What Does Revelations Say?

[Montie_Claunch]

I have noticed that a nice portion of protestants like to use Revelation (and SDA couple it with Daniel) to “show” that the Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ, Whore of Babylon, and all that stuff. We keep saying no that is not what that means, we are not but, the accusations don’t seem to subside. I thought that it might be a good idea that we should actually try to fill the viod and show them what it does mean. I, myself, don’t know a thing of what Revelation means. I, embarreshingly so, avoid that book of the bible because I am just sure that I will not understand it and will come away with more confusion and less spiritual enlightlenment. Does anyone know of any good books that really indepth goes into the last book of the bible? Thanks and God bless.

 

[PhilVaz]

It is Revelation (singular) or the Apocalypse. Of course Jimmy Akin wrote some articles over 10 years ago in response to Dave Hunt’s stuff:

Hunting the Whore of Babylon

I’m sure the Carl Olson and David Currie books cover Revelation but I need to read them again. Big books! Your basic approaches to Revelation are preterist (most of it already happened) and futurist (most of it has yet to happen), and other views. The SdA’s can be called “historicists” while many fundamentalists are “futurists” (and dispensationalists).

A commentary on Daniel and Revelation by SdA Uriah Smith

Smith says: “‘Babylon’ is a term which embraces not only paganism and the Roman Catholic Church, but religious bodies which have withdrawn from that church, but bringing many of her errors and traditions with them.”

See this Wikipedia article on Revelation outlining the views

Phil P

 

[Bwavenit]

Montie
i recommend Scott Hahns bible study called “the end”
you can get it in different formats.

 

[amills]

Revelations was written at a time when Christians were being persecuted. It was written in apocolyptic liturature, which is to say that there was much symbolism in the writings. The Christians at the time clearly understood the symbolism.

The Catholic Church does not look at the book of Revelations in a futuristic light. The book was written to give hope to people in times of great persecution. It tells of the terrible things that were happening in the times but also gave them a message that in the final analysis it is the Christians who would win out. God is more powerful than any evil there is in the world.

The circumstances of Revelations were not only relevant to the Christians at that time but have become relevant over and over again in history and the book still gives hope to Christians when faced with very difficult circumstances. We have seen many “anti-christs” throughout history.

Again - it is not a futuristic book. It was relevant to early Christians and has been relevant throughout history. Someone once summarized the book of Revelations to me in this manner. " As Christians, we WIN!"

 

[amills]

Revelations was written at a time when Christians were being persecuted. It was written in apocolyptic liturature, which is to say that there was much symbolism in the writings. The Christians at the time clearly understood the symbolism.

The Catholic Church does not look at the book of Revelations in a futuristic light. The book was written to give hope to people in times of great persecution. It tells of the terrible things that were happening in the times but also gave them a message that in the final analysis it is the Christians who would win out. God is more powerful than any evil there is in the world.

The circumstances of Revelations were not only relevant to the Christians at that time but have become relevant over and over again in history and the book still gives hope to Christians when faced with very difficult circumstances. We have seen many “anti-christs” throughout history.

Again - it is not a futuristic book. It was relevant to early Christians and has been relevant throughout history. Someone once summarized the book of Revelations to me in this manner. " As Christians, we WIN!"

 

[Fidelis]

Does anyone know of any good books that really indepth goes into the last book of the bible? Thanks and God bless.

The David Currie book recommended above is the best I’ve seen yet. I’d also recommend the Navarre Bible Commentary on the Book of Revelation

The Navarre Bible Commentary On The Book of Revelation
amazon.com/gp/product/185…lance&n=283155

as well as the following resources:

Here’s a website with several articles from a Catholic perspective regarding this subject. The writer is Carl Olsen, the author of the best selling book “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?”

carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

I’d also recommend going to the Catholic Answers home page and putting “Whore Of Babylon,” “Rapture” or “Left Behind” into the “Search” feature. You’ll find several good articles there from reliable writers.

