M
MiserereMei25
Guest
I do think it’s a nice prayer. But I never know what the part “as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, a world without end” means.
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V
Vico
Guest
The phrase per saecula saeculorum in Latin means unto the ages of ages, or without any measure of time.
C
Cor_ad_Cor
Guest
The entire prayer is an echoing of this verse: Psalm 113:2, “May His name be praised, now and forever.”
A
adgloriam
Guest
Normally “pelos séculos dos séculos” or “centuries of the centuries”.
V
Vico
Guest
Are you Portuguese?
A
adgloriam
Guest
Yes I am European Portuguese (thus not Brazilian). And, apparently, the first Portuguese you have met. Although, I’m sorry if I haven’t always manage to make the best impression - any fault is mine alone.
You you are the first Byzantine Catholic I have met, and certainly a good impression you have made
God bless.
You you are the first Byzantine Catholic I have met, and certainly a good impression you have made
God bless.
J
JohnLilburne
Guest
The Glory be to the Father is in the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church , Appendix A, Common Prayers. The Latin text is:
Glória Patri
et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper
et in sæ’cula sæculórum. Amen.
[English translation (c) 2005 Australian Catholic Bishops Conference/St Pauls Publications, isbn 1921032227, page 180].
In the Divine Office it is:
Glory be the the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.*
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
{The Divine Office, Volume 1, 1974, reprinted 1996, isbn 005995019, page [11]}
The Introduction to the The Simple Gradual has:
“15. … The verses for the entrance and communion antiphon conclude with Gloria parti and Sicut erat , combined to make up one whole verse, as is indicated in the text where the common tones are found.”
[Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, (c) 1982, Liturgical Press, ISBN 0814612814, page 1342.]
In the English translation of this book, which has “Concordat cum original; John Humphreys, Secretary of National Liturgical Commission of England and Wales, 20 December, 1968” there are various versions of it. These are from “The Simple Gradual for Sundays and Holy Days Revised Edition, published by Geoffrey Chapman Ltd, First published May 1969, Reprinted with amendments April 1970, reprinted August 1970, edited by John Ainslie. I am quoting the words, without including symbols used for singing them:
“Give praise to the Father Almighty,
to his Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord,
to the Spirit who dwells in our hearts,
both now and forever. Amen.”
(page 1)
“To the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit
give praise for ever. Amen.”
(page 4)
“Give praise to the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit
both now and for ages unending. Amen.”
(page 5)
“Praise the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit
both now and for ever,
the God who is, who was, and is to come
at the end of time.”
(page 20)
“Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit
both now and for ever:
the God who is and was,
who will come at the end of time.”
(page 27)
“Praise the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit
for ever and ever.”
(page 35)
In “Prayers Against the Powers of Darkness” (isbn 9781601375674) page 10 there is the first part, without the second part:
“GLORY BE to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.”
[Excerpts from the English translation of Exorcisms and Related Supplications , copyright (c) 2014, International Commission on English in the Liturgy Corporation, Washington, DC. Excerpts from the English translation of The Liturgy of the Hours © 1974, ICEL. Excerpts from the English translation of The Simple Gradual © 1969 (?), ICEL; All rights reserved.]
Glória Patri
et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper
et in sæ’cula sæculórum. Amen.
[English translation (c) 2005 Australian Catholic Bishops Conference/St Pauls Publications, isbn 1921032227, page 180].
In the Divine Office it is:
Glory be the the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.*
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
{The Divine Office, Volume 1, 1974, reprinted 1996, isbn 005995019, page [11]}
The Introduction to the The Simple Gradual has:
“15. … The verses for the entrance and communion antiphon conclude with Gloria parti and Sicut erat , combined to make up one whole verse, as is indicated in the text where the common tones are found.”
[Documents on the Liturgy 1963-1979, (c) 1982, Liturgical Press, ISBN 0814612814, page 1342.]
In the English translation of this book, which has “Concordat cum original; John Humphreys, Secretary of National Liturgical Commission of England and Wales, 20 December, 1968” there are various versions of it. These are from “The Simple Gradual for Sundays and Holy Days Revised Edition, published by Geoffrey Chapman Ltd, First published May 1969, Reprinted with amendments April 1970, reprinted August 1970, edited by John Ainslie. I am quoting the words, without including symbols used for singing them:
“Give praise to the Father Almighty,
to his Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord,
to the Spirit who dwells in our hearts,
both now and forever. Amen.”
