What Does the Pope Say About Female Servers?

[kyria]

so know that when your daughter is up there that she may very well be taking away from some boy that God is calling to be a priest but is lacking in the desire due to lack of participation.

Nothing at all stopping boys from alter serving. She wasn’t taking any boys position. There didn’t appear to be enough boys putting up their hands, so what is wrong if she did?

If you feel the way to go with your daughter is the TLM and wearing lace on your heads go for it, I like the type of mass we attend and I am in no way raising my daughter that she needs to wear lace on her head as a way of showing humility and that is the best way for her to serve Christ.

 

[kyria]

I There are plenty of other things your daughter could do to serve the church, without taking on a traditionally male role.

Such as what? People occasionally make this comment but fail to back it up with suggestions. So far all I’ve heard is sitting in the pew with lace on one’s head. What parts of the mass give a girl an opportunity to serve Christ? please don’t come back with she can help me bake cookies for the Church stall.

What opportunities are there now to asist her to be a leader later on? because she is a leader, and women can lead others as they follow Christ. Youth Ministry for example is not just for boys and so I want her to feel like she can contribute and serve now, so that later on she might feel encouraged to do something with her leadership skills later on. So that she is interested and willing to serve the Church in another capacity when she is older.

One of the boys had no issue about serving with her and her with him. Being a girl didn’t put boys off. Her brother pulled out but at least she kept going and finished her year.

If we attended a TLM then she wouldn’t have served. But the mass we attend allows it and I am glad it gave her an opportunity now to prepare her for later on.

 

[ebacherk]

In short, I have to say that the allowance of females to serve at the altar has been disastrous to the faith of many. It seems to offer false hope to some that women will be validly ordained - something which can never happen. In many parishes, the number of boys and men serving the priest at Holy Mass has dropped severely, in part, because of the presence of girls and women in the sanctuary - something which is totally contrary to the Holy Sacrifice of The Mas and Its’ Mosaic origins as recorded in the Old Testament/Old Covenant of the books of The Bible. What has been allowed by any bishop, should be immediately and permanently repealed!

 

[savienu]

Such as what? People occasionally make this comment but fail to back it up with suggestions. So far all I’ve heard is sitting in the pew with lace on one’s head. What parts of the mass give a girl an opportunity to serve Christ? please don’t come back with she can help me bake cookies for the Church stall.

What opportunities are there now to asist her to be a leader later on? because she is a leader, and women can lead others as they follow Christ. Youth Ministry for example is not just for boys and so I want her to feel like she can contribute and serve now, so that later on she might feel encouraged to do something with her leadership skills later on. So that she is interested and willing to serve the Church in another capacity when she is older.

One of the boys had no issue about serving with her and her with him. Being a girl didn’t put boys off. Her brother pulled out but at least she kept going and finished her year.

If we attended a TLM then she wouldn’t have served. But the mass we attend allows it and I am glad it gave her an opportunity now to prepare her for later on.

Clearly you and I have different ideas about gender roles. She doesn’t need to be a leader to be important and to serve the Lord. Nuns aren’t leaders in the Church. A woman’s primary role is motherhood- physical or spiritual. Why not raise her to be a mother? Please don’t be offended by this, but I am genuinely wondering why you are spending time in the traditional catholicism forum if you are not interested in traditional catholicism.

 

[tina23]

Pope Benedict XIV explicitly condemned females serving the priest at the altar with the following words:

"Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21."[2]

A female person may not minister. An exception is permitted only when no male person is available and if a just cause is present. The female person may not, however, approach the altar under any circumstances, and may only respond from afar’. (Canon 813/2).

1980 Pope John Paul II stipulated in an instruction entitled ‘The Inestimable Gift’ that ‘women are not permitted the functions of an altar server’.

The decision came in the form of a circular letter[7] from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to presidents of episcopal conferences on 15 March 1994, which announced a 30 June 1992 authentic interpretation (confirmed on 11 July 1992 by Pope John Paul II) from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts. This authentic interpretation said that canon 230 §2 states that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay men and women. The circular letter, written by the cardinal-prefect of the Congregation, also clarified that canon 230 §2 has a permissive and not a preceptive character, that is, it allows, but does not require, the use of female altar servers. Thus it was for each diocesan bishop to decide whether to allow them in his diocese.

so what in your opinion is the right thing to do?

WE MUST GO BY THE BIBLE ,WHY DON’T CATHOLIC GO BY IT 100%, IT IS GOD WORDS .IF THE K J BIBLE IS THE FIRST WHY DO COTHOLIC HAVE THERE OWN ,IF YOU CAN’T
ADD TO THE BIBLE WHY ARE THEY DIFFERENT ?

