What does Satan do?

[LegoGE1947]

Might I ask what you mean by this? Ignorant of what? Bigotry? If this were a thread about gays, I might at least see where you are coming from with that, even though I would disagree. Who am I being a bigot TO in this case? Abortion doctors? Woman who kill their own children? Oh, I see, I should “understand” why they have to do this? No, I don’t understand, and I don’t agree.

Or are you trying to say that there is no Devil and we are all being silly talking about him? I might have a lot of questions as to HOW and WHY the Devil works the way he does, but I have no question about his existence, he is very real. I have seen his work in my life very clearly now that I am free of his snares. I am sure you think this silly, but he has you too…

My family and I lived in an apartment above some people who were worshipers of Satan. I could see Satan in the man’s eyes when we had disagreement as to when he and his family could play loud rock and roll music after city curfew when my family and I were trying to sleep. He would have beat the bejiggers out of me had my wife not called the police. So don’t tell me Satan doesn’t exist or work through certain people in this world There was another time when we had a run-in and some friends of ours just happened to pass by. These people were former bikers and had converted to Christianity and when they showed up the neighbor sensed the presence of Christ and left me real quick.

 

[fred_conty]

Here are a couple of interesting sites.

A Satanist, Zach King, talks about it.
click zachary king
www.comeholyspiritconferences.org

Evidence of satan in the modern world
ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/EVIDSATN.HTM

 

[wanstronian]

Thank you for your description of our distilled ignorant bigoted thread. Now you may tell us about YOUR ignorant bigotry. Do you approve of abortion,

Whether or not I approve of abortion is not only irrelevant, but also not a question that can be answered with a straight “yes” or “no” - there are all sorts of factors to consider. But fundamentally, it’s the woman’s right to choose. Disapproval of such a choice is no reason to remove that choice. And the fundamental right to choose should certainly not be removed as a result of a subjective interpretation of certain passages within a three thousand-year old collection of fairy stories like the Bible.

Do you approve of the Devil’s tactics?

The devil doesn’t exist, so commenting on its tactics would be pointless.

Would you like it if you had been aborted as an infant?

As an infant? No, I probably wouldn’t have enjoyed it. As a 20-week old foetus with no consciousness and no nervous system? I wouldn’t have even known about it. It’s loaded language like this (calling a foetus an infant when it’s nothing of the sort) that reveals the (deliberate?) ignorance of the anti-abortion lobbyists. A foetus is not a child.

Do you like the horrible condition the world is in presently?

The world has good aspects and bad aspects, and it has always been thus. There is no reason to ascribe the good bits to religious belief and the bad bits to the absence thereof. So I don’t see the relevance of your question.

Anyone who is anti Catholic is bigoted. Does that discribe you? Have a nice forever!

That’s funny! Not only do you implicitly state that all Catholics are not bigots and all non-Catholics are bigots (by mere assertion, no less! How ironically bigoted!!), but you also are seemingly unaware of the OED definition of “bigot:”

1. A hypocritical or superstitious adherent of religion

Might I ask what you mean by this? Ignorant of what? Bigotry?

Ignorant of the actual issues surrounding abortion and its impact. Hence bigoted in making judgements based on this, as well as on a misconception of what defines a “person” and an arbitrary and oppressive opinion on who should decide whether a termination is right or wrong.

If this were a thread about gays, I might at least see where you are coming from with that, even though I would disagree. Who am I being a bigot TO in this case? Abortion doctors? Woman who kill their own children?

Your ignorance shines through here. Women don’t “kill children” when they have an abortion; they terminate foetuses. Foetuses are not aware, they feel no pain. This is the “Loaded Language” fallacy, and it doesn’t score any points.

Oh, I see, I should “understand” why they have to do this? No, I don’t understand, and I don’t agree.

No, you clearly don’t understand. That’s why you are an igorant bigot. You don’t understand, but you still feel qualified to judge.

Or are you trying to say that there is no Devil and we are all being silly talking about him? I might have a lot of questions as to HOW and WHY the Devil works the way he does, but I have no question about his existence, he is very real. I have seen his work in my life very clearly now that I am free of his snares.

Can you give an example of “his” work that you have seen, that couldn’t be explained in any other way?

I am sure you think this silly,

Yes, I do.

but he has you too…

Nope - I’m under the protection of the Invisible Pink Unicorns. Satan can’t get near me. if he tries, my invisible marshmallow elves will give him a wedgie.

According to Jesus, Satan is mostly a liar and a murderer. And it’s not bigotry to say so.

No - it’s just story-telling.

