What Does Revelations Say?

[vern_humphrey]

I think when you tossed a label when you wrote: That’s getting close to fundamentalism – “Anyone can interpret the Bible.”

You think wrong.

You are completely missing the mark. I have no issue with you not believing that the book of Revelation contains nothing about Luther or the Protestant Revolt against our Lord’s One True Church. You have every right to interpret Revelation that way so long as your view never contradicts known truths of the faith. Likewise, my belief that the book of Revelation (specifically chapter nine) speaks about Luther and the Protestant Revolt is also not against formal known truths of the faith. Therefore, we are both completely free to cotinue to believe as we do regarding that intriguing book.

Do I think have a deep education helps? Yes I do.

And therefore we should be very careful to not give the impression that people who merely speak English can provide deep interpretations of the complex symbology John uses.

Do you know my education level, what I have studied, what I know, or even how I received imprimaturs for Roman Catholic Scripture studies? No you do not.

It is up to you to cite your credentials if you want us to stand in awe of them.

I think we must be very, very careful when we start to think that only the highly educated can interpret the Bible, because that eliminates the working of the Holy Spirit. After all, the Apostles were NOT degreed in Catholic education, they received their knowledge from Jesus and from the Holy Spirit, not from books and classrooms, and there is a plethora of highly educated Catholic scholars that trip over basic truths of the faith.

And that is exactly what a fundamentalist would say. Which is why I raised that caution.

I respectfully advise you to walk carefully when you choose to diminish the skills, knowledge and gifts of fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I respectfully advise you to avoid giving the impression that it takes no skill or study to interpret the Bible.

 

[maryj]

Hi, Mary, thank you, and I am enjoying the discourse as well. Also, with regards to your comment on the 144,000 being the totality of the elect, and the mark of beast being the damned, that I would say is plausible. But I would also supplement it on another layer with my theory of the Sealed ones being only the faithful Catholic elect, for the following reason:

Evidently, the trumpets do not harm the “sealed ones”. I would say it is not right to take this literalistically, as though any elect persons will never suffer physically. I mean, when natural disasters occur, are we to believe that they never harm people who will eventually be in heaven. I surmise that you would never believe this anyway, but so then on this basis, I would say that the “protection” the sealed ones have is not physical but spiritual.

But, then, no that basis, consider this: is not one “harmed” spiritually when one believes things that are not true religiously? For example, if a Protestant, for example, cannot accept a particular Catholic doctrine, is he not being “harmed” in the very depths of his soul, for are not the doctrines of God part of our redemption, illumining our souls with the truths of a God who Loves us immeasurably, and who desires that we understand Him as fully as possible.

But then consider this very language of Scripture in the Two Witnesses: “and if any man will harm them, in this manner must he be harmed!”

There could be no more Catholic statement than this! For if a person, even if they are not subjectively culpable for their error, nevertheless cannot accept a particular truth of God, they are truly being harmed spiritually precisely to the degree that they are resisting the truth of God. For then, these errors pose a PARTIAL barrier between that person and God, a barrier that prevents the poor soul from receiving the full fruits of God’s Love and Grace. Take a perfect example even from a saint. I don’t know which saint this was (St. Teresa of Avila?), but she was experiencing a great ecstasy with God , but the fullness of the ecstasy could not be attained for her because she could not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Now, granted, she was not in sin, for the Church would not settle this issue dogmatically until several centuries later. But it does show that the inability to receive in love a particular set of truths of God does pose an obstacle to that persons fuller sanctification, and hence is truly a spiritual harm.

In that vein, you might consider my fuller take on the Two Witnesses here:

The Two Witnesses and the Witness of Scripture and Tradition

But to get to the final point, it is this: simply because a person is one of the elect does not ipso facto mean they cannot be harmed in their soul, and in particular in their faculty of intellect. For we can surmise there are many elect in the Muslims, the Orthodox, and the Protestants, and yet, in varying degrees and types, there are spiritual harms that are intrinsic to the fact they all possesss errors. Hence, only Catholics can have the fullness of spiritual protection in the matter of truth while on earth.

Blessings to you, Mary!
scott

I believe we agree. I’m sure this is an infuriating thought for non-catholics, but how can it be any other way. We as catholics have been given the fullness of truth, reminds me of one of my most favorite hymns to sing:
Change our hearts this time, your word says it can be.
Change our minds this time, your life could make us free.
We are the people your call set apart, Lord this time change our hearts.