 

[maurin]

WE MUST GO BY THE BIBLE ,WHY DON’T CATHOLIC GO BY IT 100%, IT IS GOD WORDS .IF THE K J BIBLE IS THE FIRST WHY DO COTHOLIC HAVE THERE OWN ,IF YOU CAN’T
ADD TO THE BIBLE WHY ARE THEY DIFFERENT ?

where in the Bible does it say we must go by the Bible? Where in the Bible does it say that the kjv is first? Or do you in reality not go by the Bible, but by the traditions of men?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

WE MUST GO BY THE BIBLE ,WHY DON’T CATHOLIC GO BY IT 100%, IT IS GOD WORDS .IF THE K J BIBLE IS THE FIRST WHY DO COTHOLIC HAVE THERE OWN ,IF YOU CAN’T
ADD TO THE BIBLE WHY ARE THEY DIFFERENT ?

Tina, the KJV is not “the first” – the Greek and Hebrew scriptures are the first. The KJV isn’t even the first English translation of the Bible. We have to go by Sacred Tradition of which the Bible is one part. At least, that’s what St. Paul tells us.

Deacon Ed

 

[meshktenye]

May the love of the Lord remain in your hear forever,

In short, I have to say that the allowance of females to serve at the altar has been disastrous to the faith of many.

I’ve been reading this thread and I feel that one critically important topic has missed. We must remember that some priests fondled altar boys sexually. While I know it was a relatively small percentage of priests who engaged in this illicit activity with altar boys, it caused much harm to the boys in question and it caused a hugh scandal for the church. How much worse would it be if this now started happening to altar girls. How much worse would it be if these these girls become pregnant. Don’t say it can’t or won’t happen. Ultimately priests are still human men prome to sexual desires. I know some controls have been put in place, but to be honest I don’t believe they will be enough. Young kids are trusting and impressionable. They look up to the priest as an authority figure and even more - as the representative of Christ on earth. Beyond all biblical, traditional, and doctrinal arguments I believe this is the most important reason NOT to have altar girls.

Steve

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I’ve been reading this thread and I feel that one critically important topic has missed. We must remember that some priests fondled altar boys sexually. While I know it was a relatively small percentage of priests who engaged in this illicit activity with altar boys, it caused much harm to the boys in question and it caused a hugh scandal for the church. How much worse would it be if this now started happening to altar girls. How much worse would it be if these these girls become pregnant. Don’t say it can’t or won’t happen. Ultimately priests are still human men prome to sexual desires. I know some controls have been put in place, but to be honest I don’t believe they will be enough. Young kids are trusting and impressionable. They look up to the priest as an authority figure and even more - as the representative of Christ on earth. Beyond all biblical, traditional, and doctrinal arguments I believe this is the most important reason NOT to have altar girls.

Using this logic it would seem we shouldn’t have young people serve at all!

Deacon Ed

 

[Just_Lurking]

I’ve been reading this thread and I feel that one critically important topic has missed. We must remember that some priests fondled altar boys sexually. While I know it was a relatively small percentage of priests who engaged in this illicit activity with altar boys, it caused much harm to the boys in question and it caused a hugh scandal for the church. How much worse would it be if this now started happening to altar girls. How much worse would it be if these these girls become pregnant. Don’t say it can’t or won’t happen. Ultimately priests are still human men prome to sexual desires. I know some controls have been put in place, but to be honest I don’t believe they will be enough. Young kids are trusting and impressionable. They look up to the priest as an authority figure and even more - as the representative of Christ on earth. Beyond all biblical, traditional, and doctrinal arguments I believe this is the most important reason NOT to have altar girls.

Steve

This is actually an argument for not having altar boys or altar girls period, but only having adults over the age of 25 serving at the altar.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Using this logic it would seem we shouldn’t have young people serve at all!

Deacon Ed

You beat me to it!

 

[IridescentAngel]

Of course the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit. But, honestly, what do you really think Jesus would say? Do you think he would reject a woman or girl who wants to serve Him? He was very accepting of women. It’s the Church that had (and has) issue with it.

Forgive me if I’m out of line. But I’m a devout Catholic who has been a Catholic all my life. My husband walked out on me and our infant baby 11 1/2 years ago, and I haven’t dated or looked at another man since. From that time, I had to totally take care of myself and my child with help from no one. I was very successful, and I am very blessed. But after what I’ve done as a woman, I don’t have much tolerance for for women being “set aside” anywhere.

 

[weepixie71]

WE MUST GO BY THE BIBLE ,WHY DON’T CATHOLIC GO BY IT 100%, IT IS GOD WORDS .IF THE K J BIBLE IS THE FIRST WHY DO COTHOLIC HAVE THERE OWN ,IF YOU CAN’T
ADD TO THE BIBLE WHY ARE THEY DIFFERENT ?

since catholicism was the first religion, the catholic bible was the excepted bible for almost 1500 yrs, when martin luther started the protestant revolution.

 

[meshktenye]

Bless the Lord oh my soul,

Using this logic it would seem we shouldn’t have young people serve at all!

Deacon Ed

Well I’m not saying that - but don’t you think it should still be addressed as a component of this debate?

Steve

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Well I’m not saying that - but don’t you think it should still be addressed as a component of this debate?

Why? You acknowledge that this is anomalous behavior. Some of the priests who were accused of sexual abuse were abusing girls long before there were female altar servers. There seems to be no justification for conflating the two issues.