 

[wanstronian]

My family and I lived in an apartment above some people who were worshipers of Satan. I could see Satan in the man’s eyes when we had disagreement as to when he and his family could play loud rock and roll music after city curfew when my family and I were trying to sleep. He would have beat the bejiggers out of me had my wife not called the police. So don’t tell me Satan doesn’t exist or work through certain people in this world There was another time when we had a run-in and some friends of ours just happened to pass by. These people were former bikers and had converted to Christianity and when they showed up the neighbor sensed the presence of Christ and left me real quick.

Let me get this straight: Your neighbours wanted to play loud music, therefore they’re in the control of Satan? And when your large ex-biker friends turned up and you seriously outnumbered your neighbours, they decided not to continue with the confrontation?

And your explanation is that they were scared of the spiritual presence of Christ, not the physical presence of your burly biker mates?

This has to be a wind-up. You’re not serious?

 

[LegoGE1947]

Let me get this straight: Your neighbours wanted to play loud music, therefore they’re in the control of Satan? And when your large ex-biker friends turned up and you seriously outnumbered your neighbours, they decided not to continue with the confrontation?

And your explanation is that they were scared of the spiritual presence of Christ, not the physical presence of your burly biker mates?

This has to be a wind-up. You’re not serious?

The biker-mates were a man and his wife and they were not burly but of average size. The neighbors were playing loud music late into the night Our city has a curfew on such things and they were disobeying the law. I politely went and asked them to turn the music down whereupon the man who was bigger than I came out on his porch grabbed me and pushed me up against a wall and started swearing at me to leave him the !@#$% alone and threatened to beat the daylights out of me. The biker-friend that came to my rescue was only one man of average size (his wife remained in their car) but he knew that the ugly spiritual presence of the devil in my neighbor was no match for the spiritual presence of Christ in himself. And it is no wind-up I am dead serious. There were other things the neighbors were doing as well such as dealing drugs, etc. I may be ignorant but I’m no bigot. I take my people one at a time. My son in law has a brother who is gay, for example but I don’t make a big scene as long as he leaves me alone. I’d rather that he was not gay but he made a choice and he’ll have to live with that choice and bear any consequences. I will leave judgment up to this God whom you say doesn’t exist. As far as ignorance is concerned “Ignorance can be fixed–stupid is forever!” Pray for me that my ignorance will go away as I live and learn more things. Thank you. I shall pray for you too.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Whether or not I approve of abortion is not only irrelevant, but also not a question that can be answered with a straight “yes” or “no” - there are all sorts of factors to consider. But fundamentally, it’s the woman’s right to choose. Disapproval of such a choice is no reason to remove that choice. And the fundamental right to choose should certainly not be removed as a result of a subjective interpretation of certain passages within a three thousand-year old collection of fairy stories like the Bible.

The devil doesn’t exist, so commenting on its tactics would be pointless.

As an infant? No, I probably wouldn’t have enjoyed it. As a 20-week old foetus with no consciousness and no nervous system? I wouldn’t have even known about it. It’s loaded language like this (calling a foetus an infant when it’s nothing of the sort) that reveals the (deliberate?) ignorance of the anti-abortion lobbyists. A foetus is not a child.

The world has good aspects and bad aspects, and it has always been thus. There is no reason to ascribe the good bits to religious belief and the bad bits to the absence thereof. So I don’t see the relevance of your question.

That’s funny! Not only do you implicitly state that all Catholics are not bigots and all non-Catholics are bigots (by mere assertion, no less! How ironically bigoted!!), but you also are seemingly unaware of the OED definition of “bigot:”

1. A hypocritical or superstitious adherent of religion

Ignorant of the actual issues surrounding abortion and its impact. Hence bigoted in making judgements based on this, as well as on a misconception of what defines a “person” and an arbitrary and oppressive opinion on who should decide whether a termination is right or wrong.

Your ignorance shines through here. Women don’t “kill children” when they have an abortion; they terminate foetuses. Foetuses are not aware, they feel no pain. This is the “Loaded Language” fallacy, and it doesn’t score any points.

No, you clearly don’t understand. That’s why you are an igorant bigot. You don’t understand, but you still feel qualified to judge.

Can you give an example of “his” work that you have seen, that couldn’t be explained in any other way?

Yes, I do.

Nope - I’m under the protection of the Invisible Pink Unicorns. Satan can’t get near me. if he tries, my invisible marshmallow elves will give him a wedgie.

No - it’s just story-telling.

