What does the Church teach about transgendered people?

[CopticChristian]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

Viv,

As always with Protestants it is best to go to the Greek when trying to understand Scripture…

Concerning your eye…Jesus says You Pluck It Out…and when you go to the Greek it is clear that the word 'You" means as it says below…

su: you (early mod. Eng. thou)
Original Word: σύ, σοῦ, σοί, σέ
Part of Speech: Personal Pronoun
Transliteration: su
Phonetic Spelling: (soo)
Short Definition: you
Definition: you.

Concerning the plucking it is also clear that the plucking is done by the one plucking…

Original Word: ἐξαιρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exaireó
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-ahee-reh’-o)
Short Definition: I remove, choose, rescue
Definition: I take out, remove; sometimes (mid): I choose, sometimes: I rescue.

You can look at it in context in the Greek…so if you want to follow Jesus and do what he tells you “You cut it off”…don’t go asking someone else to do it…only you know it offends you and then you are without guilt. Don’t involve someone else.

interlinearbible.org/matthew/5-29.htm

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since** “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy **which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

Viv,

I can’t find it. Where does the Catechism say that sex change surgery is “sound medical therapy for suicide”?

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

Now since I don’t what is offensive and I pluck out your eye then I am responsible. If you find your eye offensive and you pluck it out I am am innocent. Since sin is a personal act I cannot cooperate in plucking out your eye for I don’t know for sure what you think and believe and if I assume I do and pluck it out and you go blind and you tell me “hey man I was sayin that maybe it was sinful to look and now I am 1/2 blind because of you”…that means that only you can dismember yourself…I cannot participate, I cannot advise, I cannot praise, I cannot approve…I cannot hinder…and if and when you feel that your genitals are offensive and you want to dismember yourself, all I can do is say "hey…you find it offensive…you find it sinful…thankfully I was not part of that’…now that is what the Catechism teaches.

I ain’t about to go plucking and dismembering anyone lessin they believe that soma how I is not in my right mind and I is…

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;

• by protecting evil-doers.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

Viv,

And since John Chrysosotom has explained it better than I, see what he has to say and how it fits your paradigm

If your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you.

Thus, lest you should say, But what if she be akin to me? What if in any other way she belong to me? therefore He has given these injunctions; not discoursing about our limbs—far from it—for nowhere does He say that our flesh is to be blamed for things, but **everywhere it is the evil mind that is accused. **For it is not the eye that sees, but the **mind and the thought. **Often, for instance, we being wholly turned elsewhere, our eye sees not those who are present. So that the matter does not entirely depend upon its working. Again, had He been speaking of members of the body, He would not have said it of one eye, nor of the right eye only, but of both. For he who is offended by his right eye, most evidently will incur the same evil by his left also. Why then did He mention the right eye, and add the hand? To show you that not of limbs is He speaking, but of them who are near unto us. Thus, If, says He, you so lovest any one, as though he were in stead of a right eye; if you think him so profitable to you as to esteem him in the place of a hand, and he hurts your soul; cut off even these. And see the emphasis; for He says not, Withdraw from him, but to show the fullness of the separation, pluck it out, says He, and cast it from you.

Then, forasmuch as His injunction was sharp, He shows also the gain on either hand, both from the benefits and from the evils, continuing in the metaphor.

For it is profitable for you, says He, that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

For while he neither saves himself, nor fails to destroy you too, what kindness is it for both to sink, whereas if they were separated, one at least might have been preserved?

But why did Paul then, it may be said, choose to become accursed? Romans 9:3 Not on condition of gaining nothing, but with a view to the salvation of others. But in this case the mischief pertains to both. And therefore He said not, pluck out only, but also cast from you: to receive him again no more, if he continue as he is. For so shall you both deliver him from a heavier charge, and free yourself from ruin.