(page 1)
“To the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit
give praise for ever. Amen.”
(page 4)
“Give praise to the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit
both now and for ages unending. Amen.”
(page 5)
“Praise the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit
both now and for ever,
the God who is, who was, and is to come
at the end of time.”
(page 20)
“Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit
both now and for ever:
the God who is and was,
who will come at the end of time.”
(page 27)
“Praise the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit
for ever and ever.”
(page 35)
In “Prayers Against the Powers of Darkness” (isbn 9781601375674) page 10 there is the first part, without the second part:
“GLORY BE to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.”
[Excerpts from the English translation of Exorcisms and Related Supplications , copyright (c) 2014, International Commission on English in the Liturgy Corporation, Washington, DC. Excerpts from the English translation of The Liturgy of the Hours © 1974, ICEL. Excerpts from the English translation of The Simple Gradual © 1969 (?), ICEL; All rights reserved.]
V
Vico
Guest
I believe that you are a very good person.Yes I am European Portuguese (thus not Brazilian). And, apparently, the first Portuguese you have met. Although, I’m sorry if I haven’t always manage to make the best impression - any fault is mine alone.
You you are the first Byzantine Catholic I have met, and certainly a good impression you have made
God bless.
There is one person at my Byzantine parish that is Portuguese. The accent when speaking English is so great that I have difficulty understanding the words.
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A
adgloriam
Guest
There’s actually a very sizeable Portuguese community in Newark, New Jersey - I have several friends there.
But as the saying goes in our Diaspora:“There is always one Portuguese everywhere.” So you confirm exactly that
!!! Both in your Byzantine parish and now here on CAF, hahahaha !!!Normally the Portuguese are very language savvy, because our language is of latin origin and developed to accommodate many loan words. Apparently, one of the most inflected languages in the world. The lady with the heavy accent is probably a recent immigrant or a person of modest origin.
I find the Byzantine Catholics very intriguing, unspeakably intriguing
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adgloriam
Guest
It means before God created the universe only He existed, because only He needed to exist.
And so it is now.
Heaven and Earth will pass, still God will remain eternally, as it was in the beginning, as it is now.
W
Wm777
Guest
The English is off from the Latin. To boot, I’m not really sure what language it was originally written in (Greek or Hebrew), but too many interpretative/semantic arguments on such a simple prayer would be absurd and should be avoided. It’s better to use basic terms as keywords to link to the bigger picture the prayer represents.
There’s really just three parts to remember: 1.) what Glory means, 2.) what the Trinity is, and 3.) that God is eternal.
Here’s how I understand each.
1.) The Glory of God, who is Love, who is our Creator, and our Merciful Redeemer, and who is all Goodness itself, is basically self-sustaining, but - in a human sense - it’s when we return all credit for creating us, providing for us, redeeming us and sustaining us. Thus, to God is due all Love, Honor, Thanks, and Praise, and - when mankind fulfills these obligations - we see the Glory of God. Of course, if we sinned, and he wiped us out, it would be an expression of his Almighty power - but it would be more of a tragedy… Through Jesus - God isn’t out to judge us, defeat us or destroy us - as all of that would be contrary to His eternally loving, creative and providential nature, so there would likely be little glory in such a hollow victory as merely wiping out a bunch of weak sinners. He could do it, but His glory seems based upon providing for overcoming obstacles and impediments, rather than just his ability to create, destroy or even deny them. In any case, no human can fully give God the credit He is due, so - we all fall short - best to keep saying this prayer for the rest of eternity now…
2.) As for the Trinity, it’s a mystery no one can fully fathom - you know what it is, you know that it is a mystery… so, now, keep thinking about it for eternity in light of everything stated in #1… One helpful note on contemplating the Trinity is, you have to remember the Trinity is a relationship between the natures of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so - I think - when you contemplate the Trinitarian nature of God, you might perceive various aspects of their Triune relationship, which can perhaps suggest new and interesting ways of of glorifying God…
3.) The last part is poorly translated into English, I think. It’s too ambiguous. What I mean is, since the term “worldly” is homonymous with “world” in the wording of the phrase “world without end”, it is confusing. Worldy things are transient, and the objection to worldly things usually seems to mean to avoid going off on a temporary and futile tangent, which you may later regret. On the other hand, what the prayer means in Latin (“secula seculorum”) is that the Glory of God - Who is the Eternal Truth behind all Creation - whether on earth or in Heaven - perhaps like the ideal Jerusalem - is to be forever and always due whatever Glory we can muster up… because it exists eternally itself as Love, Glory, Justice, and, thus, it’s infinite sustainability not only provides for us - but the return Glorifies God in its own right. So give to God the glory of what is eternally true in your perceptions of the relationship of the Trinity with itself forever and ever.