Do I know all there is to know? Absolutely not, praying I will though. Had a long time yesterday at Adoration that I meditated on just one of the things you brought up, the difference between Physical and spiritual. I believe I was shown a truth I had never seen before, for lack of a better term. Had I thought about this before? Many, many times. But until I put it in front of my Lord, in His full Presence, I got no answer. My soul was truly illuminated. I don’t know if any of that makes any sense, but i agree with your points. Let us continue…

 

[Tom317]

You think wrong.

And therefore we should be very careful to not give the impression that people who merely speak English can provide deep interpretations of the complex symbology John uses.

It is up to you to cite your credentials if you want us to stand in awe of them.

And that is exactly what a fundamentalist would say. Which is why I raised that caution.

And I respectfully advise you to avoid giving the impression that it takes no skill or study to interpret the Bible.

Thanks for sharing. It is obvious that you do not want to have a mature conversation. So, with regards to this thread, I will ignore your posts.

Thanks for the chat.

 

[spauline]

Well said.

thanks, Tome.

 

[spauline]

I believe we agree. I’m sure this is an infuriating thought for non-catholics, but how can it be any other way. We as catholics have been given the fullness of truth, reminds me of one of my most favorite hymns to sing:
Change our hearts this time, your word says it can be.
Change our minds this time, your life could make us free.
We are the people your call set apart, Lord this time change our hearts.

Do I know all there is to know? Absolutely not, praying I will though. Had a long time yesterday at Adoration that I meditated on just one of the things you brought up, the difference between Physical and spiritual. I believe I was shown a truth I had never seen before, for lack of a better term. Had I thought about this before? Many, many times. But until I put it in front of my Lord, in His full Presence, I got no answer. My soul was truly illuminated. I don’t know if any of that makes any sense, but i agree with your points. Let us continue…

thank you so much, Mary. Yes, Adoration is a great blessing. To be even in the PHYSICAL presence of our Divine Savior is to be intimate with our Lord in the greatest way this side of death.

Well, I’ve got all kinds of stuff. Perhaps I can move on later to give further support for my ideas based on the very intrinisic spirituality of the Church herself, the spirituality of the saint! For there is a discerned spiritual process that theologians have seen in the general pattern of the intimate lives of the saints: and here we have the three stage way (but with much overlaps and layers):

I. The Purgative Way
II. The Illuminative Way
III. The Unitive way

In particular, I will share how especially, both in the Trumpets and the Two Witnesses, the Illuminative way becomes an even more important basis for my theory of the progressive spiritual process of the Trumpets. And it also finds basis in the OT. Some ECFs have explicitly stated that “five are the ages of the Old Law”, and Augustine himself (I can get you the quote online in a while) actually delineates these five stages, THREE of which are the story of the Jewish history, and which he explicitly states are “prophecy of the Gospel”. On that basis, is it no coincidence that the myriads of Catholic saints walk a three stage way, and would it not then make sense that, as the Jews and Catholic INDIVIDUAL Saints, the Church herself as a whole, must walk the way of the Saint, that was also the way of the Jews.

But I’ll get back more when I have time.

God Bless you, Mary! BTW, my mom’s name is Mary, and she is a wonderful person. I’m sure you are too!
In Her Love,
scott

 

[spauline]

Thanks for sharing. It is obvious that you do not want to have a mature conversation. So, with regards to this thread, I will ignore your posts.

Thanks for the chat.

Yes, Tom, unfortunately, it can many times be that Catholics are pushed to opposite extreme of Fundamentalism because they get angered by the attacks of the well-meaning evangelicals. It seems to be prevalent even in orthodox Catholic writers. Case in point is Carl Olson and David Currie. Coming from flaming fully-right minded apoc views, when they come into the Church, they revert to the opposite extreme, which is preterism. But in reality, as I’ve pointed out, neither of these extremes really gets at the real crux of the apocalyptic questions.

For I don’t think they consider this: Scripture begins with a genre that is not FULL allegory but PARTIAL allegory, and I here speak, of course, of Genesis. Sure, you can get fully allegorical meanings from Genesis 1-11. Of course you can. But in its ultimate sense, Genesis is not FULL allegory. It is PARTIAL allegory, in the sense that, in its fullest meaning, it is describing TRUE history that is dogmatic (at least partially, and here I speak of the Creation and Fall), but only in a figurative fashion.

