What does the Church think about facism, communism, anarchy, and socialism?

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Exsilium said:
  1. Your forgetting though anarchism is also a political process and there have been anarchist in the church. So its not strongly discouraged like communism.
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Like who?
Exsilium said:
2.The gentiles have rulers over them, but it shall not be so among Christians (Mark 10:42-45).
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Do you claim the Church interprets this as a call for anarchy?😛
Exsilium said:
Christians struggle against governments, rulers, and spiritual wickedness (Ephesians 6:12)
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Do you claim the Church interprets this as a call for anarchy?😛
Exsilium said:
To seek rule by man is to reject the rule of God (1 Samuel 8)
Do you claim the Church interprets this as a call for anarchy?😛
Exsilium;2592234:
As ive said when you base your life on the laws and teachings of god that is way different from the laws of man. To think men truly know right and wrong is blasphemous. Only god does so by submiting yourself to any other law is against him. Also once again the church and state are different. Our kingdom and all of the churches is not of this world.
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Yet we live in the world – and we are commanded to live in it.
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vern_humphrey said:
Like who?

Do you claim the Church interprets this as a call for anarchy?😛

Do you claim the Church interprets this as a call for anarchy?😛
Exsilium;2592234:
To seek rule by man is to reject the rule of God (1 Samuel 8)
Do you claim the Church interprets this as a call for anarchy?😛

Yet we live in the world – and we are commanded to live in it.
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1.Peter Maurin, Amman Hennacy,Dorothy Day, Thomas Merton, Léonce Crenier , Philip Berrigan,Ivan Illich, Daniel Berrigan, Thomas J. Hagerty John Seymour, and E.F. Schumacher.

2.Its a call to follow only one authority God.

3.Christians struggling against government,rulers and spiritual wickedness. Yes its pretty much describes it.

4.It means what it says.
  1. Jesus was in this world as well. Dosnt mean he abided by its worldly system. Remember his kingdom is not of this world.
The devil controls man-made governments (Matthew 4:8-10).

Would he abide by the devils control? Why should we as Christians abide then? Did the devil not offer jesus all the kingdoms of the world. So the question is this do you believe your kingdom is of this world or of heaven?
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Ammon Hennacy(a catholic) defined Christian anarchism as:

“…being based upon the answer of Jesus to the Pharisees when Jesus said that he without sin should be the first to cast the stone, and upon the Sermon on the Mount which advises the return of good for evil and the turning of the other cheek. Therefore, when we take any part in government by voting for legislative, judicial, and executive officials, we make these men our arm by which we cast a stone and deny the Sermon on the Mount.
The dictionary definition of a Christian is one who follows Christ; kind, kindly, Christ-like. Anarchism is voluntary cooperation for good, with the right of secession. A Christian anarchist is therefore one who turns the other cheek, overturns the tables of the moneychangers, and does not need a cop to tell him how to behave. A Christian anarchist does not depend upon bullets or ballots to achieve his ideal; he achieves that ideal daily by the One-Man Revolution with which he faces a decadent, confused, and dying world”
 
Exsilium said:
1.Peter Maurin, Amman Hennacy,Dorothy Day, Thomas Merton, Léonce Crenier , Philip Berrigan,Ivan Illich, Daniel Berrigan, Thomas J. Hagerty John Seymour, and E.F. Schumacher.
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Not exactly a pantheon of role models.😃
Exsilium said:
2.Its a call to follow only one authority God.
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And to obey lawfully constituted secular authority. We are only to disobey when laws are morally unacceptable.
Exsilium said:
3.Christians struggling against government,rulers and spiritual wickedness. Yes its pretty much describes it.
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So we are called upon to disobey the government?
Exsilium said:
4.It means what it says.
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And not what you say it means.
Exsilium said:
  1. Jesus was in this world as well. Dosnt mean he abided by its worldly system. Remember his kingdom is not of this world.
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Actually, He did. To the point of submitting to the death penalty.
Exsilium said:
The devil controls man-made governments (Matthew 4:8-10).
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Well the Democrats presently control the House and Senate.😛
Exsilium said:
Would he abide by the devils control? Why should we as Christians abide then? Did the devil not offer jesus all the kingdoms of the world. So the question is this do you believe your kingdom is of this world or of heaven?
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No, the question is do I believe in tghe kingdom of heaven and the Catholic Church, or do I believe in you.

