What does the Bible say about?

[Publisher]

Then why is suffering such an honorable thing. Why is it so helpful in our salvation. It is through suffering that we have true faith, hope, or love. It is in suffering that we are freed from our sins in purgatory. Spiritual Death and damnation to Hell is the punishment of sin, not suffering. If suffering was the punishment then we would all be in a torture room seaking forgiveness instead of on Earth. And if suffering was the punishment, then why isn’t that removed for our lives as our sins and the death of our souls are removed by Christ’s death

I also don’t think the world we live in gives evidence that the Earth was made without suffering at any point. Science has not found any evidence that there was no suffering before humans (as there is evidence that animals and life on earth went on the same way it does today with death and suffering) I think the Bible doesn’t even say the whole world was without suffering. Yes, the fields were easier to plow and there may not have been pains in childbirth, but the Bible doesn’t specifically say anything about other suffering. It says that on the day you sin you will surely die (but they did not physically die indicating that it was a spiritual death) you will toil in the fields and have pain in childbirth. It never condemns humanity to suffering diseases or injuries.

God does not intend us to suffer…HOWEVER it IS a condition of mortality. We as believers in Christ and His Body in this world…we are called to share the burden for this world…To allow God to take our mishaps and pain…our disease or disability…or just a complicated life…to "share in the suffering of Christ…to share as individuals seeking to share incarnation with him…it is BECAUSE of the hope and faith we have in the God who gave us life…that we share in His suffering…share His Life in this world…the Reality of God’s Love and Mercy is seen in very concrete ways in our world.

 

[Heuchler]

God does not intend us to suffer…HOWEVER it IS a condition of mortality. We as believers in Christ and His Body in this world…we are called to share the burden for this world…To allow God to take our mishaps and pain…our disease or disability…or just a complicated life…to "share in the suffering of Christ…to share as individuals seeking to share incarnation with him…it is BECAUSE of the hope and faith we have in the God who gave us life…that we share in His suffering…share His Life in this world…the Reality of God’s Love and Mercy is seen in very concrete ways in our world.

Friend, if what you are saying is correct then before Christ and the cross, it was fine to run away from any suffering and there was no point in suffering and helping others. Since Buddha was around before Christ it was great that he created a whole philosophy devoted to escaping suffering. If a husband sacrificed himself for his wife before Christ died, did this have no purpose or good. Suffering is good with or without the context of Christ. There is a reason we are told “greater love hath no man than to die for one’s friends” If suffering came from evil then the greatest of love wouldn’t come from it.

 

[Publisher]

Friend, if what you are saying is correct then before Christ and the cross, it was fine to run away from any suffering and there was no point in suffering and helping others. Since Buddha was around before Christ it was great that he created a whole philosophy devoted to escaping suffering. If a husband sacrificed himself for his wife before Christ died, did this have no purpose or good. Suffering is good with or without the context of Christ. There is a reason we are told “greater love hath no man than to die for one’s friends” If suffering came from evil then the greatest of love wouldn’t come from it.

Not if sharing in the Lamb Slain from the foundations of the world…there have always been those who would share incarnation with Him…all who would live as the People of God in our world…and as the People of God…we are joined together in that one moment in time AT THE CROSS.

 

[William_Pitts]

Suffering is a gift from God. It causes us to rely on him. It allows us to participate in redemption. I do not ask for a miracle for myself, but instead ask that my suffering be used to bring others to the truth.

Rom 8:16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, **provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. **
Rom 8:18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

I also see my suffering as penance. Perhaps it will be complete when I leave this life.

 

[stayinthelight]

WOW You get it:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Pat

Thanks, Pat.

All praise belongs to God. If there is anything good about my comment, then it’s only because of Christ.

God bless you, too.

 

[Nicea325]

Correct me if I am wrong,but when one is baptized he or she is baptized into the life and death of Jesus? Would it not include suffering?

 

[TimothyH]

So my friends;
Does suffering HAVE a role in salvation? And if so WHAT

And IF not way is there suffering?

Someone posted a link to the Apostolic Letter Salvifici Doloris, from Blessed John Paul II, on the redemptive nature of suffering. Iit is worth reading.

Apostolic Letter SALVIFICI DOLORIS

-Tim-

 

[cooterhein]

So my friends;
Does suffering HAVE a role in salvation? And if so WHAT

And IF not way is there suffering?

Suffering can have a role in the propogation of the gospel. And if I may frame it in a positive manner rather than a negative one, it tends to be the kind of suffering that most clearly demonstrates love that does the most to propogate the Gospel. This is intimately related to the way in which Christ most clearly demonstrated His love for us.

Of course, the exact message of our suffering and Christ’s suffering is somewhat different, albeit related. Jesus’ message was I am God, I love you, and I’d rather die than live without you. Our message is I love you, and the love of Christ compels me to help you know Him even if I have to suffer in the process. It points the way to the more perfect love and more perfect sacrifice of the more perfect being.

