to know the exact years and duration of these ages, but just an understanding of what was going on spiritually, and that this process is understood through spiritual psychology.Read what you just wrote.
There is a big difference between “will be known” and “is known.”
All will be known in the fullness of time, but we cannot know the future – that is the temporal future – through Revelation.
If Revelation were a prophesy of the temporal future, we would know what is going to happen on this earth, in real future time. We don’t.
The difference is like our general experience with storms versus a prediction by the National Weather Service. No one would call me a prophet for saying that a hurricane will hit the Gulf Coast someday. But when and where and how strong, I don’t know.
On the other hand, when the National Weather Service begins showing the track of a Category 5 headed straight for you, you better start taking precautions.
That’s what I’m saying about the NT data: that, most likely, when the final age of sin is present in human history (whenever that will be), the Church will look back in hindsight and see the bigger picture that preceded them (Pagan Resistance to Conversion, Christianity’s first triumph over paganism, Catholic Christendom of the Middle Ages, The Protestant Rev, the Enlightenment, the Modern Minor Apostasy, the Minor Chas, the glorious reunion of Christians and restoration of faith, the Great Apostasy) and discern how Scripture and Tradition prefigured these ages through doctrinal development, and then subsequently recognize that the final apostasy is then present.
In other words, if the OT can be summarized by spiritual SUBages, that’s what I’m saying may be veiled in the whole Public Deposit of Scripture and Tradition for the NT era, and that the Church will eventually come to understand these, hence giving it the “fullness of understanding” of the psychology of God’s Plan.
I’m not saying I know for certain, like I’m some sort of “prophet”
rolleyes: ), I’m saying, can’t even an educated lay person at least mediatate on these questions? For if nobody in the Church ever looks into the issue, how will it ever be known. Again, I don’t know anything for sure. But I am interested, not in knowing “the future” for the sake of knowing the “future”, but UNDERSTANDING the Divine Plan, the psychology and meaning and reasons behind it, not stupid temporal details, but the successive spiritual developments that reveal something of the Mystery of God.
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Tom317
Guest
Yes, and perhaps to help save some souls if we can read the signs.I’m not sure you understand what I’m saying. There is a difference between a fundie who would say, “The minor chastisement will start in 2053 AD and here is a political outline of how all the individual nations will wage war against one another”, versus the Church discerning at some point: “We have seen the successive SPIRITUAL ages of the Church, and we now discern that the final age of sin is present (when that age is present).” For example, it is possible for a person who doesn’t know all the details to nevertheless know the GREAT ages of the OT history from the Fall all the way to Christ. It would not be necessary to know the exact years and duration of these ages, but just an understanding of what was going on spiritually, and that this process is understood through spiritual psychology.
That’s what I’m saying about the NT data: that, most likely, when the final age of sin is present in human history (whenever that will be), the Church will look back in hindsight and see the bigger picture that preceded them (Pagan Resistance to Conversion, Christianity’s first triumph over paganism, Catholic Christendom of the Middle Ages, The Protestant Rev, the Enlightenment, the Modern Minor Apostasy, the Minor Chas, the glorious reunion of Christians and restoration of faith, the Great Apostasy) and discern how Scripture and Tradition prefigured these ages through doctrinal development, and then subsequently recognize that the final apostasy is then present.
In other words, if the OT can be summarized by spiritual SUBages, that’s what I’m saying may be veiled in the whole Public Deposit of Scripture and Tradition for the NT era, and that the Church will eventually come to understand these, hence giving it the “fullness of understanding” of the psychology of God’s Plan.
I’m not saying I know for certain, like I’m some sort of “prophet”
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