What about the baby’s right to choose? In the US alone there have been approx. 60,000,000 abortions since 1973. One of those aborted babies may have grown up to become a scientist who may have discovered a vaccine to cure all forms of cancer. But we won’t know that will we because he or she was killed before birth and never had the choice to live. And even if all those 60,000,000 people would have simply grown to be average men and women on the street and no celebrities they would still be important to God since he gave everyone of them an immortal soul and sent his only Son Jesus to shed blood for them so that they would have the chance to love, serve and worship him and then come and live with him forever.

 

[wanstronian]

The biker-mates were a man and his wife and they were not burly but of average size.

Then I suspect you’re showing sign of further bigotry right there. In your previous post you said that they used to be bikers but had converted to Christianity. The implication being that bikers are intrinsically unpleasant, immoral people (by dint of not being Christians, which everybody knows is the only way to be nice and moral). Otherwise what was the point of highlighting their hobby?

The neighbors were playing loud music late into the night Our city has a curfew on such things and they were disobeying the law. I politely went and asked them to turn the music down whereupon the man who was bigger than I came out on his porch grabbed me and pushed me up against a wall and started swearing at me to leave him the !@#$% alone and threatened to beat the daylights out of me. The biker-friend that came to my rescue was only one man of average size (his wife remained in their car) but he knew that the ugly spiritual presence of the devil in my neighbor was no match for the spiritual presence of Christ in himself.

Your friend might well have believed that. I suspect your neighbour suddenly realised it was two against one. I’m not condoning your neighbour’s actions, but to believe that he was possessed by the devil, who suddenly took fright at the presence of a Christian spirit, is ridiculous. You’re just fabricating a desired phenomenon and weaving it into reality. Here’s another hypothesis, equally as plausible as yours. Your neighbour was a Sagittarius, and your friend was a Gemini. At that exact date in time, Sagittarians were inexplicably repelled by any Geminis they encountered. So your neighbour was forced to retreat.

And it is no wind-up I am dead serious. There were other things the neighbors were doing as well such as dealing drugs, etc.

Again - not condonable, but hardly evidence of the existence of Satan.

I may be ignorant but I’m no bigot. I take my people one at a time. My son in law has a brother who is gay, for example but I don’t make a big scene as long as he leaves me alone.

You think that makes you unbigoted??

I’d rather that he was not gay but he made a choice and he’ll have to live with that choice and bear any consequences.

Being happy, for example, instead of being ostracised or made to feel abnormal by people who get their ethics out of a book instead of thinking for themselves…

I will leave judgment up to this God whom you say doesn’t exist. As far as ignorance is concerned “Ignorance can be fixed–stupid is forever!” Pray for me that my ignorance will go away as I live and learn more things. Thank you. I shall pray for you too.

I’m not going to pray for you - I prefer actions that get results. And anyway, it’s up to you to learn knowledge and tolerance, not for some make-believe deity to just give it to you. Don’t be so lazy.

What about the baby’s right to choose?

There you go again, calling it a baby. It’s a foetus. It’s not a person, so it has no legal rights.

In the US alone there have been approx. 60,000,000 abortions since 1973. One of those aborted babies

foetuses

may have grown up to become a scientist who may have discovered a vaccine to cure all forms of cancer. But we won’t know that will we because he or she was killed before birth and never had the choice to live.

So what? They might all have grown up to be axe murderers or the perpetrators of genocide. Would it have been a good idea for Hitler’s mother to have had an abortion?

And even if all those 60,000,000 people would have simply grown to be average men and women on the street and no celebrities they would still be important to God since he gave everyone of them an immortal soul and sent his only Son Jesus to shed blood for them so that they would have the chance to love, serve and worship him and then come and live with him forever.

If that’s true, then why does God murder so many “babies” in the form of spontaneous abortion?

The problem here is that the anti-abortion religious right have no awareness of the biological facts of gestation, and no awareness of the social and emotional issues surrounding abortion. Or they suppress them because they deem their hokey superstition to be more important. So they act on the ridiculous premise that there are tiny people living inside women from the moment of conception, and that all potential life must be allowed to persist no matter what. They could, with a little effort, avail themselves of the vast tracts of information that would correct their erroneous thinking, but they prefer to discard the wealth of actual real, valuable knowledge in favour of a subjectively interpreted message from a story book written by stone age savages.

Like I said in my first post: ignorant bigotry.

 

[Pallando]

I tend to see ‘Satan’ as what is most aptly called ‘The Accuser.’ Satan tries to instill doubt, fear, guilt and resentment in me and anyone, but really he is simply the fractured image of myself - what in Freudian terms is the inflated Superego. The important thing is to know that you are guiltless. That darkness cannot and never will taint you. That is the esoteric meaning of who I take Satan as being. Not some metaphysical boogeyman.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Dihydrogen

**Unless you tell that to a satanist. **

Then again, a satanist would be glad to hear Satan is a liar and a murderer, so why would he call it bigotry so much as a thumbs up for his boss?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Wanstronian

There you go again, calling it a baby. It’s a foetus. It’s not a person, so it has no legal rights.