Deacon Ed

 

[Layman]

Men have always offered sacrifices on the altar, the ‘high place’. Women trying to wangle and force their way up there is an impertinence.

A priestess has historically been a very different creature. Women menstruate. They have serious mood swings. I’d guess the Jews saw what happened in neighbouring cultures that had priestesses, and forbade it.

Whereas with men, what you see is largely what you get. One mood, all the time. He goes in, does the job, goes home, and forgets about it. He won’t be simmering for days about what such-and-such a one said or did.

Men also are direct. Is there an enemy at the gate? Destroy it! Is there something wrong? Fix it, now! Simple, direct, no fuss, have a laugh afterwards and take your ease.

Such a creature is ideal in the serious technical operation of performing a ritual to invoke the presence of The King Of Kings and Lord of Hosts.

Primitive cultures know this. Men and women have clearly defined ritual roles. They know what works, because appeasing their gods (demons, archangels, fairies, tribal thought-forms or whatever) is vital to their survival. If they don’t, the crops fail.

The first principle of engineering is: if it works, leave it alone. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Because our religion, like our culture, has become heavily intellectualised, we can put forward perverse notions and entertain them, like females in the Holy Of Holies. There’s also the phenomenon of ‘buggin’s turn’: “Aw, let her have a go, it’s not fairrrrrr”.

I was surprised to read recently that our Pope, as cardinal Ratzinger, was very keen on the second Vatican council and it’s likely fruits. Now, what do you suppose has happened to cause him to become such a notable conservative in recent years, hmmm?

PS: Just thought of this one: Which saint, archangel or other Heavenly being told Man to make such sweeping changes to the main ritual of our religion?

We argue over what the Popes meant and what the bishops can or can’t do, but did Jesus or Mary appear to anyone and say “Make these changes”, like Fatima and Lourdes?

Did anyone run these changes by The Boss and get definite clearance before going ahead? Seems to me it’s the sort of big change that should have come from a revelation, and nothing less.

 

[ASD]

How about the Church did not see a need to retain a cultural practice as a canonical regulation?

I liked the comparison made by Deacon Ed - women can’t be fathers, men can’t be mothers, women can’t be priests), but …

If our procedure is to throw out the “cultural practice” that seem out-of-date or make us seem kinda square, then watch out. I’m afraid it’s just a matter of time until “mother” and “father” begin to be avoided the way some people avoid “he,” “him,” and “his” now, preferring ungrammatical “they.” I’m afraid that the commissars are going to declare that “mother” and “father” should be replaced by gender-neutral “parent” or “care-giver.” Then, when those “cultural practices” are gone, what will we say?

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[savienu]

Of course the Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit. But, honestly, what do you really think Jesus would say? Do you think he would reject a woman or girl who wants to serve Him? He was very accepting of women. It’s the Church that had (and has) issue with it.

Forgive me if I’m out of line. But I’m a devout Catholic who has been a Catholic all my life. My husband walked out on me and our infant baby 11 1/2 years ago, and I haven’t dated or looked at another man since. From that time, I had to totally take care of myself and my child with help from no one. I was very successful, and I am very blessed. But after what I’ve done as a woman, I don’t have much tolerance for for women being “set aside” anywhere.

I am sorry your husband walked out on you. My heart goes out to you and I think you are an amazing woman for raising your child on your own. However, I disagree with you that women were set aside in the Church, especially if you mean because they couldn’t be servers. There are roles for men in the church and there are roles for women. It has only been a little over a decade that women have been allowed to serve at the older. St. Terese the Little Flower did not serve at the altar; St. Maria Goretti did not serve at the altar. Our mothers did not serve at the altar. Are we really to believe that these women were set aside because they couldn’t serve the Priest at the altar? Women are the heart of the Church!

 

[weepixie71]

Give me some verses where it states that she is in the crowd.

Ok then what really shocks me is why you question our Pope on this matter. The Church states its position and yet you don’t believe that the Pope has acted infallible!
Or is this a tradition matter. Tradition has changed many times through the years. Maybe it is change you struggle with.

first of all female servers is not dogma! so i dont have to agree with the pope on this matter. as a matter of fact even the bishops can disagree on this and not permit his diocese to have female servers which there are a couple.

as for mary in the crowd we know this from bl. anne catherine emmerich. but if you are a bible alone person, you still know that they talk about Jesus with this His apostles when he preaches but never do they say Jesus Mary and His apostles. since the priest represents Jesus Christ then there only should be with him are future priests like his disciples. that is if your intent is to fully to your best knowledge to try imitate Christ at your mass.

 

[jw9495]

I find that many Catholics are confused when it comes to tradition and what exactly Sacred Tradition means. It can be a difficult concept to grasp. When we as Catholics speak of or refer to Tradition or Sacred Tradition we are talking about a specific body of unchanging divine revelation. This would be different from traditions that include customs, disciplines, or practices that possibly change from time to time or place to place. i.e. , to pray facing a certain way or fast on certain days, or altar girls. Sacred Tradition is simply not “doing it the way we’ve always done it”. Check out your CCC.