 

[Syele]

Then why is suffering such an honorable thing. Why is it so helpful in our salvation. It is through suffering that we have true faith, hope, or love. It is in suffering that we are freed from our sins in purgatory.

As I mentioned already, God works all things for good. How you react to the trials of your life God sees and honors suffering for others, God teaches you through the suffering you have due to your own failings. Similarly, I do not force suffering on my kid because it will “do her good” but I do expect her to deal with problems gracefully and to learn from the consequences of her mistakes. Because of those expectations I have for my kid, I do not cheild her from proper consequences for her actions. I believe God treats us in a similar fashion.

Spiritual Death and damnation to Hell is the punishment of sin, not suffering.

Spiritual Death and damnation to hell is the punishment for sin that you have not repented of. Jesus died to save us from that and take that consequence for us when we are truly repentant. It does not remove all earthly suffering from us along with it.

Job also suffered a great deal through no sin of his own, but would he have been tortured so if not for the fall of man? If Satan was not let loose on earth as tempter?

If suffering was the punishment then we would all be in a torture room seaking forgiveness instead of on Earth. And if suffering was the punishment, then why isn’t that removed for our lives as our sins and the death of our souls are removed by Christ’s death

It’s less “punishment” than natural consequence. God is not up there waiting to smite us when we fail, but He will be ready to teach us to be better people though the consequences we cause for ourselves.

I also don’t think the world we live in gives evidence that the Earth was made without suffering at any point. Science has not found any evidence that there was no suffering before humans (as there is evidence that animals and life on earth went on the same way it does today with death and suffering) I think the Bible doesn’t even say the whole world was without suffering. Yes, the fields were easier to plow and there may not have been pains in childbirth, but the Bible doesn’t specifically say anything about other suffering. It says that on the day you sin you will surely die (but they did not physically die indicating that it was a spiritual death) you will toil in the fields and have pain in childbirth. It never condemns humanity to suffering diseases or injuries.

The Bible may not say flat out that the world was completely free of suffering before sin but that does not prove anything, it is arguing from a logical fallacy *Argumentum Ad Ignorantium. *Scripture does allude to the idea that suffering is caused by sin in several places, including the Genesis account of the fall of man and verses like the ones below that let us know that if there is some natural reactions for our actions.

Galations 6:7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows, 8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 So we must not grow weary in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not give up.

 

[Syele]

James:

Forgive me for being a bit picky for there is much good in your response. However I feel the need point out that the bolded section above is contradicted in the Gospel in John 9:1-3.1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him.Of course today, no one would equate a child being born blind to sin (though it is possible) or as divine punishment for sin, but the Jews of Jesus day certainly did.
More important for us to understand in this is what Jesus means by “but that the works of God might be made manifest in him”. Certainly it means that Jesus will cure the man, but even more it means that we, by our own actions in Love toward such ones, make manifest God’s Love to our fellow man.

Peace
James

I am not saying that that man or his parents sinned and he is now blind. I am saying suffering entered the world through sin, and people also suffer beacuse of sin (not necessarily their own or their parents in particular). I’m also not saying that God is “punishing” people who suffer. Maybe we need to define suffering more too. I like how Rich Deem pointed out that Jesus also suggested people remove parts of them that cause them to sin:

Jesus says there are more important things than having limbs. In fact, He suggested that people amputate their limbs (or gouge out their eyes) if those parts helped them to sin: "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it** is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.** "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. (Matthew 18:8-9)

I’m not entirely convinced that the verse you pointed out is so much about the man “suffering” but instead God gave that man what THAT MAN needed most: “that the works of God might be made manifest in him.”

Suffering is subjective. There are things I do in my life on a daily basis that others sometimes say “I could never do that! It must be so HARD!” Their opinion of what is suffering is only that, their opinion. For me, that thing is not hard at all, I like it!! It was not the blind man complaining, it was others looking on who wondered if blindness was due to sin. God does what is best for us. I would not classify all things that are difficult as suffering. Is it difficult to be Blind? Of course it is. Are all blind people miserable everyday, suffering over ever moment? Not the ones I know, it’s hard but they deal with the hardness of it and get on with the business of living life. Many of them are all the stronger for it too.

Suffering is not the same thing as something being hard.

 

[Heuchler]

The Bible may not say flat out that the world was completely free of suffering before sin but that does not prove anything, it is arguing from a logical fallacy *Argumentum Ad Ignorantium. *Scripture does allude to the idea that suffering is caused by sin in several places, including the Genesis account of the fall of man and verses like the ones below that let us know that if there is some natural reactions for our actions.

How is it a logical fallacy to say the Bible never says it is evil but it does show how it can be good? “Greater love hath no man than to die for one’s friends.” If weren’t made with the capacity to suffer then why is the greatest love a human can have require suffering? If it is not intended for us then why is it part of the greatest love?