No contest.😛
 
vern_humphrey said:
Not exactly a pantheon of role models.😃

And to obey lawfully constituted secular authority. We are only to disobey when laws are morally unacceptable.

So we are called upon to disobey the government?

And not what you say it means.

Actually, He did. To the point of submitting to the death penalty.

Well the Democrats presently control the House and Senate.😛

No, the question is do I believe in tghe kingdom of heaven and the Catholic Church, or do I believe in you.

No contest.😛
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1.3/4 of them feed the poor and shelter the hungry. A few are priest some monks. So yes they are.
  1. We follow what god’s rule is.
  2. Nope it just means we struggle against the unjust rulers of the world and the spiritually wrong.
  3. No it means if you put a man in a position that he judges right and wrong for you then you deny god. Read Samuel
Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “You are old and your sons do not follow in your ways; appoint for us, then, a king to govern us, like other nations.” But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to govern us.” Samuel prayed to the Lord, and the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. Just as they have done to me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so also they are doing to you. Now then, listen to their voice; only-you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.” (1 Samuel 8:4-9)
  1. Jesus readily proclaimed to pontius that he had no power over him. Basically saying it is not by you or your authority that I am crucified but by me alone. For only I have power to take my own life as he states. By taking his life pontius kept order in his government state in jerusalem. Is that right? Jesus went willingly to the cross yes but not submitting. He was in control the whole time.
The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.” When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer.

“Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
  1. Democrat or republican it dosnt matter. Both are under the same system.
  2. Well ive presented the scripture and the explanation as given by the lord. So its either believe him or believe whatever you seem to want. Reject earthly authoritys and become the suffering christian exile from the kingdom of heaven.
 
Btw read my post on the definition of it do you object to any of it?
 
Exsilium said:
  1. Well ive presented the scripture and the explanation as given by the lord. So its either believe him or believe whatever you seem to want.
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I’ll believe Him rather than you.

You seem committed to something – further discussion on this thread would be pointless.
 
vern_humphrey said:
I’ll believe Him rather than you.

You seem committed to something – further discussion on this thread would be pointless.
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Good choice I believe the lord to. Alright we can end it here if you wish.

My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36)
We are to obey God rather than men (Acts 5:29)
To seek rule by man is to reject the rule of God (1 Samuel 8)
Christians struggle against governments, rulers, and spiritual wickedness (Ephesians 6:12)
Honest people are too busy making an honest living to accept political power, so only the corruptible will accept political power (Judges 9:7-15 The Parable of the Trees)
The devil controls man-made governments (Matthew 4:8-10).
The gentiles have rulers over them, but it shall not be so among Christians (Mark 10:42-45). (Notice that the word for rulers here in the Greek is archos. Therefore some say Christians are by simple deduction an-archos or in English anarchists).
He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. Luke 1:52-52
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.1 Corinthians 15:24-25
 
As has already been pointed out, the Church has condemned Fascism, which infringes on man’s God-given liberties, Liberalism, which asserts liberties man does not have and denies obligations towards God in the civil sphere, Communism, which is atheistic and lowers the dignity of man to an ecomonic tool, materialistic Capitalism, which has the same fundamental errors as Communism, and Socialism, which denies man certain rights given by God and gives the state too many rights.

As for anarchism, this is also condemned, as it is God who has ordained civil goverment and civil goverments govern with authority from God. Here are two good encyclicals on this subject:

Leo XIII, Diuturnum (On the Origin of Civil Power) June 29, 1881
Gregory XVI, Cum Primum (On Civil Obedience) June 9, 1832
 
Genesis315 said:
As has already been pointed out, the Church has condemned Fascism, which infringes on man’s God-given liberties, Liberalism, which asserts liberties man does not have and denies obligations towards God in the civil sphere, Communism, which is atheistic and lowers the dignity of man to an ecomonic tool, materialistic Capitalism, which has the same fundamental errors as Communism, and Socialism, which denies man certain rights given by God and gives the state too many rights.