There’s really just three parts to remember: 1.) what Glory means, 2.) what the Trinity is, and 3.) that God is eternal.
Here’s how I understand each.
1.) The Glory of God, who is Love, who is our Creator, and our Merciful Redeemer, and who is all Goodness itself, is basically self-sustaining, but - in a human sense - it’s when we return all credit for creating us, providing for us, redeeming us and sustaining us. Thus, to God is due all Love, Honor, Thanks, and Praise, and - when mankind fulfills these obligations - we see the Glory of God. Of course, if we sinned, and he wiped us out, it would be an expression of his Almighty power - but it would be more of a tragedy… Through Jesus - God isn’t out to judge us, defeat us or destroy us - as all of that would be contrary to His eternally loving, creative and providential nature, so there would likely be little glory in such a hollow victory as merely wiping out a bunch of weak sinners. He could do it, but His glory seems based upon providing for overcoming obstacles and impediments, rather than just his ability to create, destroy or even deny them. In any case, no human can fully give God the credit He is due, so - we all fall short - best to keep saying this prayer for the rest of eternity now…
2.) As for the Trinity, it’s a mystery no one can fully fathom - you know what it is, you know that it is a mystery… so, now, keep thinking about it for eternity in light of everything stated in #1… One helpful note on contemplating the Trinity is, you have to remember the Trinity is a relationship between the natures of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so - I think - when you contemplate the Trinitarian nature of God, you might perceive various aspects of their Triune relationship, which can perhaps suggest new and interesting ways of of glorifying God…
3.) The last part is poorly translated into English, I think. It’s too ambiguous. What I mean is, since the term “worldly” is homonymous with “world” in the wording of the phrase “world without end”, it is confusing. Worldy things are transient, and the objection to worldly things usually seems to mean to avoid going off on a temporary and futile tangent, which you may later regret. On the other hand, what the prayer means in Latin (“secula seculorum”) is that the Glory of God - Who is the Eternal Truth behind all Creation - whether on earth or in Heaven - perhaps like the ideal Jerusalem - is to be forever and always due whatever Glory we can muster up… because it exists eternally itself as Love, Glory, Justice, and, thus, it’s infinite sustainability not only provides for us - but the return Glorifies God in its own right. So give to God the glory of what is eternally true in your perceptions of the relationship of the Trinity with itself forever and ever.
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C
Cor_ad_Cor
Guest
Also, the way the prayer is written in the current (U.S.) English of the Liturgy of the Hours is (I think) a little easier and more fluid:
“Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit:
as it was in the beginning, is now,
and will be for ever. Amen.”
“Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit:
as it was in the beginning, is now,
and will be for ever. Amen.”
M
MiserereMei25
Guest
That translation makes sense to me. But World without end is confusing.
T
TheLittleLady
Guest
It is a prayer of praise, true worship. Giving glory to the Triune God, proclaiming their eternal glory and power and acknowledging the same.
J
JohnLilburne
Guest
Msgr James D. Crichton was critical of the prayer being included in the Liturgy of the Hours:
“It is true I think that it has become so much ‘stuffing’ and we do not seem to have missed its absence in the responsorial psalm of the Mass. It is to be regretted that the older form ‘Glory be to the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit’, which was still current in the time of St. Basil, gave way to the present form which is a relic (so old!) of the anti-Arian campaign of the fourth century. The older form would certainly remind us that always we are praying through Christ to the Father and in the Holy Spirit.”
[Understanding the Prayer of the Church, Geoffrey Chapman, (c) 1976, 1993, isbn 0225666715, page 103.]
“It is true I think that it has become so much ‘stuffing’ and we do not seem to have missed its absence in the responsorial psalm of the Mass. It is to be regretted that the older form ‘Glory be to the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit’, which was still current in the time of St. Basil, gave way to the present form which is a relic (so old!) of the anti-Arian campaign of the fourth century. The older form would certainly remind us that always we are praying through Christ to the Father and in the Holy Spirit.”
[Understanding the Prayer of the Church, Geoffrey Chapman, (c) 1976, 1993, isbn 0225666715, page 103.]
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