Hence why would the book of Revelation, the final Sacred Writing, which is clearly a predestined complement to Genesis, be merely FULL allegory and not partial also. For just as salvation history had a BEGINNING, with its epochal ages (the Creation, Original Justice, the Fall, the Flood, Abraham), so salvation history shall have an END, for the age of the Church COMPLETES the Divine Plan for the Redemption of humanity. Hence, just Genesis gives us the spiritual outline of the initial ages of salvation history, why would the Book of the Revelation not reveal the completion of the SPIRITUAL process of the Redemption of humanity in the age of the Church, outlining not literal temporal history, but allegorically representing the spiritual ages that humanity passes through in the Church, that is, how Christ will complete the process of the Redemption of humanity, as well as its overall meaning?

I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here!

 

[Tom317]

Yes, Tom, unfortunately, it can many times be that Catholics are pushed to opposite extreme of Fundamentalism because they get angered by the attacks of the well-meaning evangelicals. It seems to be prevalent even in orthodox Catholic writers. Case in point is Carl Olson and David Currie. Coming from flaming fully-right minded apoc views, when they come into the Church, they revert to the opposite extreme, which is preterism. But in reality, as I’ve pointed out, neither of these extremes really gets at the real crux of the apocalyptic questions.

For I don’t think they consider this: Scripture begins with a genre that is not FULL allegory but PARTIAL allegory, and I here speak, of course, of Genesis. Sure, you can get fully allegorical meanings from Genesis 1-11. Of course you can. But in its ultimate sense, Genesis is not FULL allegory. It is PARTIAL allegory, in the sense that, in its fullest meaning, it is describing TRUE history that is dogmatic (at least partially, and here I speak of the Creation and Fall), but only in a figurative fashion.

Hence why would the book of Revelation, the final Sacred Writing, which is clearly a predestined complement to Genesis, be merely FULL allegory and not partial also. For just as salvation history had a BEGINNING, with its epochal ages (the Creation, Original Justice, the Fall, the Flood, Abraham), so salvation history shall have an END, for the age of the Church COMPLETES the Divine Plan for the Redemption of humanity. Hence, just Genesis gives us the spiritual outline of the initial ages of salvation history, why would the Book of the Revelation not reveal the completion of the SPIRITUAL process of the Redemption of humanity in the age of the Church, outlining not literal temporal history, but allegorically representing the spiritual ages that humanity passes through in the Church, that is, how Christ will complete the process of the Redemption of humanity, as well as its overall meaning?

I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here!

Yes, you are preaching to the choir, yet nevertheless, you state the matter very well.

 

[walt2000]

I have noticed that a nice portion of protestants like to use Revelation (and SDA couple it with Daniel) to “show” that the Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ, Whore of Babylon, and all that stuff. We keep saying no that is not what that means, we are not but, the accusations don’t seem to subside. I thought that it might be a good idea that we should actually try to fill the viod and show them what it does mean. I, myself, don’t know a thing of what Revelation means. I, embarreshingly so, avoid that book of the bible because I am just sure that I will not understand it and will come away with more confusion and less spiritual enlightlenment. Does anyone know of any good books that really indepth goes into the last book of the bible? Thanks and God bless.

If you want to know what Reveltions in saying look at my past posts or google walt2000 revelaions

 

[ryanoneil]

We are fighting the spiritual battle at mass that is what John was seeing the fight that we take place in. I dont think it is just a futurestic battle but one we can be part of now.

I agree completely. Jesus and the Eucharist are one and the same. Before Christ established a new Kingdom, whose sacramental meal was the Eucharist, who could imagine Jews and Gentiles eating together. The Eucharist is the “marriage supper of the Lamb” in (19:9), and at that meal were people “from every tribe and tongue and people and nation” (5:9) The “new (Eucharistic) song” they sing is the same sung by the 144,000. (14:3)

The Eucharist is the battle strategy of the Lamb. It proclaims the mystery of the gospel and is the center of the New Covenant Kingdom. (1 Cor 11:24-26) *and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. *

This sacrament strengthens our souls for our battles with the dragon. It fulfills the promise of Christ in the seventh letter: “If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me” (3:20) THE EUCHARIST IS JESUS!

The Eucharist is the Truth, the Word of God, which is the sword coming out of His mouth (19:15) and it is so powerful that it conquers the physical kingdoms of this world and breaks the dragon’s power over people’s minds.

What stirs the three angels of (14:7-9)?
The Eucharistic song of the 144,000!

How do we not worship the beast and it’s image? (14:11)
The Eucharist!

How do we endure and “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus”? (14:12)
The Eucharist!