Not so. California law specifically allows that if you kill a pregnant woman you can be indicted for a double homicide. You have not just killed her fetus. You have killed her baby. How can there be a double homicide indictment if the baby did not have a right to live?

As to Roe v Wade, Justices Byron White and William Rehnquist dissented, criticizing the majority for creating a “trimester” schedule that allowed abortion in the early phases but restricted abortion in the later phases. They pointed out that the trimester schedule was arbitrary, since the potential and right of the fetus to be born was as strong at the first as it was at the last stage.

 

[wanstronian]

Wanstronian

Not so. California law specifically allows that if you kill a pregnant woman you can be indicted for a double homicide. You have not just killed her fetus. You have killed her baby. How can there be a double homicide indictment if the baby did not have a right to live?

That’s a reasonable point. Assuming that abortion is not illegal in California, then it appears they have double standards. Does the pregnancy have to have reached a certain stage to result in a double homicide?

In any event, even though it’s prima facie double standards, I think it’s reasonable to distinguish between a murderer killing a pregnant woman and her unborn foetus, and the mother herself deciding to terminate.

But like I said in my first post in this thread, it’s never black and white.

As to Roe v Wade, Justices Byron White and William Rehnquist dissented, criticizing the majority for creating a “trimester” schedule that allowed abortion in the early phases but restricted abortion in the later phases. They pointed out that the trimester schedule was arbitrary, since the potential and right of the fetus to be born was as strong at the first as it was at the last stage.

As far as I’m aware, the cut-off date for termination (24 weeks in the UK, don’t know about the US) is derived from years of medical evidence and research that has shown that a pre-24-week foetus is not viable. It also has no CNS nor sentience.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**As far as I’m aware, the cut-off date for termination (24 weeks in the UK, don’t know about the US) is derived from years of medical evidence and research that has shown that a pre-24-week foetus is not viable. It also has no CNS nor sentience. **

I don’t see why that would be grounds for destroying the life of the child. It is still human, even if it cannot exist apart from the mother. You and I were once at that stage. It’s not as if we were something other than human that suddenly became human at an arbitrary point in time. What is being taken away from the baby is not only its present life, but the 70 or more years it has left to live. That’s a lot of taking.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Dihydrogen

**Unless you tell that to a satanist. **

Then again, a satanist would be glad to hear Satan is a liar and a murderer, so why would he call it bigotry so much as a thumbs up for his boss?

Yeah, you’re probably right. x)

 

[LegoGE1947]

Then I suspect you’re showing sign of further bigotry right there. In your previous post you said that they used to be bikers but had converted to Christianity. The implication being that bikers are intrinsically unpleasant, immoral people (by dint of not being Christians, which everybody knows is the only way to be nice and moral). Otherwise what was the point of highlighting their hobby?

Your friend might well have believed that. I suspect your neighbour suddenly realised it was two against one. I’m not condoning your neighbour’s actions, but to believe that he was possessed by the devil, who suddenly took fright at the presence of a Christian spirit, is ridiculous. You’re just fabricating a desired phenomenon and weaving it into reality. Here’s another hypothesis, equally as plausible as yours. Your neighbour was a Sagittarius, and your friend was a Gemini. At that exact date in time, Sagittarians were inexplicably repelled by any Geminis they encountered. So your neighbour was forced to retreat.

Again - not condonable, but hardly evidence of the existence of Satan.

You think that makes you unbigoted??

Being happy, for example, instead of being ostracised or made to feel abnormal by people who get their ethics out of a book instead of thinking for themselves…

I’m not going to pray for you - I prefer actions that get results. And anyway, it’s up to you to learn knowledge and tolerance, not for some make-believe deity to just give it to you. Don’t be so lazy.

There you go again, calling it a baby. It’s a foetus. It’s not a person, so it has no legal rights.

foetuses

So what? They might all have grown up to be axe murderers or the perpetrators of genocide. Would it have been a good idea for Hitler’s mother to have had an abortion?

If that’s true, then why does God murder so many “babies” in the form of spontaneous abortion?

The problem here is that the anti-abortion religious right have no awareness of the biological facts of gestation, and no awareness of the social and emotional issues surrounding abortion. Or they suppress them because they deem their hokey superstition to be more important. So they act on the ridiculous premise that there are tiny people living inside women from the moment of conception, and that all potential life must be allowed to persist no matter what. They could, with a little effort, avail themselves of the vast tracts of information that would correct their erroneous thinking, but they prefer to discard the wealth of actual real, valuable knowledge in favour of a subjectively interpreted message from a story book written by stone age savages.