More resources:

“Introduction to Prophecy,” CD series by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart…&user=56193243
(HIGHLY recommended )

“The Rapture Trap,” by Paul Thigpen (study guide available)
amazon.com/gp/product/096…lance&n=283155

“The End: The Book of Revelation,” tape/CD series by Scott Hahn (study guide available)
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=169

The Rapture Files, by Tim Staples
The Rapture Revealed, by David Currie
(both available from St. Joseph’s Communications)
saintjoe.com/

Will You Be Left Behind?, by Carl Olsen
(Same link as above)

Catholics & The Rapture, by Patrick Madid
surprisedbytruth.com/store/shopexd.asp?id=52

“Will Catholics Be Left Behind?” by Carl Olsen
carl-olson.com/wcblb_home.html

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

While I do believe Revelations to be prophecy for end times and Daniel as well, I do not understand why people think that the CC is the Whore of Babylon. I am studying Daniel right now(Although I had to miss my bible study this am ) I understand that Babylon was a horrible place that was self-indulgent and our society today, I might add, is alot like the babylonian mentality. But, that does not make the CC the Whore of Babylon. I still dont know what that means. Except it is bad. As far as the Anti-Christ being the CC–I dont think so. Im not God so I dont know but I doubt it. I certainly would not say that anyway.

So here is a friendly protestant that does believe the CC to be the Whore of Babylon.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Hi,

While I do believe Revelations to be prophecy for end times and Daniel as well, I do not understand why people think that the CC is the Whore of Babylon. I am studying Daniel right now(Although I had to miss my bible study this am ) I understand that Babylon was a horrible place that was self-indulgent and our society today, I might add, is alot like the babylonian mentality. But, that **does not **make the CC the Whore of Babylon. I still dont know what that means. Except it is bad. As far as the Anti-Christ being the CC–I dont think so. Im not God so I dont know but I doubt it. I certainly would not say that anyway.

So here is a friendly protestant that does believe the CC to be the Whore of Babylon.

I noted that you used the word NOT in the text…but you seem to have left it out in your ending statement. I assuming that leaving it out was a “type-o”.

If I’m right! If your last statement was a “type-o” then I say: That’s always refreshing to read and see! God bless!

Although, there are some Non-Catholic that do feel that way, and they feel that way because that is what their church has taught them.

It’s sad I know…

Okay as far as books I’ve heard that Coming Soon: Unlocking The Book Of Revelation is good. I personaly have not have the chance to read it. So I can’t really say.

Then of course there are Catholic Answers tracts regarding all this. AllForHim you wil find a tract that explains way some Non-Catholic Christians say that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. Catholic Answer Tracts

Then is Scott’s Hahn and the “The Lamb’s Supper”. There was a program on EWTN called “The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse” You can Listen to the program here.

There was also a program on EWTN called “Revelation the Second Coming” You can Listen to the program here.

Hope this helps.
God Bless

 

[Mommyof02green]

I have either read or heard that the Harlot of Babylon is not the Catholic Church, but the city of Jerusalem.

I wanted to say that in my last post! However, I couldn’t remember where I read or heard that from. After posting, I started to re-listen to those audio I posted. Espeically the Scott Hahn one…trying to figure it out.

Then it hit me, I read it from one of the newsletters I get from BCS

The newletter is written by John Martignoni. Now in this newsletter he makes it clear that this his point of view. In his newsletter he states:

I am not saying my interpretation is THE correct interpretation…the Church has not, to my knowledge, defined exactly what these passages refer to, so I am free to interpret these passages within the overall parameters of Catholic teaching. So, again, I’m not saying that I am 100% right, all I’m saying is that what follows is my interpretation, to which I am entitled to by Protestant theology - in an absolute sense, and by Catholic theology - as long as it does not contradict Church teaching.

Here is the NEWSLETTER (click here)

God Bless.

 

[I_Leatherman]

I have noticed that a nice portion of protestants like to use Revelation (and SDA couple it with Daniel) to “show” that the Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ, Whore of Babylon, and all that stuff. We keep saying no that is not what that means, we are not but, the accusations don’t seem to subside. I thought that it might be a good idea that we should actually try to fill the viod and show them what it does mean. I, myself, don’t know a thing of what Revelation means. I, embarreshingly so, avoid that book of the bible because I am just sure that I will not understand it and will come away with more confusion and less spiritual enlightlenment. Does anyone know of any good books that really indepth goes into the last book of the bible? Thanks and God bless.