As for anarchism, this is also condemned, as it is God who has ordained civil goverment and civil goverments govern with authority from God. Here are two good encyclicals on this subject:

Leo XIII, Diuturnum (On the Origin of Civil Power) June 29, 1881
Gregory XVI, Cum Primum (On Civil Obedience) June 9, 1832
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Given that, how can a Catholic deny we have a duty to obey the laws as long as they do not violate Catholic morality?
 
If it was actually outlawed within the church then the people ive listed would have been excomunnicated. Many of them were monks some priest. A few have been reccommended for saint hood.

“The dictionary definition of a Christian is one who follows Christ; kind, kindly, Christ-like. Anarchism is voluntary cooperation for good, with the right of secession. A Christian anarchist is therefore one who turns the other cheek, overturns the tables of the moneychangers, and does not need a cop to tell him how to behave. A Christian anarchist does not depend upon bullets or ballots to achieve his ideal; he achieves that ideal daily by the One-Man Revolution with which he faces a decadent, confused, and dying world”

Is there anything wrong with that?
 
“But now, a society can neither exist nor be conceived in which there is no one to govern the wills of individuals, in such a way as to make, as it were, one will out of many, and to impell them rightly and orderly to the common good; therefore God has willed that in a civil society there should be some to rule the multitude. . . . But no man has in himself or of himself the power of constraining the free will of others by fetters of authority of this kind. This power resides solely in God, the Creator and Legislator of all things; and it is necessary that those who exercise it should do it as having received it from God.”

Why cant the church rule rather than the state? Christian anarchism has no problem with this.
 
melensdad said:
___ ____ is a Libertarian who runs for Congress under the Republican party.

He is a “Constitutionalist” and when he votes he votes from the standpoint of the Constitution, not religion, or fads or the way the wind blows.
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Just like Southern Baptists do just what’s in the bible.

John Locke, The Second Treatise of Government,
  1. …Wherever, therefore, any number of men so unite into one society as to quit every one his executive power of the law of Nature, and to resign it to the public, there and there only is a political or civil society…
94…No man in civil society can be exempted from the laws of it. For if any man may do what he thinks fit and there be no appeal on earth for redress or security against any harm he shall do, I ask whether he be not perfectly still in the state of Nature, and so can be no part or member of that civil society, unless any one will say the state of Nature and civil society are one and the same thing, which I have never yet found any one so great a patron of anarchy as to affirm.
 
Silence_DoGood said:
Just like Southern Baptists do just what’s in the bible.

John Locke, The Second Treatise of Government,
  1. …Wherever, therefore, any number of men so unite into one society as to quit every one his executive power of the law of Nature, and to resign it to the public, there and there only is a political or civil society…
94…No man in civil society can be exempted from the laws of it. For if any man may do what he thinks fit and there be no appeal on earth for redress or security against any harm he shall do, I ask whether he be not perfectly still in the state of Nature, and so can be no part or member of that civil society, unless any one will say the state of Nature and civil society are one and the same thing, which I have never yet found any one so great a patron of anarchy as to affirm.
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Or as Hobbes said in response to Russeau’s concept of the “Noble Savage,” “The life of man in a state of nature is nasty, brutish and short.”
 
Well im gonna end my part in this thread here. Ive got alot of work to do in the next week or so. Anyways id just like to leave the thread once again pointing out that many in the church have been anarchist. I would post a letter from a more recent pope then leo speaking of political change in a positive way that one can even be a socialist but until another time really.
 
This area is sensitive in that all give praise to government but keep a tight leash on its communities status. They try to build up people ideas that they do not need a supernatural envo to fill there lives. You can not be for God and the world as one in the same it has to be one or the other.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Given that, how can a Catholic deny we have a duty to obey the laws as long as they do not violate Catholic morality?
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I don’t think they can–I think this has the most Magisterial support as well as that from the most saints and doctors of the Church. However, Bl. John Duns Scotus and some others argue that we can break civil laws under two additional conditions–we ar ewilling to suffer the consequence (the risk of getting arrested, paying a fine, etc.) or we are not violating the spirit of the law (e.g. jaywalking laws are for traffic safety and you can see for miles down the road and there are no cars, so you can “jaywalk”).
 
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