Like I said in my first post: ignorant bigotry.

When does a foetus become a human being? I’m not being lazy and please stop calling us ignorant bigots. Go find some Muslems and try that. You’ll wind up with a bullet or knife in your back. Speaking of vast tracts of information, you might like to avail yourself of some and rethink your thinking about religion, Christianity in particular. There is a wealth of information both for and against it. Any question or problem you have with it has already be covered by millions of people over the past 2000 years. Have you ever heard of a priest named Frank Pavone? If you would contact him by e-mail he would be happy to answer your questions. You could contact him at this email address www.priestsforlife.org. Thank you.

 

[wanstronian]

I don’t see why that would be grounds for destroying the life of the child. It is still human, even if it cannot exist apart from the mother.

I’ll return to your loaded language in a bit, but first I have to pick you up on your straw man. Of course a lack of sentience is not “grounds” for destroying the life of a “child” (as you insist on calling the foetus). However it is a perfectly valid reason for not opposing the termination of the foetus.

Now, regarding your continued loaded language: It is not a child. It is a foetus. Your insistence on using incorrect terminology (possibly through ignorance of the biological facts) is clouding your judgement.

You and I were once at that stage. It’s not as if we were something other than human that suddenly became human at an arbitrary point in time. What is being taken away from the baby is not only its present life, but the 70 or more years it has left to live. That’s a lot of taking.

It’s not a baby. It’s a foetus. And you can’t take away that which hasn’t happened.

 

[wanstronian]

When does a foetus become a human being?

This is a disingenuous question. A human foetus has human DNA, and will often develop into an infant child. When that happens varies from individual to individual. But it doesn’t happen before 24 weeks after conception.

I’m not being lazy and please stop calling us ignorant bigots.

Stop being one then. Demonstrate some awareness of the real facts and issues rather than just repeating dogma.

Go find some Muslems and try that. You’ll wind up with a bullet or knife in your back.

How is that relevant? Christian opinion is valid and true simply because you don’t automatically murder dissenters any more? Compared to Islam, Christianity’s not so bad? Really, do you think that’s a good argument?

Speaking of vast tracts of information, you might like to avail yourself of some and rethink your thinking about religion, Christianity in particular. There is a wealth of information both for and against it. Any question or problem you have with it has already be covered by millions of people over the past 2000 years. Have you ever heard of a priest named Frank Pavone? If you would contact him by e-mail he would be happy to answer your questions. You could contact him at this email address www.priestsforlife.org. Thank you.

Of all the answers and “explanations” I’ve heard from theists overs the years, not one has stood up to scrutiny. I think it’s extremely unlikely that this particular priest would have convincing answers, and for me never to have heard of them. I’m an empiricist, and don’t really take arbitrary speculation at face value, I’m afraid. As per my sig.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Wanstronian

**It’s not a baby. It’s a foetus. And you can’t take away that which hasn’t happened. **

But it has happened. Call it what you want to call it. It was destined to live on average 70 years. All that was taken away.

If it had happened to you, you would not be alive today. Don’t deny that you were a fetus, the child of your mother and father, sharing their DNA. You had as much right to live as they did. They believed it because they gave you life in the womb instead of killing you in the womb.

If you think a fetus does not have exactly the same DNA as the mother and the father combined, you don’t even believe in science, never mind the right of children to live their full 70 years.

You don’t get to demolish the rights of a human being by calling it a fetus instead of a child.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Interesting,“it’s not a baby” .I have yet to hear anyone inquire of a pregnant woman: “When is your fetus due?”“Have you felt your fetus move yet.” “Do you know what sex your fetus is?“The medical term for a " baby” in utero is fetus,however,as the saying goes…” a rose by any other name is still a rose"…

 

[tonyrey]

Interesting,“it’s not a baby” .I have yet to hear anyone inquire of a pregnant woman: “When is your fetus due?”“Have you felt your fetus move yet.” “Do you know what sex your fetus is?“The medical term for a " baby” in utero is fetus,however,as the saying goes…” a rose by any other name is still a rose"…

Welcome to the forum, Jeanne! It’s refreshing to have a breath of common sense.

 

[tonyrey]

A human foetus has human DNA, and will often develop into an infant child. When that happens varies from individual to individual. But it doesn’t happen before 24 weeks after conception.

Why should the stage of development factor determine the right to life. Why not p(name removed by moderator)oint the moment of birth?