Is there a new and an old Jerusalem in that book. Was there something about an ancient thingimajig being the ‘Whore of Babylon’. Could it have been old Jerusalem who, needing the Divine Physician, instead turned its back at some point to the truth and made its dwelling instead - in this worldly world, Babylon. Would the ‘New Jerusalem which came down out of heaven from God’ be the Catholic Church which ‘came away from her’. Aimless thoughts, don’t remember much from Apocalypse.

 

[spauline]

Revelations was written at a time when Christians were being persecuted. It was written in apocolyptic liturature, which is to say that there was much symbolism in the writings. The Christians at the time clearly understood the symbolism.

The Catholic Church does not look at the book of Revelations in a futuristic light. The book was written to give hope to people in times of great persecution. It tells of the terrible things that were happening in the times but also gave them a message that in the final analysis it is the Christians who would win out. God is more powerful than any evil there is in the world.

The circumstances of Revelations were not only relevant to the Christians at that time but have become relevant over and over again in history and the book still gives hope to Christians when faced with very difficult circumstances. We have seen many “anti-christs” throughout history.

Again - it is not a futuristic book. It was relevant to early Christians and has been relevant throughout history. Someone once summarized the book of Revelations to me in this manner. " As Christians, we WIN!"

I don’t think your view is completely orthodox, amills. The book cannot be mere idealism, and nothing more. Granted, idealism as one LAYER of meaning is legit, but not exclusive of any other layers. For there will be a final manifestation of the fallen nature of man in history that will be practically incurable. And the Church will dogmatically recognize that condition prior to the very end through, as the CCC puts it “the revealing of the mystery of iniquity”. For if only mere idealism is all that Public Revelation will ever know, then how shall the Church recognize when the final age of sin is upon us? Hence, there must be something more specific, in a spiritual sense, to the whole salvation history, and specifically the Church age, than a mere “myriads of repeated ups and downs”.

 

[Church_Militant]

I have noticed that a nice portion of protestants like to use Revelation (and SDA couple it with Daniel) to “show” that the Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ, Whore of Babylon, and all that stuff. We keep saying no that is not what that means, we are not but, the accusations don’t seem to subside.

I thought that it might be a good idea that we should actually try to fill the viod and show them what it does mean. I, myself, don’t know a thing of what Revelation means. I, embarreshingly so, avoid that book of the bible because I am just sure that I will not understand it and will come away with more confusion and less spiritual enlightlenment. Does anyone know of any good books that really indepth goes into the last book of the bible? Thanks and God bless.Who cares if they subside or not? I’ve read Revelation several times and you get something more each time, but i have yet to fins one valid bit of substance to the propaganda from the SDA, Dave Hunt, or any of the other a-C propagandists out there.

Some like the SDA have predicted the date of Christ’s return and so I discount them pretty easily since the New Testament points out that that is wrong. The rest simply don’t hold up under any rational and unbiased scrutiny

Lemme ask you this Montie…have you read the entire Bible for yourself? I have many times and I have no problems with the Bible and the Catholic Church. I do,however, have problems with a great many of the n-C religions and the Bible, regardless of their hype that they are “Bible only Christians” (whatever that means for each particular sect…)

One of the very worst things that people try to tell you about Revelation is that it is all prophecy. That’s just not true and they mess up because they choose to believe that just because St. John saw something in a vision, that it is all prophetic and that it is for the future. If you read it, you see that that is simply not true. (Case in point: the fall of the dragon and his angels).

Your fear of any book of the Bible (except for Numbers…everybody fears that one. :bigyikes: ) does you no good. Man up and read the Word of God Bro!

 

[Atemi]

I have noticed that a nice portion of protestants like to use Revelation (and SDA couple it with Daniel) to “show” that the Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ, Whore of Babylon, and all that stuff. We keep saying no that is not what that means, we are not but, the accusations don’t seem to subside.

Yes, it is a theory.

There are also Protestant theories that America is the Whore, New York, corporations, false religion, etc…

Many Catholics have theories as well. I have heard Catholics refer to Protestantism as the Whore.

So no, Protestants have no monopoly on theories and identities.

I thought that it might be a good idea that we should actually try to fill the viod and show them what it does mean. I, myself, don’t know a thing of what Revelation means. I, embarreshingly so, avoid that book of the bible because I am just sure that I will not understand it and will come away with more confusion and less spiritual enlightlenment.

That is very sad to hear.

God promised a blessing to all those that would read that book.