The verse you used is not referring to suffering. That would be the interpretation of the pharisees of the time (if they read Paul) but it is referring once again to our spiritual death. Those who sow to the flesh will not receive Eternal life but will receive Hell. Those who sow to the spirit will receive eternal life. There is a difference in the suffering that is shoved upon us, and the noble suffering that we choose to take on. Both can help us, but the second is what is needed to truly be like Christ. I think this is the main point of misunderstanding.

 

[JRKH]

I am not saying that that man or his parents sinned and he is now blind. I am saying suffering entered the world through sin, and people also suffer beacuse of sin (not necessarily their own or their parents in particular). I’m also not saying that God is “punishing” people who suffer. Maybe we need to define suffering more too. I like how Rich Deem pointed out that Jesus also suggested people remove parts of them that cause them to sin:

I’m not entirely convinced that the verse you pointed out is so much about the man “suffering” but instead God gave that man what THAT MAN needed most: “that the works of God might be made manifest in him.”

Suffering is subjective. There are things I do in my life on a daily basis that others sometimes say “I could never do that! It must be so HARD!” Their opinion of what is suffering is only that, their opinion. For me, that thing is not hard at all, I like it!! It was not the blind man complaining, it was others looking on who wondered if blindness was due to sin. God does what is best for us. I would not classify all things that are difficult as suffering. Is it difficult to be Blind? Of course it is. Are all blind people miserable everyday, suffering over ever moment? Not the ones I know, it’s hard but they deal with the hardness of it and get on with the business of living life. Many of them are all the stronger for it too.

Suffering is not the same thing as something being hard.

Thank you for the clarification. I believe that you and I are on the “same page”.

The main reason for my comment was that I did not want anyone to misunderstand your comment: “I believe all suffering is the result of sin, God did not desire that His Children suffer.”. You have now clarified that so we are good.

Also, I like your comment about suffering being subjective. In certain (even many) cases it is. Although there certainly are “objective” aspects to suffering (pain, sorrow, grief etc.), much depends on our outlook and how we deal with our suffering.

Peace
James

 

[tskrobacz]

Suffering occurs whenever we resist or are unable to accept the reality of the moment. Whenever your are rightly oriented in the world you are able to be a healing and loving presence instead of being part of the problem - regardless of what life presents to you.

 

[JRKH]

Suffering occurs whenever we resist or are unable to accept the reality of the moment. Whenever your are rightly oriented in the world you are able to be a healing and loving presence instead of being part of the problem - regardless of what life presents to you.

Nicely put. However, I would point out that, when a person is being eaten up with cancer, incapacitated by a stroke, being slowly diminished by dementia OR near to people who have such conditions, they DO suffer. It may be largely internal, it may be offered up to God that God may do good with it and those who suffer CAN certainly be an encouragement to those around them…But whether they resist or not…They do suffer…

Trust me on this one…

Peace
James

 

[tskrobacz]

Nicely put. However, I would point out that, when a person is being eaten up with cancer, incapacitated by a stroke, being slowly diminished by dementia OR near to people who have such conditions, they DO suffer. It may be largely internal, it may be offered up to God that God may do good with it and those who suffer CAN certainly be an encouragement to those around them…But whether they resist or not…They do suffer…

Trust me on this one…

Peace
James

Yes, you are speaking of suffering of the body…I was speaking of suffering of the soul.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, you are speaking of suffering of the body…I was speaking of suffering of the soul.

Fair enough, but I can tell you truly that it is sometimes hard to separate one from the other.

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=Heuchler;8433152]I don’t think suffering is completely from sin or evil. If that were true why would Christ suffer or why would he say “Greater love hath no man than to die[to suffer] for ones friends”.

Would you please clarify this further? What do you see as the realtionship between suffering and sin?

 

[PJM]

=boastinjesus;8433131]God created a good world without suffering, sin entered the world (and thus suffering), and God is redeeming His creation and promises that one day it will end. Some suffering is a direct result of sin that needs to be repented of, and some is because we are trying to live like Christ in a fallen world and is persecution.

So suffering is a direct of sin?

No sin = no suffering?

 

[PJM]

=Nicea325;8436379]Correct me if I am wrong,but when one is baptized he or she is baptized into the life and death of Jesus? Would it not include suffering?

YES BUT,

Then how does explain suffering of unbelievers?

 

[Heuchler]

Would you please clarify this further? What do you see as the realtionship between suffering and sin?

Well as I said earlier, the only way we attain the highest forms of the virtues is in the face of suffering. Courage is to not run from suffering. Fortitude is to stay strong even when you might suffer for what is right. And the best of Love is found when someone sacrifices (goes through some form of suffering) to show their love. Without sacrificing, there is no love. You have to sacrifice your time to play football with your kid. You have to sacrifice your life to have the greatest love. Suffering is essential if we are to have true love. The option to sacrifice is needed. That doesn’t mean that the suffering of a cancer patient is inherently good, but this can also be good if it is offered up.