What does the church say about " The vessels for destruction"?

[SueKrum]

I’ve got a couple of protestent friends who throw this scripture around to say that some people are made by God to simply be damned;
Romans chapter 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

I tried to do a search of the forrums, but couldn’t find anything. If there is a thread that already discussed this, please tell me where it is. If not, I would like to know what our church says about this, so I can respond to my friends.
thanks

 

[thistle]

I’ve got a couple of protestent friends who throw this scripture around to say that some people are made by God to simply be damned;
Romans chapter 9
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

I tried to do a search of the forrums, but couldn’t find anything. If there is a thread that already discussed this, please tell me where it is. If not, I would like to know what our church says about this, so I can respond to my friends.
thanks

The Church teaches that nobody is predestined to go to Hell.

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

 

[SueKrum]

I realize that the church doesn’t believe that people are damned from birth as the Calvinests do, but what does the church say about this scripture in particular? who does she say “the vessles created for distruction” are? deamons? Does the devil create vessles for distruction? what is the meaning of this scripture passage?

 

[Nita]

I realize that the church doesn’t believe that people are damned from birth as the Calvinests do, but what does the church say about this scripture in particular? who does she say “the vessles created for distruction” are? deamons? Does the devil create vessles for distruction? what is the meaning of this scripture passage?

The Church doesn’t officially define many individual verses.
The verse would probably be included with others to show that there is such a thing as predestination (but the Catholic understanding of predestination differs from Calvin’s).

My way of understanding these verses is as follows:

1. God has established that there will be two eternal abodes for humans. It is “predestined” that the good will go to heaven; that those who persist in evil will go to hell…
   2.God, without violating our free will, knows what we will do with our lives. The full implication of this is that God knows even before we are conceived, what we will choose to do - whether we will choose the good and thus spend eternity with Him in heaven; or whether we will choose evil and spend eternity in hell.
2. Even though He foresees that ,say, a certain individual will make the final choice for evil, God may, for His own reasons, decide to create that soul anyway.
   These are the “vessels of wrath made for destruction”.
3. Deciding to create a soul that God knows will choose evil is not the same thing as making that soul choose evil.
   God doesn’t “make these people to be damned”, He makes them even though He knows they will choose damnation.

I think some who believe in predestination believe that one is predestined to heaven or hell regardless of the choices they make. This is definitely contrary to Church teaching and Scripture. Nowhere does Scripture propose that a person who chooses God and follows His ways can spend eternity in the fires of hell or that a wicked person can spend eternity in heavely bliss. If this is the type of predestination your friends believe in, I would challenge them to show some Scripture support for it.

Nita

 

[Steadfast_love]

Bible throwers? Toss Jeremiah 18 into their tent. That chapter explains that God is a potter with the power to shape clay as he wishes.
NIV :bible1: Jer 18:5-6
Then the word of the LORD came to me: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
He has mercy on the repentant pots…
NIV :bible1: Jer 18:7-8
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.
…and that he takes vengeance on good pots gone bad.
NIV:bible1: Jer18:9-10
And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. So as long as our hearts aren’t set in stone, his announcement’s aren’t set in stone. But what happens when all involved know that the doomed person (Pharaoh :tsktsk: ) will absolutely not repent? NIV :bible1: Jer18:11-12
"Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; each of us will follow the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ "
I have this one cat who just won’t obey. So when I need to “display my power” I plan on Fluffy to be the one to break the rules, get caught and be made an example of for the other cats. She’s kinda like my version of Pharaoh.