But that you may see yet more clearly the profit of this law; let us, if you please, try what has been said, in the case of the body itself, by way of supposition. **I mean, if choice were given, and you must either, keeping your eye, be cast into a pit and perish, or plucking it out, preserve the rest of your body; would you not of course accept the latter? **It is plain to everyone. For this were not to act as one hating the eye, but as one loving the rest of the body. This same reckoning do thou make with regard to men also and women: that if he who harms you by his friendship should continue incurable, his being thus cut off will both free you from all mischief, and he also will himself be delivered from the heavier charges, not having to answer for your destruction along with his own evil deeds.

Do you see how full the law is of gentleness and tender care, and that which seems to men in general to be severity, how much love towards man it discloses?

Let them hearken to these things, who hasten to the theatres, and make themselves adulterers every day. For if the law commands to cut off him, whose connection with us tends to our hurt; what plea can they have, who, by their haunting those places, attract towards them daily those even that have not yet become known to them, and procure to themselves occasions of ruin without number?

For henceforth, He not only forbids us to look unchastely, but having signified the mischief thence ensuing, He even straitens the law as He goes on, commanding to cut off, and dissever, and cast somewhere far away. And all this He ordains, who has uttered words beyond number about love, that in either way you might learn His providence, and how from every source He seeks your profit.

Get back to me after you study Scripture, Tradition and the Catechism more fully.

 

[Viviphilia]

I have cared for people that have castrated themselves and authored a paper on that subject. Those that entertain self castration were in my research mentally unstable.

Hi Cop,

Oh really? I would like to read the paper on self-castration which you claim to have authored. Please provide the citation, and not excuses. Thanks.

• V

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

religioustolerance.org/transsexu15.htm

Is there any wiggle room that would allow a Catholic to undergo SRS?
If one accepts the teaching of the church that sex reassignment surgery (SRS) and hormone treatments distort the God-designed and God-created human body to the extent that it is a very serious sin, one might ask if there are extenuating circumstances which would make the procedures acceptable to the church.

There is a widespread belief called the “50% Rule:” that 50% of all transsexuals die before the age of 30, usually by suicide. This was apparently true decades ago when SRS was generally unavailable. It is presumably much lower today since SRS has become more widely available, and are close to 100% successful in their goal of minimizing GID.

In most ethical systems, an act that is sinful by itself can sometimes be justified if it results in a greater good. For example, during pregnancy situations can arise where an abortion is needed to prevent the death of the woman. If no abortion is performed, both the fetus and the woman will die. Faced with the alternatives of one death or two, most ethical systems would consider the abortion very regrettable, but morally justified.

**In the case of transsexuals, one could argue that to make SRS unavailable would significantly increase the number of suicides within that population. Assuming that the incidence of transsexuals is 1 in every 5,000, they total perhaps 60,000 in the U.S. For every 100 SRS procedures performed, the lives of perhaps 25 transsexuals could be saved from suicide. Could those 25 lives saved outweigh what the Catholic Church would consider the sin of 100 SRS procedures?

The answer is no. **A prime directive of Catholic moral teaching is that one cannot morally commit an evil act even if the end result would be a major benefit. In the previously cited case of a pregnancy gone bad, no abortion is morally possible. The physician can only provide comfort care and pray for a miracle. Both the woman and fetus must die. In the case of transsexuals, no SRS procedure is permissible, even if one life might be saved for every four procedures performed.
Fortunately, the Church offers a way to resolve this dilemma: confession. A transsexual might elect to undergo SRS, and later confess their sin to a priest with genuine sorrow during the sacrament of penance. They could promise to not undergo any further reassignment surgery, and receive absolution.

Unfortunately, this path might not allow continuation of hormone treatments, which we assume the Church also considers a sin. That is because one of the principles of confession is the person’s intent to not repeat the sin in the future.

Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 3

8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

Here is Augustine a doctor of the Church’s take

Aug., Serm. in Mont., i, 13: As the eye denotes contemplation, so the hand aptly denotes action. By the eye we must understand our most cherished friend, as they are wont to say who would express ardent affection, ‘I love him as my own eye.’ And a friend too who gives counsel, as the eye shews us our way. The “right eye,” perhaps, only means to express a higher degree of affection, for it is the one which men most fear to lose.
Or, by the right eye may be understood one who counsels us in heavenly matters, and by the left one who counsels in earthly matters. And this will be the sense; Whatever that is which you love as you would your own right eye, if it “offend you,” that is, if it be an hindrance to your true happiness, “cut it off and cast it from you.” For if the right eye was not to be spared, it was superfluous to speak of the left. The right hand also is to be taken of a beloved assistant in divine actions, the left hand in earthly actions.

The Church does not condone mutilation of properly function body parts.

What you are doing is known as eisegesis.

 

[thistle]

Hi Dakota,

Suicidality caused by gender dissonance is certainly a life- threatening condition. I’m not sure where you got that idea about “severe emotional discomfort,” or even what that means. Christ makes it crystal clear in Matthew 5 that a body part which is causing a person to sin should be removed to save the soul of the person. The Catechism supports the direction in Matthew 5 since “sex change surgery” is a sound medical therapy which resolves gender dissonance. And finally, the Catechism makes it clear that by not disclosing the instructions of Matthew 5 to a suicidal transsexual, a Catholic might be guilty of contributing to the sin of suicide in another person.

Please come back when you have an argument based on the Bible and the Catechism.

• V

What you say is totally untrue. Surgery to change a person’s sex (which it doesn’t anyway) is a sin of grave matter. It is NOT approved by the Church.

 

[mytruepower2]

Hi everyone. I have been putting off posting this for a while but I have finally decided to post it because I really want to know. Anyway, I was at a local gas station recently and there was this person there who told me that they are transgendered and that they are getting sex change surgery. I couldn’t tell what their biological gender is because they do not have a distinctly masculine or feminine appearance/persona. All I know is that this person is getting a sex change. Well, I told this person that I am a devout Catholic and that I do not agree with sex changes and things like that. This person acted really offended even though I did tell them that I was not preaching at them. I hope I wasn’t uncharitable toward them simply by stating that I disagree with what they are doing.

So anyway, I am just wondering, what does the Church teach about transgendered people? From what I understand, transgendered people suffer from a mental illness known as gender identity disorder but that’s all I know. I am pretty sure that the Church considers sex change operations to be immoral but this is what I don’t understand. This person told me that they are so uncomfortable with themselves that they have been suicidal in the past because of this. This person seemed to think that getting a sex change surgery would take away a lot of their depression over the issue. So, that leads me to wonder: would the Church be okay with sex change surgery as a treatment for gender identity disorder in serious situations such as this?

Well, yes. You could definitely call it a mental illness. I think the word usually used by church documents for this sort of thing is “disordered.” The mutilation of one’s body for a mentally-disturbed reason is clearly sinful, and I would think, would fall into the same category as self-castration, for which one of the early Fathers of the Church was denounced.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, yes. You could definitely call it a mental illness. I think the word usually used by church documents for this sort of thing is “disordered.” The mutilation of one’s body for a mentally-disturbed reason is clearly sinful, and I would think, would fall into the same category as self-castration, for which one of the early Fathers of the Church was denounced.

True,

Here is part of the problem. The American Psychiatric Association and the DSM are part of the problem. The credibility of the APA is zero in my opinion. Homosexuality was once a disease and now it is not. The LGBT population is now being reworded in the DSM. So years ago they were disordered and now they are not. Does this change anything? Yes, the activists will point to this and say “we are not disordered, see”…but then the answer is, who listens to an organization with changing criteria and for what reason.

gsaneo.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/2833807-dsm-v-proposed-changes-will-impact-trans-issues-

The first, and GREATEST change, here, is the removing of stigmatizing language. Instead of Gender Identity Disorder, it will (hopefully) now be termed “Gender Incongruence” (GI). This change will be consistent at all levels of GID.

The DSM is not a reference book for point of view and that is what it is being used for. The arguments will be “we are not disordered, we are incongruent” have you not read the DSM…and the lack of credibility should be pointed to.

The OHCAC says sin is sin…and it does not change this…this is what the Church teaches and that is what it will be…it will not change.