Maybe if you weren’t so convinced you wouldn’t understand it, that would be a start.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I noted that you used the word NOT in the text…but you seem to have left it out in your ending statement. I assuming that leaving it out was a “type-o”.

If I’m right! If your last statement was a “type-o” then I say: That’s always refreshing to read and see! God bless!

Although, there are some Non-Catholic that do feel that way, and they feel that way because that is what their church has taught them.

It’s sad I know…

Okay as far as books I’ve heard that Coming Soon: Unlocking The Book Of Revelation is good. I personaly have not have the chance to read it. So I can’t really say.

Then of course there are Catholic Answers tracts regarding all this. AllForHim you wil find a tract that explains way some Non-Catholic Christians say that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. Catholic Answer Tracts

Then is Scott’s Hahn and the “The Lamb’s Supper”. There was a program on EWTN called “The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass and the Apocalypse” You can Listen to the program here.

There was also a program on EWTN called “Revelation the Second Coming” You can Listen to the program here.

Hope this helps.
God Bless

:bigyikes: :bigyikes: I just noticed your message now about my typo. I wrote this awhile ago too. IT WAS A TYPO:thumbsup:

 

[rwoehmke]

I seem to recall in Warren Carroll’s book “The Foundation of Christendom” that the name “Babylon” was applied to Rome and it would make sense to me that Jerusalem as a Roman Province at that time in history may very well be “The Whore of Babylon”. Babylon in present day Iraq had become a deserted ruin by 169 A.D. which I think was one of the prophecies in the Old Testament.

 

[Atemi]

I seem to recall in Warren Carroll’s book “The Foundation of Christendom” that the name “Babylon” was applied to Rome and it would make sense to me that Jerusalem as a Roman Province at that time in history may very well be “The Whore of Babylon”. Babylon in present day Iraq had become a deserted ruin by 169 A.D. which I think was one of the prophecies in the Old Testament.

Yes, the early fathers were almost unanimous that the Whore mentioned in Scripture was the city of Rome itself.

 

[Tom317]

I believe that Revelation is a narrative history of the Church. The whore of babylon stuff simply comes from people who do not want to accept the first-place status of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The general Catholic position is that prophesy is best understood as applying to the world in the prophet’s life, and that it’s value to us is in the universal and timeless message it contains. We do not subscribe to Millinarianism – that is, looking for prophesies under every rock and bush.

Revelation was written during Domitian’s Persecution – the second Imperian Persecution (the first, of course, being Nero’s Persecution.) The similarity between Nero and Domitian – both as persons and in their actions – is used by John over and over. The book can be seen as a polemic against the Roman Empire and the Emperor – which would make it seditious. That, alone would be sufficient to motivate John to write in obscure language understood only by his intended audience.

Personally, I think the book is John’s discharge of his duty as a Christian leader during the persecution. A prisoner on Patmos, he could only write – and so he did.

I think at the simplest level, John has four aims:

1. 
   *]To strengthen the Church for the ordeal
   *]To comfort those taken up and persecuted (and their families.)
   *]To discourage voluntary martyrdom (always a problem with early Christians.)
   *]To answer the most difficult question Christians face – “Why do bad things happen to good people?”
   
   To take the last first, John paints a war between the followers of Christ and the Roman Empire. We expect to suffer casualties in war. Our suffering is not a result of God abandoning us, or neglecting us, but rather of our role as soldiers in battle.
   
   By using this military analog, we see that our duty is not to surrender our lives, but to fight on. A soldier dies bravely if he must, but he does not give himself into the enemy’s hands.
   
   The most comforting message for the Church Militant is, “We have won!”
   
   And the seven letters to seven churches answer his first aim – “Strengthen and purify yourselves for the ordeal.”

 

[Atemi]

I believe that Revelation is a narrative history of the Church. The whore of babylon stuff simply comes from people who do not want to accept the first-place status of the Roman Catholic Church.

I wish I could agree that it was as simple as that…

 

[vern_humphrey]

I wish I could agree that it was as simple as that…

“Rome” in those days did not refer to the Church or the Papacy. The Church was tiny, in hiding, and under ferocious persecution. To be chosen Pope was not to be elevated to a position of power among men, but to receive a death sentence.

“Rome” meant the Roman Empire, and was personified by the Emperor.