What is our Hope?
Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said: “Alleluia! The Lord has established his reign, (our) God, the almighty. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment.” (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.) Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These words are true; they come from God.” I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers who bear witness to Jesus. Worship God. Witness to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (19:6-10)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[walt2000]

I agree completely. Jesus and the Eucharist are one and the same. Before Christ established a new Kingdom, whose sacramental meal was the Eucharist, who could imagine Jews and Gentiles eating together. The Eucharist is the “marriage supper of the Lamb” in (19:9), and at that meal were people “from every tribe and tongue and people and nation” (5:9) The “new (Eucharistic) song” they sing is the same sung by the 144,000. (14:3)

The Eucharist is the battle strategy of the Lamb. It proclaims the mystery of the gospel and is the center of the New Covenant Kingdom. (1 Cor 11:24-26) *and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. *

This sacrament strengthens our souls for our battles with the dragon. It fulfills the promise of Christ in the seventh letter: “If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me” (3:20) THE EUCHARIST IS JESUS!

The Eucharist is the Truth, the Word of God, which is the sword coming out of His mouth (19:15) and it is so powerful that it conquers the physical kingdoms of this world and breaks the dragon’s power over people’s minds.

What stirs the three angels of (14:7-9)?
The Eucharistic song of the 144,000!

How do we not worship the beast and it’s image? (14:11)
The Eucharist!

How do we endure and “keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus”? (14:12)
The Eucharist!

What is our Hope?
Then I heard something like the sound of a great multitude or the sound of rushing water or mighty peals of thunder, as they said: “Alleluia! The Lord has established his reign, (our) God, the almighty. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory. For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment.” (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.) Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb." And he said to me, “These words are true; they come from God.” I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t! I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brothers who bear witness to Jesus. Worship God. Witness to Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” (19:6-10)

Peace,

Ryan

What you got here is the SEVENTH THUNDER right on.:thumbsup:with a but your adding from other thunders
Rev.17 -20 Walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Now read Rev 21-22 by itself THUNDER NO. SEVEN
BY IT SELF.WALT2000

 

[walt2000]

What you got here is the SEVENTH THUNDER right on.:thumbsup:with a but your adding from other thunders things thu seen
Rev.21-22 Walt2000

 

[ryanoneil]

What you got here is the SEVENTH THUNDER right on.:thumbsup:with a but your adding from other thunders
Rev.17 -20 Walt2000

There is no problem adding 17-20:2, because the same events are taking place. We see the Heavenly and earthly realities.

*After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth became illumined by his splendor. He cried out in a mighty voice: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great. She has become a haunt for demons. She is a cage for every unclean spirit, a cage for every unclean bird, (a cage for every unclean) and disgusting (beast). *(18:1-2)

We are just seeing it from a different perspective, from the second angel in the battle strategy of the Lamb.

*A second angel followed, saying: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that made all the nations drink the wine of her licentious passion.” *(14:8)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Now read Rev 21-22 by itself THUNDER NO. SEVEN
BY IT SELF.WALT2000

Yes, I understand. Christ is reigning now, at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven. We, the Church Militant and Church Suffering have been one body in Christ, with the Church Triumphant, since His passion, death, and resurrection.

I see the difference. We look forward to the FULL realization of this, at the end of time. When God destroys the world and remakes it in perfection, we will hear God speak from His throne in Heaven. “Behold, I make all things new” (21:5)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[walt2000]

you are right on.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

Yes, I understand. Christ is reigning now, at the right hand of the Father, in Heaven. We, the Church Militant and Church Suffering have been one body in Christ, with the Church Triumphant, since His passion, death, and resurrection.

I see the difference. We look forward to the FULL realization of this, at the end of time. When God destroys the world and remakes it in perfection, we will hear God speak from His throne in Heaven. “Behold, I make all things new” (21:5)

Peace,

Ryan

When God destroys the world and remakes it in perfection, we will hear God speak from His throne in Heaven. “Behold, I make all things new” (21:5)

Well I’m not so sure about that, Maybe God ,destroys The old way of man ,And man finally evolves In to a new perfect immortal species of man .
It seems like a awful waste of flesh, finally bringing man in to perfection ,then bang ,destroying it .I enjoy this life I would like to see him perfect it but not get rid of it. walt2000

 

[ryanoneil]

Well I’m not so sure about that, Maybe God ,destroys The old way of man ,And man finally evolves In to a new perfect immortal species of man .
It seems like a awful waste of flesh, finally bringing man in to perfection ,then bang ,destroying it .I enjoy this life I would like to see him perfect it but not get rid of it. walt2000

I should have said passed away, instead of destroyed. The old gives way for a new creation.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. (Rev 21:1)

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. (2 Pet 3:10)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[walt2000]

That is a very much better way of putting it.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

things thu seen walt2000

 

[walt2000]

chart things which are walt2000